iPad as a serious musical instrument

[D. Gauss]

could be wrong, but i'm pretty sure none of those interfaces power an ipad as they aren't device specific.  it should have a PD (power delivery) icon if it did.  that's not to say power won't go to the ipad through a usb port, just probably not a enough to charge it while it's actually drawing current. 

[analogman1]

If the iPad is fully charged, just how much battery power would you need for a gig? 

In my case, I usually use the iPad for quick jams or get together; not as a full-fledged gigging source.

Would the battery typically last 2 hours or so? Could the iPad get a quick boost between sets? 

I'm just wondering how much of an issue the charging issue is.

I've had quite a few times when my laptop inadvertently ran on just battery power and I was able to do a 3-hour night of music (including breaks etc.)

 

 

[Paul Woodward]

Run down tests on iPads usually involve Wi-Fi on, full brightness/volume and running video constantly to check their rated 10 hour rating. Can’t imagine you would struggle to get 2-3 hours at a gig from full charge…even if Korg Module does tend to drain the battery faster 😉

As for charging, if you had the iPad 9 or earlier, you would have headphone socket and could use the camera connection kit with the additional charging port. Another good reason to snap up the 9th gen while they are available. Appreciate you may already have a newer model already though. I have iPad Pro, but grabbed the 9th gen just for its ease of connection etc. Also, it’s the cheapest iPad so, if damaged or lost/stolen, it’s less painful than losing an iPad Pro…

[ElmerJFudd]

33 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

Run down tests on iPads usually involve Wi-Fi on, full brightness/volume and running video constantly to check their rated 10 hour rating. Can’t imagine you would struggle to get 2-3 hours at a gig from full charge…even if Korg Module does tend to drain the battery faster 😉

As for charging, if you had the iPad 9 or earlier, you would have headphone socket and could use the camera connection kit with the additional charging port. Another good reason to snap up the 9th gen while they are available. Appreciate you may already have a newer model already though. I have iPad Pro, but grabbed the 9th gen just for its ease of connection etc. Also, it’s the cheapest iPad so, if damaged or lost/stolen, it’s less painful than losing an iPad Pro…

I’d put it in airplane mode for a gig, especially if running pianoteq at low buffer, high poly.  I need to get 3-5 hours of continuous use.  It sucks scrambling to charge it on the car drive because I forgot to plug it in the  night before. And we know the battery deteriorates over years of ownership.  Battery replacement is a pain in the arse.  Hence a device that can charge it while in use is a must or back to laptop. 
 

A hub might be the way to go if no audio io boxes provide a way to charge. 
 

[HammondDave]

This is what I use. It fully powers my iPad pro. It stays at 100% through a four hour gig. Has never failed me. 
 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0915B3NPY?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title
 

 

[Reezekeys]

From what I've seen there are a few factors that affect how quickly your battery drains. Of course if you're powering a USB controller from the iPad you may not be able to use it on battery at all. Once you hook up power it might still drain (depending on what else is connected), but at a very slow rate so should not be an issue at most gigs. I've seen a non-MFI certified cable also affect drain! I did a gig with my 11-watt iPad cube easily powering both my Roland controller and iPhone SE 2016. Another time I had the same set up but had to use a non-MFI cable and saw that the battery was draining slowly. I hooked up a 40 watt power cube and it was still draining! Not only that, but on that particular gig my keyboard power-cycled twice - the second time between a note-on and note-off, so you know what happened! Lesson learned. In my view this is an unfortunate disadvantage of having to use the Apple-proprietary lightning ports. USB-C being an industry standard should theoretically not be subject to these limitations (though I've heard Apple might have deliberately crippled USB-C transfer speeds in some devices). Apple doesn't make lightning cable extensions (which I do need sometimes depending on the stage I'm on) so I have to cross my fingers with the Chinese brand-du-jour stuff. I wonder if the "MFI certified" they sometimes claim are for real. I test at home extensively now!

[ElmerJFudd]

48 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

This is what I use. It fully powers my iPad pro. It stays at 100% through a four hour gig. Has never failed me. 
 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0915B3NPY?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title
 

 

That’s the route that seems most viable. I’m really surprised few (possibly no) MI developers have figured out an audio interface with iOS host charging and a few USB ports for controllers should be a thing.  
 

It could be related to Apple charging a fee to be a certified Apple peripheral?  

