Yamaha YC Operating system update Ver. 1.3

[Outkaster]

7 hours ago, pjd said:

I hope they have some flash ROM left after adding the new pianos. 😀

 

Yamaha need to add the bread and butter orchestra instruments and pipe organs -- now in the CK -- before I pull out the credit card.

 

Enjoy the new update, tho'! -- pj

 

P.S. Forgot to say... Leaving those instruments out left the YC sadly lacking WRT Nord and its library.

This is one of the best boards I have ever had and the PROS way out weigh the CONS.

[dickiefunk]

I have the YC61 and CP88 and really enjoy these boards a lot. There are some welcome new additions in the V1.3 setup. It’s always great to have some new voices and the Hamburg Grand is my favourite from those used in the CP. There are feature requests from ideascale that I was hoping for but haven’t haven’t made it or are even possible to do with a software update.

 

-Firstly, the key trigger and release points for playing fast repetitive notes and trills isn’t correct for organ playing (though it works great for other sounds).

-Secondly, I was hoping for advanced mode allowing too make patches of three non organ sounds.

-Thirdly, I would love to be able to route the audio inputs from an external source directly to the headphone output and not the main outputs for IEM’s. This would negate the need for a separate headphone amp and reduce stage clutter.

 

However, I’m happy Yamaha are still updating the YC series and there are definitely some nice new features added in v1.3.

 

One thing I am a little concerned about though is the CP range. According to the usual pattern of Yamaha updates, it would have been the CP’ turn to get an update and I’m worried they are not bringing any more updates to this board!?

There is a lot to like about the CP but as it is Yamaha’s flagship stage “piano” I was hoping these would get a bit more attention with an update adding things like their VRM (virtual resonance modelling) which already exists in their cheaper P515, or true sympathetic string resonance along with adjustable hammer, key release, damper resonance and pedal noise. As the CP is marketed as being “piano” focused I don’t think having the Bosendorfer and U3 is any where near enough to distinguish it as this!
Also it seems a little strange why Yamaha only included half of the clavinet pickup samples? Ben from Yamaha has posted on their ideascale page that they have very recently sampled a D6 clavinet but there’s no confirmation as to which products will receive these samples in an update. 
I so hope Yamaha haven’t stopped updating the CP series!

[ElmerJFudd]

3 hours ago, dickiefunk said:

I have the YC61 and CP88 and really enjoy these boards a lot. There are some welcome new additions in the V1.3 setup. It’s always great to have some new voices and the Hamburg Grand is my favourite from those used in the CP. There are feature requests from ideascale that I was hoping for but haven’t haven’t made it or are even possible to do with a software update.

 

-Firstly, the key trigger and release points for playing fast repetitive notes and trills isn’t correct for organ playing (though it works great for other sounds).

-Secondly, I was hoping for advanced mode allowing too make patches of three non organ sounds.

-Thirdly, I would love to be able to route the audio inputs from an external source directly to the headphone output and not the main outputs for IEM’s. This would negate the need for a separate headphone amp and reduce stage clutter.

 

However, I’m happy Yamaha are still updating the YC series and there are definitely some nice new features added in v1.3.

 

One thing I am a little concerned about though is the CP range. According to the usual pattern of Yamaha updates, it would have been the CP’ turn to get an update and I’m worried they are not bringing any more updates to this board!?

There is a lot to like about the CP but as it is Yamaha’s flagship stage “piano” I was hoping these would get a bit more attention with an update adding things like their VRM (virtual resonance modelling) which already exists in their cheaper P515, or true sympathetic string resonance along with adjustable hammer, key release, damper resonance and pedal noise. As the CP is marketed as being “piano” focused I don’t think having the Bosendorfer and U3 is any where near enough to distinguish it as this!
Also it seems a little strange why Yamaha only included half of the clavinet pickup samples? Ben from Yamaha has posted on their ideascale page that they have very recently sampled a D6 clavinet but there’s no confirmation as to which products will receive these samples in an update. 
I so hope Yamaha haven’t stopped updating the CP series!

