DP actions: is it just me, or...

[TommyRude]

Chatbot weighing in on this topic:

 

As an AI language model, I do not have personal experiences like humans, but I can provide information based on the data I have been trained on.

 

Playing a digital piano can be different from playing an acoustic piano, but the playing experience can vary depending on the quality and type of digital piano. Some digital pianos have more realistic and responsive keyboard actions, while others may feel less authentic. However, many digital pianos have features that make up for the difference in feel, such as adjustable touch sensitivity, customizable sound options, and built-in sound systems.

 

It's not uncommon for people to experience some difficulty adapting to the feel of a digital piano, especially if they have extensive experience playing an acoustic piano. However, with practice, many people find that they are able to get comfortable playing digital pianos, and can even appreciate the benefits they offer.

 

As for specific brands, some well-regarded digital pianos include Yamaha, Roland, and Kawai, which are known for their authentic feel and sound quality. Ultimately, the best digital piano for you will depend on your personal preferences, skill level, and intended use, so it may be helpful to try out a few different models to find one that feels right for you.

[ElmerJFudd]

chatGPT, writing students’ papers for them since 2022.  

[Tom Williams]

For several months I have been considering selling my Privia PX-5S because after gigs my hands were freezing up -- not cold, just cramped muscles and tendons.  (Ever drive home from a gig with no functional thumbs?)

 

I concluded that my musculature was just too wimpy for the action, a heartbreaker because I prefer the sound of the Casio's piano to any of my Kurzweils.   It's kind of reassuring that it really may be the action's fault.

[DeltaJockey]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

How well the action "connects" with the sounds, such that it really feels like you're "playing the instrument" more so than "triggering recordings of sounds".

I never rate a keybed experience on silent feel alone. That's just stage one for me. How the expression plays out for the instruments I want to play is stage two.

How i feel about the keybed after using it for a few weeks is stage three, and how it beds-in with it's ultimate "used for some time" feel is stage four. Then I'll consider my definitive opinion as worth noting to self, in comparison to other keyboards I've had experience with. I know all this may be a bit impractical in the short term, but it ultimately is the only way I can trust my judgement, as a rushed appraisal is also at risk of my own fickle feelings on a given day!

[Dockeys]

I often wondered if giving enough regular time to a DP action is one of the reasons I’ve only gelled with one or two actions over the years. Like CEB in his PC4 thread I always loved the actions in the Yamaha Motif8/ES/S90ES actions. When I look back on it now I was playing way more than I am these days. I even remember having some periods on the MOX8/MOXF8/MODX8 where the sound and action really worked for me on some gigs. But if I didn’t play them in a couple of weeks I felt detached from them again. 
 

I spent a lot of time with the Numa X but didn’t work out for me. I currently have the CP73 and it’s workable for me but I’m finding it less than inspiring in terms of a giggling board. Then again I’m not gigging much because of work. Maybe you have to keep playing and plough through until you develop an understanding with the action…..or maybe there are some that you’ll always bond with?

[Dave Keys]

My favourite DP action is the one on my RD700nx. However, at 25Kg then 14kg for the case, I use it rarely for live band work now, so compromised with a Nord Electro 5HP 73. At 11.3kg plus 7.3kg for the case, it was a great solution weight and sound wise, but man I hate the action on it. I was playing a Beethoven Sonata on the Grand Piano the other day for about 1 1/2hrs. No aches or pains. Tried the same on the Nord - within about 15 mins my hands were aching. 
So, in the absence of Roland making a 73 note RD, I think the only solution is to replace the Nord with the Yamaha CP73 or YC73 - hoping they have a nicer action. 

[AnotherScott]

7 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

I never rate a keybed experience on silent feel alone. That's just stage one for me.

Right. But the funny thing is, my "stage one" experience can actually be negative, yet becomes surprisingly positive once it's triggering the sound. The Roland FP4 was in that category for me. Though I actually liked its FP2 predecessor a bit better. And unfortunately, its replacement FP-4F, was much worse. Speaking of Roland actions getting less impressive from one generation to the next...

 

2 hours ago, Dave Keys said:

My favourite DP action is the one on my RD700nx. 

I never played that, but I believe it's the same as on the FP-7F, which is an action I liked a lot... and I like it better than any hammer action Roland has come out with since.

 

Similarly with semi-weighted actions... RS9 and Jupiter 50 were lightweight boards, but both had actions that I really liked. Today, their lightweight boards like VR-09 and Fantom-07 have actions that are not as good as the lightweight actions they used to offer.

[drawback]

38 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Right. But the funny thing is, my "stage one" experience can actually be negative, yet becomes surprisingly positive once it's triggering the sound. The Roland FP4 was in that category for me.

I had a similar experience with the RD88. 

[ITGITC]

 

I've owned many pianos and keyboards.  They all have their compromises.  It's just a fact of life.