[AnotherScott]

Remember also that battery life will shorten over time.

[stoken6]

8 hours ago, D. Gauss said:you have no way to charge/power the ipad whilst doing it unless you get all dongled up in dangling adapters. (which defeats the elegant simplicity of the whole thing).  the degree to which i detest apple and their one-single-port only nonsense can't be overstated

Agree. Two ports on an iPad would solve these problems and many others. 
 

Cheers, Mike

[JohnnyFoster]

On 3/30/2023 at 6:13 AM, Reezekeys said:

 

I'm only gigging with a controller and iPad! Just like I gigged only with a controller and laptop for the last 16 years. It can be done.

What controller are you using? I've tried using my Yamaha MOXF6 as an iPad controller with an Apple Camera Connector, but the iPad won't see it. My MacBook Air M1 sees the Yamaha fine. Not sure what's going wrong when trying to use the iPad.

 

[Nievski]

On 5/9/2023 at 5:00 AM, AnotherScott said:

Remember also that battery life will shorten over time.

 

It's the one thing you can still have replaced (for a fee). I use an ancient iPhone 7 Plus; nearly 6 years old. Apple replaced the battery for US$89 and run-time is like new.

[Nievski]

5 hours ago, JohnnyFoster said:

What controller are you using? I've tried using my Yamaha MOXF6 as an iPad controller with an Apple Camera Connector, but the iPad won't see it. My MacBook Air M1 sees the Yamaha fine. Not sure what's going wrong when trying to use the iPad.

 

 

My Yamaha P-125 works great with a lightning iPhone + Apple Adapter; just did a Mother's Day brunch gig with Pianoteq.

 

Setup:

- Apple iPhone 11 -> Apple USB3 Adapter -> Yamaha P-125 -> 1/4" TS Cables -> Yamaha MG06x mixer -> Alto TS315.

- Apple USB3 adapter does charge the iPhone

- My old decrepit iPad Air, served as the Forscore Pad.

- I did accidentally, bump the P-125 and I had to physically re-connect the iPhone to the USB3 adapter. So perhaps some velcro to keep the connection solid is needed.

 

[Paul Woodward]

7 hours ago, JohnnyFoster said:

What controller are you using? I've tried using my Yamaha MOXF6 as an iPad controller with an Apple Camera Connector, but the iPad won't see it. My MacBook Air M1 sees the Yamaha fine. Not sure what's going wrong when trying to use the iPad.

 

1. Is it an official Apple connector?

2. Some groups suggested this can only be done via midi (with an adaptor) for the MOXF6...no idea.

3. If its anything like the YC, you have to set MIDI and USB ports as you need them. For example, if you set MIDI out to USB, MIDI in to the YC does not control the internal sounds, just passes the MIDI to the USB. Switch to MIDI and the MIDI in data controls the YC but is not passed to the USB. A bit annoying really. 

[Reezekeys]

7 hours ago, JohnnyFoster said:

What controller are you using? I've tried using my Yamaha MOXF6 as an iPad controller with an Apple Camera Connector, but the iPad won't see it. My MacBook Air M1 sees the Yamaha fine. Not sure what's going wrong when trying to use the iPad.

 

Roland A800. Any class-compliant midi keyboard should be usable by the iPad. I use a free iPhone & ipad app called Midiscope when I have any issues with midi on my i-devices:

 

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/midi-scope/id1185667452

 

Select the "source" tab (bottom left) and plug in the Yamaha - it should appear in the list. If it does and you still aren't getting sounds, you may have to go into the settings for the instrument or host app to make sure routing & channels are correct. If you plug it in and the Yam does not appear, and you know the CCK is good, I'm out of ideas, sorry!

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Roland A800. Any class-compliant midi keyboard should be usable by the iPad. I use a free iPhone & ipad app called Midiscope when I have any issues with midi on my i-devices:

 

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/midi-scope/id1185667452

 

Select the "source" tab (bottom left) and plug in the Yamaha - it should appear in the list. If it does and you still aren't getting sounds, you may have to go into the settings for the instrument or host app to make sure routing & channels are correct. If you plug it in and the Yam does not appear, and you know the CCK is good, I'm out of ideas, sorry!