Agreed, at the very least the CP needs a harp. LOL

 

Assuming the DSP can run string resonance and it could be accessed from the the menu, adjusted with the data wheel like the velocity curve editor, it would be an attractive selling point and should have been included at launch.  But years of anecdotal evidence suggests that these are tactical business decisions.  They can’t build the last board you’ll ever need/want.   You need to upgrade to the CP88 mkII. 

 

[gasit]

Nice update… like the Hamburg Steinway… it sits nice 👍 in the hands … feels and sounds good to play… all the other updates and patches.  The panning is huge to use a vent or the like…or separate bass line out..the multi A/B is a good thing…I was up at 5 am EST yesterday . Still getting used to retirement .. updated in the afternoon yesterday - Legatoboy

[gasit]

I signed in with an old signin on my new phone.. I won’t do that anymore … this is Legatoboy

[Dave Number Four]

Will the upgrade wipe out my saved live sets? Obviously I can save them to a thumb drive and then reload, just trying to plan when I'll have time to try the OS upgrade (like not right before a gig!) Thx.

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, dickiefunk said:

There are feature requests from ideascale that I was hoping for but haven’t haven’t made it or are even possible to do with a software update.

 

-Firstly, the key trigger and release points for playing fast repetitive notes and trills isn’t correct for organ playing (though it works great for other sounds).

 

Yes, I talked about this in the post at https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/185461-yamaha-yc-operating-system-update-ver-13/#comment-2944655 in the section with the reply to Mitch Towne. Even if adjusting the trigger point is not feasible for whatever reason, an adjustment to the release point would still be welcome. (This comment only applies to the YC61... the release point on my YC73 is no different than it is for other sounds.)

 

 

3 hours ago, dickiefunk said:

-Secondly, I was hoping for advanced mode allowing too make patches of three non organ sounds.

 

I wonder if that might be too clumsy, from an interface perspective. On the CP, each of the three sections is essentially identical except for their available effects, so being able to put Sound X into section A vs. section B doesn't really have much of an effect on how the board "presents" itself in terms of user interface. Putting a non-organ sound into the organ section of the YC, though, seems more problematic. You'd be activating the "organ" section without activating the organ controls; to apply effects to the sounds, you'd have to select that you were applying them to the "organ" -- Might that be too much at odds with the intended "Nord-like" approach of the board, to have indicators and control legends be that much "out of sync" with what is actually happening?

 

3 hours ago, dickiefunk said:

-Thirdly, I would love to be able to route the audio inputs from an external source directly to the headphone output and not the main outputs for IEM’s. This would negate the need for a separate headphone amp and reduce stage clutter.

 

AFAIK, usually, the main and headphone outs are tapped off the same physical circuit, so the internals would actually have to be re-wired to permit sending something to one place vs. the other.

 

But to the initial point, yeah, there's a bunch of stuff on ideascale I would have liked to have seen, which probably would be do-able in a software update... I posted a bunch of those ideas myself. 😉 With some luck, maybe we haven't seen the last of YC updates.

 

3 hours ago, dickiefunk said:

There is a lot to like about the CP but as it is Yamaha’s flagship stage “piano” I was hoping these would get a bit more attention with an update adding things like their VRM (virtual resonance modelling) which already exists in their cheaper P515, or true sympathetic string resonance along with adjustable hammer, key release, damper resonance and pedal noise. As the CP is marketed as being “piano” focused I don’t think having the Bosendorfer and U3 is any where near enough to distinguish it as this!

 

Of course, then YC owners would clamor for these things to be added to their boards as well, and we're back where we started! But if nothing else, the piano-focused CP maintains the distinguishing virtue of being cheaper. 😉

 

3 hours ago, dickiefunk said:

Also it seems a little strange why Yamaha only included half of the clavinet pickup samples? Ben from Yamaha has posted on their ideascale page that they have very recently sampled a D6 clavinet but there’s no confirmation as to which products will receive these samples in an update. 

