Super Locrian

[CyberGene]

59 minutes ago, Legatoboy said:

on any Dominant 7  you can play the diminished scale a half step above the root of the dominant  you are playing

That’s somehow true but in jazz it’s more often played over a b9 dominant chords. It won’t fit well, say a #11 chord (because those are usually having non-altered 9th) or a sus4 chord which will have even more clashes. In fact even an alt chord may have clashes because while it has the b9, it also has a b13 and b5 whereas the diminished would have these non-altered. But sometimes “clashes” are intentional and make it sound “outside”, it’s ultimately about what you find sounds good to you 👍🏻

[Floyd Tatum]

I'm not that good at, like, thinking.   So I asked Bing Chatby to "tell me a joke containing a pun about jazz melodic minor".    Shit (she/he/it) replied:  “Why did the jazz musician refuse to play the melodic minor scale? He didn’t want to harmo-nize.” 😄

 

Not bad!   The happy face was part of the reply, by the way.   The dash between harmo and nize might have been overkill, as in "ok, Bingy-Boy, we get the joke..."

 

[gasit]

This is Legatoboy in an alternate signin I have on my iPhone…Well I like the outside sound of both the half step diminished scale and the Super Locrian .. as a memory device for quick reference in any key for the Super Locrian I  think and visualize a tonic minor scale (a major 7 with a flat 3 ) a half step above the root (I got used to that with my diminished sub studies with Larry Bluth rest his musical soul)…and when I figured out what Super Locrian was , that instinct  already in place from that ,  I just substitute and visualized   a tonic minor scale (major 7th w/a minor 3rd) a half step above the 7 ‘ s root to get to an Altered Scale whenever I see Alt on a 7 in charts  .. a thin quick mental reference for the Super Locrian scale … I understand the flat 7b9 point that was made earlier but I want those degrees to clash … still even understating the theory with these subs there is still I find a sensitivity in their application you need in slower tempos especially  … they are not always appropriate  …I m starting to hear them as scale versions of passing diminished chords … both the Diminished and the Super Locrian sub scales.. the sort of are 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gasit]

13 hours ago, Floyd Tatum said:

I'm not that good at, like, thinking.   So I asked Bing Chatby to "tell me a joke containing a pun about jazz melodic minor".    Shit (she/he/it) replied:  “Why did the jazz musician refuse to play the melodic minor scale? He didn’t want to harmo-nize.” 😄

 

Not bad!   The happy face was part of the reply, by the way.   The dash between harmo and nize might have been overkill, as in "ok, Bingy-Boy, we get the joke..."

 

Too much thinking will make one ill …I’ve seen it in MIS…  has to be just the right amount for the individual... to much  mind out there as it is.. defining this and dat…I’m of 2 minds about thinking myself… I remember the 3 minor scales with 3 minor versions of Louie Louie! So, has to be just the right amount of thought … it’s like salt and blood pressure 

[Floyd Tatum]

Just came to my senses and tried to tone down my post a bit (ha-ha!  See what I did there???  No?   Ok, never mind)  -  but alas, I was too late - it was no longer editable.

 

At what point is a post un-editable?  When the post is 48 hrs old?  When someone quotes your post?   Or a combination - if it's not quoted, and it's less than 48hrs old, you can edit it?

 

[MathOfInsects]

Barry Harris once taught me a chord so secret that even he didn't know it. 

[Floyd Tatum]

On 4/30/2023 at 2:46 PM, Jazz+ said:

 Instead of "Super Locrian," for many years I have played the secret scale that Barry Harris gave me.

 

You are super lucky - I had to pay for my Barry Harris Secret Super-Scale© !

 

All kidding aside, Mr. Harris' approach is a wonderful thing.  
 

[pinkfloydcramer]

A few Sundays ago, on my way home from a gig I stopped at a dive bar and ran into another musician. Over a couple of drinks (bartender was an excellent Mixolydian) we talked about modes. The guy was out of his Phrygian mind! 