 

As a piano player, I have an easier time adjusting to any hammer-action keybed than one that's weighted, semi-weighted or non-weighted.  It affects my timing and muscle memory.  As far as I'm concerned, my life is too short to play piano parts on a non-hammer action board.

 

I've come to the conclusion that optimally I would have three boards:  an 88-key with hammer action, one with a waterfall keybed and real drawbars for playing Hammond organ parts, and one with an action best suited for synth parts that includes mod/pitch wheels, aftertouch, and lots of knobs! 

 

Currently, I'm using a lighter, smaller hammer-action board.  After the days of hauling everything and the kitchen sink to my gigs, this is the best I've found to keep on going. 

 

Old keyboard players don't stop playing because they lose interest... they quit because of all the sh&t they have to carry around.

 

I'm still playing. 

 

 

 

 

[DeltaJockey]

6 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Right. But the funny thing is, my "stage one" experience can actually be negative, yet becomes surprisingly positive once it's triggering the sound.

Yes, that is actually what I'm also meaning too. It can be misleading to just "feel" the keys alone. I'm quietly amused at people who say they waltz around a music store chopping at keys of instruments which are turned off until they find one they like. I'm sure most people wouldn't do that though

[SMcD]

16 hours ago, Jazz+ said:

Short-pivot DP actions are extremely exhausting. Long pivot DP actions are not nearly so tiring, such as those with the Kawai Grand Feel 3 (highly recommended).

 

Aside from Kawai's DP's, are there other boards that have this?

[CyberGene]

The pivot length has almost nothing to do with how tiring an action is. What matters is hammer weight, i.e. inertia. Kawai actions traditionally use lighter weights in actions that are less tiring to play although that’s a generalization that has exceptions. However light actions has their disadvantages too: they have narrower range of forces you can apply to accelerate the key within the short travel path of the key. This means that when you map that narrow range to the wide dynamic range of samples obtained from a huge concert grand you will have exaggerated response and inability to control the dynamics precisely and in a linear fashion. That is in contrast to the Yamaha approach (again, a generalization with exceptions) where they tend to use weightier hammers and actions that have more linear touch response for acoustic piano patches but can be tiring for people with wrist conditions. 

[Paul Woodward]

On 2/10/2023 at 9:41 PM, drawback said:

I've tried almost all the DPs mentioned over the years and have found Korg's Japanese RH3 action to suit me the best – better than my Kawai grand, as much as we've worked on it, and better than the Yamaha grand I play at work. The former's never broken in; the latter's been played the crap out of.

I had Yamaha DP’s since the CP100 and Korgs for synths. Back then I found Korg pianos to be terrible. For the last three years I played Yamaha grands at work regularly and loved them but I now have the Korg Grandstage and love the feel, sound and more importantly, the connection between the two. Ironically I now have a Yamaha YC61 and can’t bear to play piano sounds on it, but love it for Hammond and electric pianos.

[stoken6]

On 2/11/2023 at 9:00 AM, Dave Keys said:

My favourite DP action is the one on my RD700nx. However, at 25Kg then 14kg for the case, I use it rarely for live band work now, so compromised with a Nord Electro 5HP 73. At 11.3kg plus 7.3kg for the case, it was a great solution weight and sound wise, but man I hate the action on it. I was playing a Beethoven Sonata on the Grand Piano the other day for about 1 1/2hrs. No aches or pains. Tried the same on the Nord - within about 15 mins my hands were aching. 
So, in the absence of Roland making a 73 note RD, I think the only solution is to replace the Nord with the Yamaha CP73 or YC73 - hoping they have a nicer action. 

I can confirm Yamaha's action in those boards is streets ahead of the Nord HP. Also check out Korg's RH3 action. I think the SV2 and GrandStage are about 18kg for the 73s (I didn't particularly get on with that action, but you might). Finally, the TP110 in Studiologic's Numa X 73 has had some good reports - I haven't tried it.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

35 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

I had Yamaha DP’s since the CP100 and Korgs for synths. Back then I found Korg pianos to be terrible. For the last three years I played Yamaha grands at work regularly and loved them but I now have the Korg Grandstage and love the feel, sound and more importantly, the connection between the two. Ironically I now have a Yamaha YC61 and can’t bear to play piano sounds on it, but love it for Hammond and electric pianos.

I don't know the CP100. The YC61 isn't terrible for pianos when compared to other non-hammer actions, but you can't really compare to a hammer action, whether he Grandstage, or hammer action Yamaha, even the YC73 and YC88 that are otherwise virtually the same as the YC61.

[Mark Schmieder]

On 2/10/2023 at 8:35 PM, MathOfInsects said:

Yeah, it’s like a great steak.

I grew up on Mason & Hamlin (four individual pianos across different family members) and Steinway (which I never liked as much). I feel like I can coax a wider range of dynamics from M&H, but the main thing is the tactile feel, as M&H uniquely has a bracing system that results in the keys vibrating in unison with the instrument. It's hard for me to get used to other acoustic pianos, much less DP's, as a result of a lifetime of playing M&H!