 

I think that "strangeness" may simply be the result of having never sampled all 4 pickup settings, when they initially sampled a clavinet years ago. I don't think any Yamaha has ever had the different pickup samples. I'm glad they're finally addressing that in some fashion, even if we don't yet know where they will appear.

[PianoMan51]

50 minutes ago, Dave Number Four said:

Will the upgrade wipe out my saved live sets? Obviously I can save them to a thumb drive and then reload, just trying to plan when I'll have time to try the OS upgrade (like not right before a gig!) Thx.

This is easy. Follow the readme instructions. You backup all your current live sets onto a usb dongle. Then you load the full update file into your YC. Then you reload your live sets back to the YC. Your keys now have all the new stuff but with your hard-won patches.

 

I recommend spending a few minutes to run through the new factory live sets before you overwrite them. You might find something of interest.

[Paul Woodward]

@PianoMan51 This is where I messed up. There were a few nice live sets in the update, but I needed to reinstall my saved set list for rehearsals tomorrow. so I reloaded my saved list but I didn't save the sets that came with the update so....is there any way of loading a few of the new live sets without updating the firmware (again) and saving out the full (new) set list?

[JFN]

27 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

@PianoMan51 This is where I messed up. There were a few nice live sets in the update, but I needed to reinstall my saved set list for rehearsals tomorrow. so I reloaded my saved list but I didn't save the sets that came with the update so....is there any way of loading a few of the new live sets without updating the firmware (again) and saving out the full (new) set list?

 

I use the John Melas librarian/editor and it makes it easy. I only kept around 10 or so live sets from the update. Once I figured out which ones I wanted, I put them in a separate library file. Then I reloaded my personal live sets, which fill all available slots so I had to find 10 to get rig of to make room, then I loaded the V1.3 sets that I liked and reorganized them so my pianos are all together, synths, organs are together, etc. It's a nice software tool to have and I used it with my CP73 and MODX+ as well. There is link to buy it on the YC page at Yamaha Synth.com I think.

 

[Paul Woodward]

13 minutes ago, JFN said:

 

I use the John Melas librarian/editor and it makes it easy. I only kept around 10 or so live sets from the update. Once I figured out which ones I wanted, I put them in a separate library file. Then I reloaded my personal live sets, which fill all available slots so I had to find 10 to get rig of to make room, then I loaded the V1.3 sets that I liked and reorganized them so my pianos are all together, synths, organs are together, etc. It's a nice software tool to have and I used it with my CP73 and MODX+ as well. There is link to buy it on the YC page at Yamaha Synth.com I think.

 

Ah, but I didn’t save the new live sets after the update so is there a way of getting these without reinstalling the update?

[PianoMan51]

I don’t think so. The updater file doesn’t run within the File menu, it’s a separate process that doesn’t ask you what you want to load, it just overlays everything.

[dickiefunk]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Yes, I talked about this in the post at https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/185461-yamaha-yc-operating-system-update-ver-13/#comment-2944655 in the section with the reply to Mitch Towne. Even if adjusting the trigger point is not feasible for whatever reason, an adjustment to the release point would still be welcome. (This comment only applies to the YC61... the release point on my YC73 is no different than it is for other sounds.)

 

 

 

I wonder if that might be too clumsy, from an interface perspective. On the CP, each of the three sections is essentially identical except for their available effects, so being able to put Sound X into section A vs. section B doesn't really have much of an effect on how the board "presents" itself in terms of user interface. Putting a non-organ sound into the organ section of the YC, though, seems more problematic. You'd be activating the "organ" section without activating the organ controls; to apply effects to the sounds, you'd have to select that you were applying them to the "organ" -- Might that be too much at odds with the intended "Nord-like" approach of the board, to have indicators and control legends be that much "out of sync" with what is actually happening?