[CyberGene]

I was gonna ask what that secret scale is but then I realized it’s a gotcha trap and a running gag around the forum where anybody asking that question would be answered: it’s secret, didn’t you read! 😀

[Floyd Tatum]

16 hours ago, CyberGene said:

I was gonna ask what that secret scale is but then I realized it’s a gotcha trap and a running gag around the forum where anybody asking that question would be answered: it’s secret, didn’t you read! 😀

 

Ok, it's not really a secret (unless Jazz+ knows something I don't!), it just seems that way when you're trying to understand the late BH's method.  If you like Mr. Harris' playing, are a student of jazz, and are willing to put in the time and effort, then eventually, everything will be revealed.  It's not for beginners, IMHO, although, there's nothing stopping a beginner.  It's more intermediate/advanced.  Diatonic, modes, diminished, upper partials, altered dominants, etc.  Then you probably ready for the BH method.  Just my opinion of course.

 

Just think, one day, after enormous sums of money spent on decades of post-secondary music education, thousands of soul-destroying gigs,  one day you too will be able to make sardonic quips about esoteric dominant seventh scales with the big kids!  😁

[MathOfInsects]

Barry Harris taught me cribbage. 

[CyberGene]

18 minutes ago, Floyd Tatum said:

If you like Mr. Harris' playing, are a student of jazz, and are willing to put in the time and effort, then eventually, everything will be revealed.

I see, thanks. I will have to check him since I only know him as a name, never listened to any of his music. But I’m also not that interested in developing myself in jazz anymore. I realized I was not destined to be a good jazz improviser anyway, so I switched styles, but in jazz my experience is mostly around the more standard stuff like applying melodic minor, diminished scale, etc, all that virtually coming from Mark Levine’s method. My question regarding the Barry Harris secret scale was rather out of curiosity rather than any real need since nowadays I find myself playing either classical music at home, or pop/rock/experimental with other people 😀

 

10 years ago I would give a kidney to learn playing post-bop, say Herbie Hancock and Chick Corea but who wouldn’t 😀

[Docbop]

I feel Barry Harris is the foundation to start learning Jazz from, if you try to treat it like rules then you will drag yourself into the muck.   Barry stuff is meant to be learned the way he did hanging out with Monk, Bird, and Dizzy.  His workshop he demonstrated an idea and people listened, then Barry had people play the idea and didn't matter if you were a newbie and only could play the most basic scale the idea was based on, or a experienced player incorporating the idea into lines or a song everyone played.    So like the old masters Barry was all about listen, listen, listen and try.   

 

What I notice of the last decade or so going to masterclasses and hangs with great musicians they all eventually say they spend time in Barry Harris workshops.   I think a lot of make Barry's concepts and make them more complex they really are and I would say Barry's teaches are more observations not concepts from his time living with Monk and hanging with the creator of what is called Bebop. 

[MathOfInsects]

I saw Barry Harris drinking a pina colada at Trader Vic's.

[Theo Verelst]

On the original putting forth of a nice scale and it's handy playing on a keyboard (guitarists will find other scales handy): if you take the notes that "fit" a certain chord, for whatever trivial or far fetching harmonic reasons, mathematically there are just a number of possibilities before you repeat or play scales that already have a name, so its not a field without limits. The number of complicated addition chords that can follow on another together with the unique scales that somehow fit the sequence is a fair number of possibilities.

 

T

 

[SMcD]

On 4/27/2023 at 7:30 PM, guzman said:

There is a simple code I use for applying melodic minor over dominant 7th chords.  Which melodic minor to use depends on what position the dominant 7th chord is.

 

I’ll use the key of C for reference, since everyone likes the people’s key.

 

Dominant 7 13/b9 (almost always a V chord) - Play melodic minor down a whole step from the dominant chord root.  So for the key of C, the chord would be a G7 13/b9 - you would play an F melodic minor.

