InMusic buying Moog?

[Doerfler]

I can't remember every post in this thread so maybe it had been discussed earlier.  This is not the first time Moog Music has been sold.

When I first met Dr. Moog is the mid 90's he was in the process of starting "Big Briar" which preceded the current  Moog Music when that was established in 2002, or somewhere around that time.

Let's all hope for the best. 

 

[Anderton]

Just be thankful that inMusic is part of the music industry. The main problem with venture capital-type investors is they don't realize the music industry is a FASHION INDUSTRY. The rules are different than for industries that produce hardware or software widgets designed to solve day-to-day business issues. When investors eventually find out they can't make significant long-term money from the music industry without understanding its dynamics, they bail.

 

Here are some of the other investments from Francisco Partners, who invested in NI. Do any of these products have anything in common with the music software company that created Kontakt?

• Drawbridge is a premier cybersecurity software and services firm specializing in the needs of hedge fund and private equity managers.
• Reciprocity’s mission is to turn corporate compliance from a cost center into a valuable strategic asset.
• Glorious is a manufacturer of computer accessories that include a keyboard, mouse, mouse pad, and lubed panda switches.
• Acoustic is an independent marketing cloud with the open platform needed for success in a dynamic world.
• TouchBistro is an iPad-based restaurant point-of-sale system enabling owners to manage reservations and take orders instantly.
• GreenSlate is a cloud-based accounting and payroll software platform for the entertainment industry.
• Terran Orbital is a manufacturer of small satellites primarily serving the United States and Allied aerospace and defense industries.
• Veson Nautical is a Boston-based provider of maritime commercial management and trading software.
• AndHealth helps people reverse chronic diseases.
• NZXT builds PC hardware for enthusiasts and gamers globally.
• MATRIXX Software - provider of a digital commerce platform designed to monetize 5G.
• Paradigm offers legal software solutions that help you manage, automate, and grow your firm.
• Kyruus provides health systems with search and scheduling solutions to connect patients with the right providers across all access points.
• Eventbrite develops an online platform that lets users find and create events.
• Quantros is a leading provider of cloud-based solutions and information services that advance healthcare quality and safety performance.

[DovJ]

This is not at all exciting to me. When a great brand is absorbed by a mediocre one, you end up with “bean-counters” determining and often limiting how much influence the real music people have over the product. 
 

I own a Headrush MX5 guitar modeler-pedal. It does the job, after lots of tweaking. If that sounds like a lukewarm non-endorsement, you heard it right. I’m pining for a Quad Cortex!

 

Owners of Headrush products complain about the non-responsive Headrush product support people. Plus, the release of a new generation of Headrush (the “Prime”) with not a word of support for the MX5 or about bringing the new capabilities, mediocre though they seem to be, to the still-new MX5, doesn’t inspire lots of confidence in the longevity of products.

 

Contrast that with Yamaha’s purchase of Córdoba, owners of my beloved Guild guitars brand. I’m confident that Yamaha will develop Guild wonderfully, based on my experiences with my CP4 and YC61 keyboards, and by the passion other guitarists have for the Line6 products. Yamaha is clearly run by people who understand and actually care about musical instruments. 

When I needed my Sweetwater-purchased CP4 serviced here in Israel, it was no problem at all. The parts and expertise were readily available, despite that the CP4 was discontinued several years ago. 

 

[Theo Verelst]

Artists tools like musical instruments can be of great value to big tech companies, like software to hardware, like the cloud to the government, like equity to collectors, but the added value in tech usually is in research and development to make a form of improvement over all that is. Dr. Bob probably didn't feel like creating other added value than he did in the course of the main analog and digital synthesis he worked on. The "Moog" film I bought when it came out is pretty clear on that.

 

T

[GRollins]

JazzPiano88,

You appear to have missed my point entirely. The Ravenswood/Constellation buyout was simply an example (one of scores we could dissect) of what can happen when a good business (in this case, Ravenswood) is bought by a consortium. The verbiage is always the same: This is the start of a whole new chapter, onwards and upwards, blah, blah, blah. I knew as soon as I saw the press release that Ravenswood was being bought that it was curtains. Sadly, I was right, and the world lost one of the best zinfandel lineups. Now, Moog appears to be following that same path and I don't think it's going to end well. It's not that there's a direct link between wineries and synth makers, it's that there's a very, very long list of companies being bought out and run into the ground.