 

 

AFAIK, usually, the main and headphone outs are tapped off the same physical circuit, so the internals would actually have to be re-wired to permit sending something to one place vs. the other.

 

But to the initial point, yeah, there's a bunch of stuff on ideascale I would have liked to have seen, which probably would be do-able in a software update... I posted a bunch of those ideas myself. 😉 With some luck, maybe we haven't seen the last of YC updates.

 

 

Of course, then YC owners would clamor for these things to be added to their boards as well, and we're back where we started! But if nothing else, the piano-focused CP maintains the distinguishing virtue of being cheaper. 😉

 

 

I think that "strangeness" may simply be the result of having never sampled all 4 pickup settings, when they initially sampled a clavinet years ago. I don't think any Yamaha has ever had the different pickup samples. I'm glad they're finally addressing that in some fashion, even if we don't yet know where they will appear.

These are all very good points! Though if Yamaha already had the VRM technology on their slightly older and cheaper P515 I don't quite understand why they don't also add it to the CP88 when it was released a few months later?

[ElmerJFudd]

6 hours ago, dickiefunk said:

These are all very good points! Though if Yamaha already had the VRM technology on their slightly older and cheaper P515 I don't quite understand why they don't also add it to the CP88 when it was released a few months later?

I have a suspicion the silicon in the CP, YC and P515 is very similar but not identical.  The 515 requires string resonance to be competitive with current similar digital pianos from competitors - Kawai ES8, ES920, Roland FP60X, FP90X for example.  It’s a selling point that can be pointed out and demonstrated by salesmen in the showroom and on YouTube.  
 

On the other hand, with the CP88 and YC - Yamaha is spending their budget on a completely different user interface with tactile control, polyphony afforded to independent engines with independent FX,  split/layer/live set capability in a speaker-less design intended for stage use.  
 

Is there enough juice left in the DSP for the YC and the CP to do string resonance as well?  If not, string resonance is an obvious choice for the chopping block since it’s a comparatively subtle effect in situations where you’re mixed in through PA. If the hardware can do string resonance - well they left it out as a tactical business decision to be included in the MkII so the CP/YC are not the last keyboard your want or need from them.   One thing is for certain… Yamaha knew before release that we were going to say, “where’s the string resonance?”.  

[The_Star_Guy]

I have already had an opportunity to briefly play a CK88 and the Pipe Organs really are very good!  When I checked my YC73 i was surprised to find that these sounds were not already included.   These really need to be included in the next firmware update if possible, as well as the new & improved Clavinet sounds that Yamaha has recently sampled as well.

[Sam Mullins]

25 minutes ago, The_Star_Guy said:

I have already had an opportunity to briefly play a CK88 ...

What was your impression of the keybed?

[The_Star_Guy]

1 hour ago, Sam Mullins said:

What was your impression of the keybed?

 

The keybed for the CK88 was GHS and pretty similar in feel to the DGX-670.   I consider GHS to be perfectly fine for use in this price and weight class.

[JohnH]

On 4/5/2023 at 7:20 AM, Dave Number Four said:

Will the upgrade wipe out my saved live sets? Obviously I can save them to a thumb drive and then reload, just trying to plan when I'll have time to try the OS upgrade (like not right before a gig!) Thx.

 

 

Yes it will. Always back up first before doing any update on a keyboard. It is in red on warnings: All the Live Set Sounds and the settings of MENU screens and SETTINGS screens will be initialized by this updater. Please make sure that you save all User data to a USB flash drive before performing this update.

 

https://usa.yamaha.com/support/updates/yc61_yc73_yc88_os.html

[AnotherScott]

also, realize that every update (so far) includes new Live Sets... if someone had filled all their locations, where would they go? So yeah, they will wipe out what's there.

 

They should better document this, though. Telling you to back everything up is one piece... now how do you restore what you had? That's the more complicated part.