 

 

I get everything in your post except this first one. F melodic minor doesn't contain the third of the G13(b9) chord. Wouldn't you want an 
F diminished scale? That's got the b9 (A-flat) and the 13 (E-natural), as well as the B-natural.

[guzman]

On 5/4/2023 at 12:02 PM, SMcD said:

I get everything in your post except this first one. F melodic minor doesn't contain the third of the G13(b9) chord. Wouldn't you want an 
F diminished scale? That's got the b9 (A-flat) and the 13 (E-natural), as well as the B-natural.

Yeah man.  F diminished is very cool for that chord.  The F melodic minor does miss the B natural, but it also just works - at least to my ears.  YMMV.  I was simply trying to show another application for the melodic minor scale.  Thanks for posting.

[TommyRude]

being a non-reader, I thought this thread was about a new electric car

[guzman]

11 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

 

I wrote out a couple possible two bar melodies on a G7 b9 or G7 alt. chord that show the F melodic minor with and without the B natural. The second example uses an A natural as a passing chromatic tone.

 

I often experiment and borrow non-scale or modal tones over a particular chord. You can mix and match from diminished, melodic & harmonic minor, augmented, chromatic passing tones, etc..

It's imperative to know the basic application of chord/scale/mode relationship but also even more important to have the ears to discern what sounds good in a real working world context, and not be strictly locked into an exact, rigid formula. In other words...do your own thing man. If you can make it sound cool, use it.

 

Couldn’t have said it any better.

[SMcD]

Good points all around. Rules were made to be broken. I recall seeing a McCoy Tyner transcription where he repeatedly works E-natural into lines over a Cmin(maj7).

[MathOfInsects]

I don’t know that I have the confidence to run a line that majors the 3 over a minor chord, at least in anything other than the passingest of passing tones. Props to those who make it work.

[allan_evett]

19 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

In other words...do your own thing man. If you can make it sound cool, use it.

 

That's been my approach for quite a while.  There are a healthy handful of advanced, jazz players here I'd quickly get off the bench for - especially you, Dave . But I've never been chased out of a solo, standards gig either.  In college I learned a lot of shortcuts from a student of the renowned pianist/arranger, Frank Mantooth. I also received valuable guidance from a mentor of many years, the now late Tom Howard. Tom was a highly skilled composer/arranger (and quite nimble keyboardist) whose permutations of Minor 11ths were intriguing, along with many other musical meanderings.

Both these guys' uses of polychords and various stackings of LH voicings/RH triads+ connected with my style of learning. Lots of patterns can be derived from those superimpositions; some of those efforts have been a pleasant surprise, others quickly folded and reshaped 😅.

 

 

19 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

 

[Chummy]

On 4/28/2023 at 5:08 AM, CEB said:

For what it's worth, I listen to this podcast with these two players from St. Louis.  I love the way Peter Martin plays.  These guys give me some good practice ideas when I am looking for something new to work on or feel like I'm in a rut.

 

Here is one of their discussions from a 2-3 years ago I really enjoyed.

 

Haha, The way the bald guy on the right describes the altered scale at around 6:15 minutes in is EXACTLY how I precieve it.

 

I also teach it in a similar manner: Basically a whole tone scale, but you take the 2nd note (D if you start with C) and slice it like a hydra - and once you kill it

the two heads spawn from each side (Db and D#) instead. my younger students especially find that analogy hilarious lol.. and it sticks!

[Legatoboy]

I'll never forget talking with Barry Harris at the Village Vanguard in  Greenwich Village after his show there only a few years back, we sat immediately behind him, almost on top of him in tight seating...and how in conversation Bud's Powell's tune 'Oblivion' came up and how he said the word to me..... 'Oblivion' in a way - like imagine 'your nothing, not here', it was profound the way he said it, he was up there even then (about 8 years back)....he played his last gig where I've been going to a monthly Jazz jam  since February @ 'Flushing Town Hall' in Queens NYC. which is down the block from my alma mater- Flushing HS   ..... 😥 it's a good jam, Louis Armstrong's daughter ( but not from one of his 4 marriages) was there last month as an honored guest ...Louie's home / museum just  a short throw away down Roosevelt Ave. to 108th street ....  