 

As far as 51% being greater than 49%...er...well, yes. That's kinda my point. The employees had little or no say in the sale because they could be outvoted. Moog has said they're "employee owned" for years, but those two words don't give the percentage. If, as we're being told, the employees' total percentage was only 49%, they could be outvoted, and they may be feeling a little bruised right now. Just speculation on my part. I could be wrong. I wasn't at any meetings. Maybe the employees were enthusiastic about the sale.

 

ksoper,

I've long since given up trying to predict the value of things in the future. My first bass was a Danelectro. It was a tawdry little piece of junk that didn't play well, didn't sound good, and looked like crap after I'd played it a couple of years due to the copper flecks in the finish turning green with corrosion. Today they're worth a tidy sum of money. Go figure. Wish I still had it so I could eBay the silly thing.

 

I'm not going to speculate on the value of Moog Ones. There's no telling. One thing's for sure--if I think it'll be worth a fortune and buy one with the intent to sell it at a profit later, the value will fall through the floor. If I think they'll sell for a hundred dollars in the future, then they'll probably be worth a fortune. If I was to venture a guess, I'd say the Model D and maybe Voyager would be better bets, investment-wise...however, having said that, the Grandmother and Matriarch will probably take the lead, right?

 

When the history of Moog is written at some point down the road, I don't expect that the One will be regarded as the pinnacle of their product line.

 

Grey

[CyberGene]

For me there will always be Moog and the rest of the synth companies. And when I hear something like what Wendy Carlos did with the Moog Modular on Switched on Bach, or the Minimoog in the Pink Floyd records, it's just magic and no other synth comes close. That's a personal and a very biased opinion, of course.

 

However, all that being said, when I can (and I did) purchase a Behringer Model D for €250 that sounds exactly like the records (yeah, yeah, it's probably not 100% the same as a a real Minimoog but then there are no two real Minimoogs that sound exactly the same), then something is really wrong with Moog's business model. When a reissued Minimoog Model D costs €6000, then apparently that business model is not sutainable. I'd love to own a real Minimoog but sorry, I just can't 😕

[analogika]

10 hours ago, RABid said:

No. For most music instrument manufacturers the pandemic, along with work at home and government handouts, the pandemic was a boon. But, you had to have products that fell into the mid range price items that people were suddenly buying. I would guess that the following worker shortage hit them hard.

"Traditional" instruments went through the roof INITIALLY, but as any music store employee will tell you, the pandemic KILLED supply. 

Hardest-hit were small electronics-based outfits that didn't have the clout to buy themselves to the front of the cue for parts supplies. 

[Tusker]

3 hours ago, CyberGene said:

For me there will always be Moog and the rest of the synth companies. And when I hear something like what Wendy Carlos did with the Moog Modular on Switched on Bach, or the Minimoog in the Pink Floyd records, it's just magic and no other synth comes close. That's a personal and a very biased opinion, of course.

 

However, all that being said, when I can (and I did) purchase a Behringer Model D for €250 that sounds exactly like the records (yeah, yeah, it's probably not 100% the same as a a real Minimoog but then there are no two real Minimoogs that sound exactly the same), then something is really wrong with Moog's business model. When a reissued Minimoog Model D costs €6000, then apparently that business model is not sutainable. I'd love to own a real Minimoog but sorry, I just can't 😕

 

I think you place your finger on the larger problem.

 

The first Moogs represented a ground breaking change in human expression at the artist-level. Bob Moog was rewarded for it. Now companies are rewarded for increasing convenience at the consumer or hobby-artist level. We need a paradigm shift in musical expression as well as tech, if superior profit margins are to be enjoyed by inventive pioneers again. The logic of these mergers (actually acquisitions) is to flow artist-level technologies into broader consumer markets where you hope to compensate for lower margins with higher volumes.

[RABid]

3 hours ago, analogika said:

Hardest-hit were small electronics-based outfits that didn't have the clout to buy themselves to the front of the cue for parts supplies. 

I know Intellijel got hit really hard. Scales was out of stock for over two years. They redesigned some products to adjust to chip supplies, but some Eurorack manufacturers gave up and closed shop.