[pjd]

18 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I have a suspicion the silicon in the CP, YC and P515 is very similar but not identical.  The 515 requires string resonance to be competitive with current similar digital pianos from competitors - Kawai ES8, ES920, Roland FP60X, FP90X for example.  It’s a selling point that can be pointed out and demonstrated by salesmen in the showroom and on YouTube.  
 

On the other hand, with the CP88 and YC - Yamaha is spending their budget on a completely different user interface with tactile control, polyphony afforded to independent engines with independent FX,  split/layer/live set capability in a speaker-less design intended for stage use.  
 

Is there enough juice left in the DSP for the YC and the CP to do string resonance as well?  If not, string resonance is an obvious choice for the chopping block since it’s a comparatively subtle effect in situations where you’re mixed in through PA. If the hardware can do string resonance - well they left it out as a tactical business decision to be included in the MkII so the CP/YC are not the last keyboard your want or need from them.   One thing is for certain… Yamaha knew before release that we were going to say, “where’s the string resonance?”.  

 

These are all good comments.

 

As to silicon specifically, when Yamaha designs a processor (SWX or SWP), it is general enough to be used in ALL product lines, i.e., there aren't variants for organ, stage piano, piano or synth. They also plan for at least a 10 year design life -- for those people expecting brand new silicon in every new product, forget it. 🙃

 

That said, Yamaha carefully select and configure the processor(s) to be used in a specific product in order to implement the feature set at a particular price point. They are really damned good at this. Functional variation between products is established at the host control level (e.g., ARM) and the specific firmware load into the SWX or SWP DSP units. 

 

I stopped chasing service manuals for the piano product lines. In the SWP50 era, mid- to high-end products typically required two SWP50 tone generation ICs to achieve target polyphony. VRM equipped instruments, however, required a third SWP50 specifically for effects, e.g., VRM. (Basically, the AWM pipe in the third SWP50 is superfluous.) That's a lot of effort and cost to add VRM -- which must be computationally demanding.

 

This is why VRM doesn't make it into mid- and low-end products. 

 

I have no life -- pj 😀

 

[ElmerJFudd]

45 minutes ago, pjd said:

 

These are all good comments.

 

As to silicon specifically, when Yamaha designs a processor (SWX or SWP), it is general enough to be used in ALL product lines, i.e., there aren't variants for organ, stage piano, piano or synth. They also plan for at least a 10 year design life -- for those people expecting brand new silicon in every new product, forget it. 🙃

 

That said, Yamaha carefully select and configure the processor(s) to be used in a specific product in order to implement the feature set at a particular price point. They are really damned good at this. Functional variation between products is established at the host control level (e.g., ARM) and the specific firmware load into the SWX or SWP DSP units. 

 

I stopped chasing service manuals for the piano product lines. In the SWP50 era, mid- to high-end products typically required two SWP50 tone generation ICs to achieve target polyphony. VRM equipped instruments, however, required a third SWP50 specifically for effects, e.g., VRM. (Basically, the AWM pipe in the third SWP50 is superfluous.) That's a lot of effort and cost to add VRM -- which must be computationally demanding.

 

This is why VRM doesn't make it into mid- and low-end products. 

 

I have no life -- pj 😀

 

So, it’s entirely possible (likely even)  that a conscious component/cost decision was made on the gigging CP and YC boards.  If something had to be nixed it was Virtual Resonance Model.  That wasn’t really an option on the P515 since competing instruments feature it. 
 

When practicing at home, I can use the CP88s internal pianos but I’m just as likely to opt for software pianos that include string resonance modeling.  I also have a stereo pair of monitors or headphones to experience the sonic joy.  
 

When gigging I’m just one of a bunch of instruments in mono scratching out a little frequency real estate at the mixing engineer’s discretion. I’m guessing, price/performance, this is where Yamaha’s thinking falls. 

[PianoMan51]

It’s a stage keyboard. 
 

Just my humble opinion, but as soon as a drummer kicks in at almost any volume level, all the beautiful stereo field, resonance and reverb on a digital piano becomes background noise that impedes the audience’s ability to hear what you’re playing. I turn them all off. 