Do we know with what generation of keyboards that Yamaha stopped requiring a Yamaha USB MIDI driver?  They’ve had various proprietary audio and midi drivers over the years. I believe I installed one for the audio/midi connection on macOS for the CP88.  

[Reezekeys]

On the MOXF6 you have to go into the Utility section and set the keyboard to use either USB or 5-pin midi:

__________________________________________________________________________

MIDI IN/OUT

Determines which physical output/input terminal(s) will be used for transmitting/receiving MIDI data.
Settings: MIDI, USB
NOTE The two types of terminals above cannot be used at the same time. Only one of them can be used to transmit/receive MIDI data.

__________________________________________________________________________

(My emphasis)

 

JohnnyFoster says his computer sees the MOXF6 so assuming he's connecting via USB, the iPad should work as well. If he's connecting to the computer via 5-pin midi then this setting would be the reason the iPad connection doesn't work. A quick search and scan of the manual found no mention of class compliant midi but no instruction to download or install a driver (that I saw).

[JohnnyFoster]

2 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

On the MOXF6 you have to go into the Utility section and set the keyboard to use either USB or 5-pin midi:

__________________________________________________________________________

MIDI IN/OUT

Determines which physical output/input terminal(s) will be used for transmitting/receiving MIDI data.
Settings: MIDI, USB
NOTE The two types of terminals above cannot be used at the same time. Only one of them can be used to transmit/receive MIDI data.

__________________________________________________________________________

(My emphasis)

 

JohnnyFoster says his computer sees the MOXF6 so assuming he's connecting via USB, the iPad should work as well. If he's connecting to the computer via 5-pin midi then this setting would be the reason the iPad connection doesn't work. A quick search and scan of the manual found no mention of class compliant midi but no instruction to download or install a driver (that I saw).

Yes - I'm using USB only (not MIDI 5-pin) out of the Yamaha MOXF6 to the iPad. Attempts to connect to my MacBook Air work fine - the iPad does not.

[Paul Woodward]

51 minutes ago, JohnnyFoster said:

Yes - I'm using USB only (not MIDI 5-pin) out of the Yamaha MOXF6 to the iPad. Attempts to connect to my MacBook Air work fine - the iPad does not.

But have you set the port to USB? If it’s set to MIDI it transmits from the 5 pin MIDI

 

[JohnnyFoster]

27 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

But have you set the port to USB? If it’s set to MIDI it transmits from the 5 pin MIDI

 

Of course. One of the first things I checked. No dice. Works with the MacBook Air M1 just fine.

[AnotherScott]

 

On 5/16/2023 at 1:20 AM, JohnnyFoster said:

I've tried using my Yamaha MOXF6 as an iPad controller with an Apple Camera Connector, but the iPad won't see it. My MacBook Air M1 sees the Yamaha fine. Not sure what's going wrong when trying to use the iPad.

 

The iPad itself doesn't "see" MIDI connections, individual apps do. (IOW, there's no equivalent to your Macbook Air's "Audio MIDI Setup" app, that I'm aware of.) So when you say your iPad won't see it, how are you determining that? Which app(s) have you tried? Maybe your issue is a setting in whatever app(s) you're trying to use.

 

On 5/16/2023 at 6:29 AM, Nievski said:

On 5/8/2023 at 5:00 PM, AnotherScott said:

Remember also that battery life will shorten over time.

It's the one thing you can still have replaced (for a fee). I use an ancient iPhone 7 Plus; nearly 6 years old. Apple replaced the battery for US$89 and run-time is like new.

 

Yes, but it will still get shorter on its way to getting to that point (that's typically how you know to replace it), so the point remains, whatever battery life you start with, it will gradually diminish, until you get to the point of replacing. There's also the issue that, once a model is discontinued, Apple will only do battery replacement for 7 years (which is long in Apple years, but not so long in gigging-keyboard years). After that, you'd have to do 3rd-party battery replacement, which may not power the device as long as Apple's batteries did or last as long without another replacement. But yeah, you'll probably end up getting a new device by then, and probably no longer be able to run some of your old apps. There is a certain ephemerality to the whole iOS environment, which is the main thing that irritates me about it. It's good for Apple, not so good for us.

 

20 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Do we know with what generation of keyboards that Yamaha stopped requiring a Yamaha USB MIDI driver?  They’ve had various proprietary audio and midi drivers over the years. I believe I installed one for the audio/midi connection on macOS for the CP88.  