[GRollins]

I used to work in high end audio. Absolutely loved it (though not the guy I worked for, but that's another story). In that day and time, you could buy a cutting edge, best-of-the-best-of-the-best stereo system for about, let's say, two year's salary for an average guy. Nowadays speakers alone cost two or three years salary. Just the speakers. No, there's not been some crazy advance in space age parts or materials that would cause that sort of inflation. Drivers are still drivers. Transistors are still transistors. Tubes are still tubes. Transformers are still transformers. Yes, their prices have gone up some, just like everything else, but not that much. What happened is that the hi-fi industry got greedy. Really greedy. They've priced themselves out of the market for normal people.

 

The musical instrument industry is in danger of doing the same thing. Deciding how to price products is an inexact art. Do you price an item at $1000 and sell 10,000 of them, or do you price it at $5000 and sell...what? 1000? At some point, you leave ordinary folks behind because they can no longer justify the prices you're asking. Will you still sell units? Yeah, of course. Some. Maybe you sell one to Jordan Rudess. He can write it off as a business expense and more power to him. Most people can't legitimately take that deduction. It comes out of their hip pocket and means there's less money to buy food.

 

Moog has chosen to position themselves on the upper end of the musical instrument price range. They have a name and the reputation to go with it and feel that they have a valid business model. But what if they're wrong? What if they've priced themselves out of the market? And what if their products, e.g. the One, aren't sufficiently awesome to match the asking price. Maybe they sell half as many as they needed to sell to keep the lights on. Then what? Drop the price? That might help move product, but at the risk of riling customers who paid the higher price earlier. Don't just look at today's customers, look at what follows. If you release a new product, some percentage of your potential customer base is going to say, "Nah. Not going to buy one now. I'll wait until they drop the price." If you've got a strong enough business, that can work. If you're on the edge, it's deadly.

 

Moog has a lot of competition now that they didn't used to have. It's imperative for them to have top flight gear at attainable prices if they're going to stay relevant. From my perspective, it looks like they're losing the battle.

 

Grey

[ksoper]

9 hours ago, GRollins said:

ksoper,

I've long since given up trying to predict the value of things in the future...

 

I was being facetious, hence the "/s" tag at the end of the line. I never bought an instrument with the expectation of an increase in value. However, looking at the ridiculous money people are asking for what I consider to be a toy (Juno 106) it wouldn't surprise me that the One at least held its value. My other Moog synths (and a few moogerfoogers) sell used for more than I paid. We'll see.  

 

 

[ksoper]

While it's moot now, this article from the New York Times, June 10, 2015, describes the mechanics behind the employee ownership deal. It may help clear up some misconceptions. 

 

Moog Music Gives Employees More Control  (paywall)

[David Emm]

I feel like I'm in another dimension here. My first synth was a Minimoog, which I ran through a distortion pedal and a delay. I learned the usual things a total noob learns, inch by inch. I later took up two Multimoogs, which were super sweet. Fast forward like a sumbitch, to the recent moment where I bought Cherry Audio's Memorymode/(moog). After digging in for a bit, I decided that was all the Moog I needed now. Its has The Voice to my satisfaction.

 

I'd like to see Moog Music stay healthy for many reasons, but I'm also past my serious, personal Moog era. It feels like a mild cheat to go with a 3rd-party software version, but the great man himself once said (IIRC) the future wouldn't be about the sounds as much, but more the controller interfaces. He sure had a far-reaching vision, yet he remained amazed at those who played his synths, so I'm too much of a synth romantic to swallow the corporate glop much. I guess that kind of goes with having seen Bernie Worrell cook on a Mini live. Space cadet glow.   

[Radagast]

When Gibson guitars bought Oberheim, that psychopathic a-hole Henry J. destroyed Oberheim and some cool products in the pipeline.  I hope Moog’s new owner isn’t like Gibson.

[Mark Schmieder]

The thing that surprises me is that it wasn't working. I know dozens of people who had never considered synths until the "Mother" series came along, and they were all over that as their first synth purchases in many cases. It felt like a well-priced series appealing to a similar crowd as Korg's electronica/etc. stuff (Electribe etc.).