 

"He last appeared in public less than a month ago, at a concert celebrating NEA Jazz Masters at Flushing Town Hall in Queens. Harris played two pieces by Monk and sang the blues with his dear friend of 70 years, Sheila Jordan, a Detroit-born singer He also sang one of his most radiant compositions, "The Bird of Red and Gold,".. " 

 

Barry Harris

[Legatoboy]

On 5/9/2023 at 7:48 AM, Chummy said:

Haha, The way the bald guy on the right describes the altered scale at around 6:15 minutes in is EXACTLY how I precieve it.

 

I also teach it in a similar manner: Basically a whole tone scale, but you take the 2nd note (D if you start with C) and slice it like a hydra - and once you kill it

the two heads spawn from each side (Db and D#) instead. my younger students especially find that analogy hilarious lol.. and it sticks!

I had watched this also just 2 months ago on YT ... found it somehow!  Altered Scale Vid:

[MathOfInsects]

Barry Harris never paid me the $5 he lost to me at badminton. 

[GovernorSilver]

Another Open Studio vid from around the same time.  I've seen options 1-3 in their Jazz Scales for Beginners course.  The other options might appear later - I haven't progressed that far into the course yet.

 

 

[Al Quinn]

On 5/8/2023 at 10:48 AM, MathOfInsects said:

I don’t know that I have the confidence to run a line that majors the 3 over a minor chord, at least in anything other than the passingest of passing tones.

 

There's a technique that some call side slipping where you can play the major 3 over a minor chord and it still sounds good without being a passing tone. For those not familiar with this technique the idea is that to play inside we often play melodies based on 7-note scales. That leaves us with 5 "wrong notes" which become the outside notes. I think of it in terms of tension and release (i.e., analogous to a V chord resolving to a I chord), but instead the outside notes provide the tension and the inside notes provide the release.

 

In this video I start side slipping around 2:35 into the tune. We're in the key of C minor and I'm hearing a back and forth between tension and release. I think the outside notes I'm using are in the A major pentatonic scale (which includes E natural). There are some E natural notes over C minor that aren't passing notes but (to my ear) work. After some tension and release on the A section the challenge becomes finding a musical way to the bridge. 

 

A simply way to experiment is to improvise over a D Dorian vamp. The white keys are inside and the black keys are outside. Try to weave in and out in a musical way. Listen to the masters (e.g., McCoy Tyner, Chick Corea, Micheal Brecker, etc.) and try again. So What and Impression are good tunes to try this on. 

 

 

[Floyd Tatum]

On 5/8/2023 at 7:48 AM, MathOfInsects said:

I don’t know that I have the confidence to run a line that majors the 3 over a minor chord, at least in anything other than the passingest of passing tones. Props to those who make it work.

 

Don't forget about the #9 chord, which contains both the major 3rd (at the bottom) and the minor 3rd (at the top).    This combines major and minor third, so surely it's possible in some circumstances to play a maj 3rd over a minor chord.   I'm pretty sure I've done this myself now and then, although I can't think of a concrete (Victory) example.

[CEB]

Minor third over a major third  is  a big part of my basic harmony vocabulary in some of my piano blues.  The tension is cool. Sort of like is Hendrix plays piano.  My common voicing in C would E - Bb - Eb in the right over Octave Cs in the left.   If you don't use this then for starters just try the bounce that chord then go to 3rd inversion F major.  Think of the rhythm of the 'sock it to me' section of Aretha's RESPECT. ... (The B section)

 

But I just some retired crazy dude on the internet.