 

According to Kenton, "Yamaha products first placed on the market in 2012 or later are class compliant" for MIDI. That doesn't mean they might not need drivers for certain advanced features and/or for audio, but they should at least work on an iOS device for MIDI.

 

 

[D. Gauss]

47 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

There is a certain ephemerality to the whole iOS environment, which is the main thing that irritates me about it. It's good for Apple, not so good for us.

 

 

 

I hate Apple and their disposable, planned obsolescence, sooo much. Unfortunately, using some of their products and bending over to their technological tyranny is a necessary evil.   

 

   Another thing i hate (which isn't just Apple) is the fact that you can't use most of these mobile devices (phones, tablets) without a working battery physically residing in the device. i.e. They won't even boot up despite being plugged into a power source.  WTF?   I use an old phone for a camera between the studio live room and the control room, but the non-removable battery is starting to swell so it won't be long before its dead.   For the exact opposite experience: My print server is an ancient five ton laptop running the outdated and no longer supported Windoze XP. The internal battery swelled up and died years ago.  No problem. i popped out the bulging, dead battery before it exploded and i keep the laptop plugged into the wall.  still working just many many years later.

 

old man, pre-coffee rant over.   

[bfields]

Googling....  Looks like Apple supports their mobile devices for 7 years since first release, and their nearest competition 4-5 years?  So I have a hard time pinning this on Apple.  It's an industry-wide thing.

 

Hopefully things will settle down as the market for consumer mobile devices matures.  I know it's been gradually shifting in the Android world--none of them were promising 5 years last time I bought a phone.  Still a long way to go to match what you expect from a typical keyboard, though.

[Ibarch]

It's not just hardware. There is far more risk to losing apps you've paid for in iOS/iPadOS world. If an android app developer goes under, you always have the APK file and can install it on to yours/another device whenever needed. 

 

In iOS/iPadOS , an active apple developer account is required in order for customers to be able to install apps (even when purchased previously). The only option is the Apple store. Every time Apple changes their developer terms and conditions - which tend to be at least once per year - an active developer account is needed to accept the new terms. Otherwise all apps from that account are removed from the store and cannot be installed again by anyone.

 

 

Ultimately, the one certainty about supported mobile  software and hardware is that there is no certainty. 

[Sam Mullins]

16 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

It's not just hardware. There is far more risk to losing apps you've paid for in iOS/iPadOS world. If an android app developer goes under, you always have the APK file and can install it on to yours/another device whenever needed. 

 

In iOS/iPadOS , an active apple developer account is required in order for customers to be able to install apps (even when purchased previously). The only option is the Apple store. Every time Apple changes their developer terms and conditions - which tend to be at least once per year - an active developer account is needed to accept the new terms. Otherwise all apps from that account are removed from the store and cannot be installed again by anyone.

 

 

Ultimately, the one certainty about supported mobile  software and hardware is that there is no certainty. 

The reliability thing is complicated. 

 

Next week, I will be playing my first gig with a new rig that incorporates an iPad (CK88/Arturia KeyLab/iPad).  For several years I have been using a Kronos/Stage 3 combo with the vast majority of the non-keyboard sounds from the Kronos.  It has been rock solid.  In the new rig, many of those sounds will be covered by iPad apps.  Your points about apps going away  is valid and something I've tried to account for (use apps that I think are likely to have longer lifetime, e.g. Module)  

 

On the other hand, if my Kronos had ever failed, I would have been SOL for those songs which required it.  At least in the new rig, I can have a complete backup of my stuff  on the iPad (Camelot Pro and a few apps) and use another iPad I have.  So in that way, it is more reliable.  (I also intend to keep backup iPad on "old" ios and app versions until I verify everything works on primary iPad).

[Reezekeys]

My 10-year-old MacBook Pro is doing fine running Big Sur (11.7), and my 7-year-old iPhone SE 2016 is my current gig rig. Yes all electronics will break or be obsolete at some point, especially those that use software. You pays your money and takes your chances, which is a saying that applies to a lot more than computer or phone/tablet music rigs. All in all, looking at the expenses vs the useful work I've done with these tools I think I've made out pretty good. It does help that I'm an electronics hobbyist who doesn't mind taking chances disassembling these products - I've replaced batteries & screens in my phones, the battery and keyboard on my current MacBook Pro, and screens and logic boards on previous laptops. Ebay and iFixit.com are your friends there.