 

Someone said they were late to plug-ins, but I don't think that is true. Didn't they do the UAD plug-ins modeled after their stuff? That came in the early to mid 2000's as I recall.

[Moonglow]

I’m sure this has been brought up in other threads, but I wish Moog had come out with a more affordable poly, along the lines of the OB-6 and P-6. Maybe the new owners will recognize this gap in their product line.

[CyberGene]

19 minutes ago, Moonglow said:

I’m sure this has been brought up in other threads, but I wish Moog had come out with a more affordable poly, along the lines of the OB-6 and P-6.

Well, there's exactly what you want, the Trigon-6 😀

[Tusker]

56 minutes ago, Moonglow said:

I’m sure this has been brought up in other threads, but I wish Moog had come out with a more affordable poly, along the lines of the OB-6 and P-6. Maybe the new owners will recognize this gap in their product line.

 

👍 This would be really wonderful to me. They could try a creative experimental synth using the brilliant Animoog sound sources so as not to damage the main brand. It could keep the cost down and increase the timbral range radically. Once you pass the digital stuff through a moog filter and VCA it sounds like a moog anyway.

[RABid]

On 6/14/2023 at 10:36 PM, Doerfler said:

This is not the first time Moog Music has been sold.

When I first met Dr. Moog is the mid 90's he was in the process of starting "Big Briar" which preceded the current  Moog Music when that was established in 2002, or somewhere around that time.

For some reason I had forgotten that. Getting old, I guess. Anyway, when I bought my brand new MemoryMoog the controversy was that the new owners of Moog pushed it out the door before it was ready. Even Bob Moog said it needed a few more months of development. I felt it in the instability of the oscillators and the extra rudimentary MIDI implementation. My early unit transmitted and received on all channels and needed to be tuned once a week.

[GovernorSilver]

SonicTalk discusses the Moog acquisition.  Video should be cued up to the Moog topic.  Nick Batt brings up the Moog One as their ARP Avatar

 

 

[David Emm]

On 6/16/2023 at 9:58 AM, Moonglow said:

I’m sure this has been brought up in other threads, but I wish Moog had come out with a more affordable poly, along the lines of the OB-6 and P-6. Maybe the new owners will recognize this gap in their product line.

 

I think that a certain number of people have been spoiled by increasingly inexpensive power synths like the Cobalt 8, so they want a $3499 Trigon-6 for $1000 or less. The scale of things has notably changed, forcing those premium Moogs to compete with software and numerous budget or boutique instruments, most of which have meaty sonic footprints. The Trigon IS Moog's more affordable poly. I can imagine a more trim version with no sequencer and one effect or none, but it would take some creative savvy to get that just right and still be profitable. 

 

Never mind the human cost involved in all of this, either. I'm about to have dinner.          

[Muad’Dib]

The Triton 6 is Sequential not Moog. 

[David Emm]

10 hours ago, Muad’Dib said:

The Triton 6 is Sequential not Moog. 

 

True. I should have been more clear: it strikes me as the synth Moog *would* offer if it tried to aim for more of a "budget" market. A Korg Prologue 16 runs about $1700. Its hard to imagine a polyphonic Moog at that price. What would one-fourth of a One look like? 🤔 

[Muad’Dib]

I remember someone telling me the Matriarch is polyphonic, but it’s not. It's Paraphonic!  I think it would be hard to make an affordable true polyphonic analog synth. Even when Dave Smith released the Prophet 5 it had a $3,000.00 price tag.  Analog synths are more expensive to build, at least in this country.  I’m not exactly sure what Uli did to make an affordable analog synth. With the model D he eliminated the keyboard, and reduced the size. Prior to that was Clavia producing virtual analog. With the Nord Lead 1. Priced at $1,900.00?  I’m not sure of the actual price?  When Yamaha released the DX-7 it was easier to manufacture a polyphonic keyboard.  Of course when Norlin Music bought Moog in the 1970’s they were able to produce duophonic synths, but make them a bit more affordable.  Arturia’s Polybrute is $2,699.00.  

 

You are right with the KORG proluge 16.  If Moog were to manufacture a poly synth they would have to cut the keyboard from 61 to 49 keys. 