[ElmerJFudd]

20 minutes ago, PianoMan51 said:

It’s a stage keyboard. 
 

Just my humble opinion, but as soon as a drummer kicks in at almost any volume level, all the beautiful stereo field, resonance and reverb on a digital piano becomes background noise that impedes the audience’s ability to hear what you’re playing. I turn them all off. 

Agreed, there’s plenty of reasons to avoid additional ambience in a group mix.  

I think perhaps all parties underestimated how many CPs they’d sell to people that intend to use it mainly at home. It is a clean design, elegant.  Black, red felt.  Traditional.  It looks great on the gig or at home. 

[Al Quinn]

I used the YC73 as a single board rig recently on a gig and was very pleased. Here’s a short video of some organ and piano. I like the way both feel and sound. The lack of high trigger for organ, which I was so disappointed about, didn’t bother me — I’m not sure why. Yeah, there’s some organ techniques that can’t be done because of the action but something’s gotta give and I’m OK with the compromise. What’s most important to me is that I express myself well and to that end it was a success.
 

I didn’t think I was ever going to see that day that I’d be happy with a single board rig. Pinch me!

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

10 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

I used the YC73 as a single board rig recently on a gig and was very pleased. Here’s a short video of some organ and piano. I like the way both feel and sound. Yeah, there’s some organ techniques that can’t be done because of the action but something’s gotta give and I’m OK with the compromise. What’s most important to me is that I express myself well and to that end it was a success.
 

I didn’t think I was ever going to see that day that I’d be happy with a single board rig. Pinch me!

 

 

Sounds great, Al.  Is this indoors or outside? 

[AnotherScott]

Picking up from Al's comment... As you may recall, I rarely gig with a single keyboard, but it can even happen not by choice. I had a gig last year where the YC73 was my bottom, and I ended up having to do the whole gig on that board... my top board was unusable because (wait for it...) I somehow managed to leave the house without its wall wart. During each break, I was easily able to come up with all the sounds and splits I'd need for the songs for the upcoming set, with very little in the way of compromise. The YC73 is, unfortunately, not very adept at grabbing sounds that way on the fly (a shortcoming that seems surprising looking at its inviting control surface), but with just the time of the breaks, I could assemble the sound and sound-pairs I needed quite efficiently, all grouped on appropriate Live Set pages, and got through the gig relatively stress free.

 

In a perfect world, if playing on a single board, I'd prefer one where I could even grab my top and bottom sounds on the fly, mid-performance, and some boards can do that But the YC was good enough to get me through here, and better than numerous other boards would have been.

[Al Quinn]

10 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Sounds great, Al.  Is this indoors or outside? 

Thanks Elmer! We were playing outside on the sidewalk in front of a bar called Blue Jean Blues in Fort Lauderdale. On Friday nights they close off the street and setup tables, couches, and awnings outside. Great weather, great people, a lot of fun!

[ElmerJFudd]

39 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

Thanks Elmer! We were playing outside on the sidewalk in front of a bar called Blue Jean Blues in Fort Lauderdale. On Friday nights they close off the street and setup tables, couches, and awnings outside. Great weather, great people, a lot of fun!

These folks didn’t realize they were in for such a treat.  You have that that YC singing.  
 

Outside always sounds best to me.  Only a seasonal option up here, as the snowbirds know all too well.

[Al Quinn]

Yeah, I like playing outside but it requires more from my powered speakers (i.e., I wasn’t going through the PA). A pair of TT08As on short folding stools (as suggested by @Reezekeys) behind me were up to the task!

[ElmerJFudd]

7 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

Yeah, I like playing outside but it requires more from my powered speakers (i.e., I wasn’t going through the PA). A pair of TT08As on short folding stools (as suggested by @Reezekeys) behind me were up to the task!

That’s my plan for solo/duo/trio stuff.  I already have the short pole with two speaker mounts I can angle.  The next step is deciding on a matched pair of 8” monitors.