[Reezekeys]

4 minutes ago, Sam Mullins said:

On the other hand, if my Kronos had ever failed, I would have been SOL for those songs which required it.  At least in the new rig, I can have a complete backup of my stuff  on the iPad (Camelot Pro and a few apps) and use another iPad I have.

 

Exactly. I happened on my child's old iPhone 6S they left with us when they went to college with their new iPhone 12. Instant backup rig! I also have an older iPad Air 2, and my current iPhone loaded with enough apps to get me through a gig if anything happens to my two main iOS music-making devices (iPhone SE2016 and iPad 9G). I have more backup options than I know what to do with!

[AnotherScott]

54 minutes ago, bfields said:

Googling....  Looks like Apple supports their mobile devices for 7 years since first release, and their nearest competition 4-5 years? 

 

The actual Apple time frame is this: 

 

Owners of iPhone, iPad, iPod, Mac, or Apple TV products may obtain service and parts from Apple service providers, including Apple Store locations and Independent Repair Providers, for a minimum of 5 years from when Apple last distributed the product for sale.

Service and parts may be obtained for longer, as required by law or for up to 7 years, subject to parts availability. 

 

So, not 7 years from first release, but rather 5 to 7 years from date it is discontinued.

 

54 minutes ago, bfields said:

So I have a hard time pinning this on Apple.  It's an industry-wide thing.

 

My ephemerality issue is specific to iOS, not Apple as a whole. You can keep Macs/PCs running indefinitely, you can buy used ones on to which you can install whatever particular OS version and apps you happen to rely on, and you can replace your own battery and/or run them off AC if you can't. iOS generally precludes these possibilities.

[Ibarch]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 

The actual Apple time frame is this: 

 

Owners of iPhone, iPad, iPod, Mac, or Apple TV products may obtain service and parts from Apple service providers, including Apple Store locations and Independent Repair Providers, for a minimum of 5 years from when Apple last distributed the product for sale.

Service and parts may be obtained for longer, as required by law or for up to 7 years, subject to parts availability. 

 

So, not 7 years from first release, but rather 5 to 7 years from date it is discontinued.

 

 

My ephemerality issue is specific to iOS, not Apple as a whole. You can keep Macs/PCs running indefinitely, you can buy used ones on to which you can install whatever particular OS version and apps you happen to rely on, and you can replace your own battery and/or run them off AC if you can't. iOS generally precludes these possibilities.

 

I agree. Keeping an iPad or iPhone is a different challenge to Mac and PC. It's great if you've bought all your apps and can freeze the device for the next x years. What happens when you want to install just one more app? Users will find they can't buy the latest apps unless their device is running a supported version of the OS. Once your device is (in Apple's opinion) end of life, it is game over. The chances of moving all your current apps to a new current device are greatly diminished. 

 

Right now, this isn't showing up as a problem because most iPad apps are still relatively new. Give it a few years and it will become more and more of an issue. 

 

It is something people need to be aware of when choosing their platform. Especially as the iPad market may be about to boom with the release of Logic. 

[bfields]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

The actual Apple time frame is this:

Thanks for the correction!  I think Apple's still making longer commitments than any of the Android vendors.  (E.g. google promises patches for new Pixels for 5 years since initial release.)

 

Agreed that it's an iOS thing, not an Apple thing--but more than that, it's a phone/tablet thing, since none of Apple's competitors seem to be doing any better.

 

I figure there are a lot of people who have use cases (like keyboard players) where longevity matters, but they're dwarfed by the number of users who are mainly interested in taking pictures and sharing them.  And for that use, frequent upgrades have been much more appealing, as there have been enormous improvements over the years in cameras, storage, and bandwidth; and as cloud storage has made it easy to bring along your photo library with you across upgrades.  So there's probably been more return to a device vendor from investing in those features than there is in investing in long support periods.  But those features are maturing, and we're seeing vendors commit to longer support periods.  Hopefully that will continue.  Whether and when we might get to the point where they're usable for as long as laptops and desktops, I don't know.

[BenWaB3]

5 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

I hate Apple and their disposable, planned obsolescence, sooo much. Unfortunately, using some of their products and bending over to their technological tyranny is a necessary evil.   

What he said!!!!