[ProfD]

Name brand recognition is the main reason a Moog, Sequential or Oberheim subtractive synth is  priced so high.  Otherwise, it's the same 50-year old technology.   

 

Because there are so many cheaper alternatives capable of delivering similar results from sonic and musical perspective, I'm not surprised that Moog Music had to be sold. 

 

OTOH, I'd imagine that Sequential and Oberheim are manufacturing just enough products especially with their poly synths to realize a profit even at their price point.  

 

Boutique instrument manufacturers are definitely running a high wire act considering the competition.  Nord has done brilliantly in that regard.😎

[AnotherScott]

11 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Name brand recognition is the main reason a Moog, Sequential or Oberheim subtractive synth is  priced so high.  Otherwise, it's the same 50-year old technology. 😎

Acoustic piano technology is even older than that... and yet still, a digital recreation is not quite the same thing. No digital synth sounds as Moogy as a Moog made with its 50 year old tech. As for how many of the buyers truly appreciate the subtle differences vs. just wanting something with the name, I couldn't say. (Though there's also the option of buying some of that same 50 year old tech at lower price from Behringer, albeit with different ergonomics.)

[ProfD]

20 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Acoustic piano technology is even older than that... and yet still, a digital recreation is not quite the same thing. No digital synth sounds as Moogy as a Moog made with its 50 year old tech. As for how many of the buyers truly appreciate the subtle differences vs. just wanting something with the name, I couldn't say. (Though there's also the option of buying some of that same 50 year old tech at lower price from Behringer, albeit with different ergonomics.)

The acoustic piano comes up. 😁

 

The reality is that an acoustic piano is impractical for most musicians to buy, haul around and/or request on a rider. 

 

Vintage synths require a certain amount of maintenance and costly to fix. Very few musicians haul around and/or request them on riders either.

 

Digital technology became "good enough" in capturing the vibe of sounds that vintage synths fell out of favor for for a few decades before the analog synth resurgence. 

 

Moog, DSi/Sequential and Oberheim went through very lean decades before their instruments were brought back for a 2nd act.

 

Yet, the cost those instruments is beyond practical for most musicians.  As a result, only a handful of enthusiasts can afford to buy those one trick mono and poly synths.

 

Otherwise, on most stages and studios around the world, musicians will be using digital facsimiles instead of the real thing i.e. acoustic piano, electromechanical KBs and vintage synths.

 

Don't get me wrong...I think Moog, DSI/Sequential and Oberheim do have a unique sound.  Fine instruments in their own right. 

 

IMO, for the music most folks play and compose nowadays, that vintage sound either isn't required and/or it doesn't cut through well enough to make a difference.  A digital facsimile will suffice.😎

[AnotherScott]

43 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Vintage synths require a certain amount of maintenance and costly to fix. Very few musicians haul around and/or request them on riders either.

I wasn't talking about vintage synths, I was talking about the current Moog/Sequential/Oberheims... not vintage, but still largely made with essentially 50 year old tech.  But I agree with the rest.

[ProfD]

55 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I wasn't talking about vintage synths, I was talking about the current Moog/Sequential/Oberheims... not vintage, but still largely made with essentially 50 year old tech.  But I agree with the rest.

Understood. 

 

My main point was their newer poly synths cost as much as they do is because of the name brand.  It has little or nothing to do with the technology.

 

Regardless of where the trees are cut down, metal formed and circuit board printed, there is a reasonable amount of profit built into a Prophet or OB or One.😁😎

[AnotherScott]

43 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Understood. 

 

My main point was their newer poly synths cost as much as they do is because of the name brand.  It has little or nothing to do with the technology.

 

Regardless of where the trees are cut down, metal formed and circuit board printed, there is a reasonable amount of profit built into a Prophet or OB or One.😁😎

 

I guess Behringer shows how cheaply these things could be done, assuming cheapest possible sourcing/fabrication and lowest possible original R&D. Which is not to diss Behringer, they have a market and serve it well, but I wouldn't say that the others have no advantages to offer, even if you have to pay the premium for them. "Reasonable amount of profit" is a relative term, it can need to be high (as a proportion of selling price) if you're selling boutique items that will sell in low quantities but still have to financially support the operational/development/support overhead of the company. So I would not necessarily be quick to assume that those brands' products are "over-priced." It's a niche market.