[cjfox]

There used be a chart someone did, carefully weighing the DP keys in grams. Can't find it now. My own personal experience with DPs goes as follows: Yamaha P90, OK but got rattly and loose after a few years, got a CP40 for a good deal, thought it would be a high end experience, but hated it. Very heavy action "sludgy". Sounds were good, weighed a lot. I sold it. Got a Roland FP5, action was good, a very different experience than Yamaha, but it was heavy and I didn't like the sound. I sold it. Got a Casio PSX3000, liked the action and the sound. Got scared after watching the video about the weights being different on the black keys, but  I'm not a classical player so I played it a lot. The Casio tends towards the lighter end of actions. I still have have it, but am not using it live due to some reliability/build quality issues. Got a Kawai ES110. Definitely my favorite action, light but very dynamic. Limited sounds, the piano is great for solo playing, but doesn't cut well in an ensemble setting.  Recently got a Roland RD88. I got it mostly because I was needing a weighted board with a good piano sound and lots of other sounds. So far I am very happy with the RD88, the action is heavier than the Kawai lighter than the CP40, but nice and solid without being sludgy or tiring. The sound is great, the live recordings I have done confirm that the piano sound is the sound I want be presenting. I  play at a blues jam every week where I play the house Yamaha baby grand, so I think I have an idea about an acoustic piano in an ensemble setting. I guess the bottom line, is that action and piano choice are a very individual thing. My 2 cents. 

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, Mark Schmieder said:

I grew up on Mason & Hamlin (four individual pianos across different family members) and Steinway (which I never liked as much). I feel like I can coax a wider range of dynamics from M&H, but the main thing is the tactile feel, as M&H uniquely has a bracing system that results in the keys vibrating in unison with the instrument. It's hard for me to get used to other acoustic pianos, much less DP's, as a result of a lifetime of playing M&H!

It’s one of those, “If you know, you know” things. I think Steinways sound buttery and pure, and yet I’ll take the complexity of my M&H and that instant finger-to-ear connection any day.

 

Come to think of it, maybe that’s why I’m not a purist about DP action and sound (within limits); I know it’s never going to sound or feel like my grand, so I don’t expect it to. For those whose pianos have purer pitch and smoother action, a DP can get frustratingly close.

[Docbop]

Yer talkin like guitar players you have your live gear, studio gear, and never leave the house gear.   Live/audition gear is is generally playable and easily replaceable if it gets ripped off or damaged.   

[Lady Gaia]

I like my CP88's action better than any other piano-style digital action I've played - but after being away from my SK-7 grand for 14 months thanks to COVID, I was in for a rude awakening when I returned.  The Shigeru Kawai felt feather light by comparison to a degree that was actually quite off-putting.  So I'd agree with the OP's assertion that digital actions tend to be heavier.  So why do I like the CP88 so much better than the RD2000, Korg Grandstage, Kurzweil Forte, and others?  That's a more complicated question.  I haven't done an exhaustive study, but there seem to be a lot of subtle interacting factors:

• In general, the more I feel like I'm overcoming inertia and the less it feels like I'm pushing against constant resistance, the better.  An action like the TP-8/Piano used in Sequential's Prophet XL ranks right at the bottom for me because you're fighting a spring the whole way down (which is why I stuck with the synth action Prophet X instead.)  The premium actions I've tried generally do at least an okay job here.
• Ideally, once a key is in motion it should tend to stay in motion until it bottoms out with a woody thunk.  So materials and cushioning make a difference for me as well.  This is where the Korg actions tended to disappoint the most for my taste as they seem to have a relatively soft landing.  The wooden keys of the CP88 probably play a role here but it could be psychological.
• It shouldn't take much effort to hold keys down, which is again where the sprung actions feel so wrong as it takes a non-trivial amount of pressure to keep those keys down which gets fatiguing, fast.
• Once released keys should accelerate back into their upright position quickly where their motion is again arrested.  The ability to retrigger a key that hasn't fully returned doubtless helps here on actions that support it like the CP88, but a slow return also interacts with the inertial feeling of a subsequent strike.

I don't claim to have any real conclusions other than knowing what I like, and being surprised at how different two actions I like can be.  Switching between the two is definitely disconcerting so that's a whole different consideration.

[Ibarch]

I want to view this from a different angle. I was taught classical piano to a decent standard. The two real pianos I have play extensively are my Bluthner upright, which has been in the family for 3 generations and a gorgeous Steinway grand. No other acoustic pianos I play come close to these. The action, connection I have with these instruments and the pure quality of the sound is - to date - unsurpassed. 

 

A couple of years back I spent a long time looking for a digital piano and tried all makes I could. I'm taking "traditional" digital pianos and stage pianos , not keyboards. I have never been a big Yamaha fan. They had the best action back in the 90s in my opinion but the quality of sounds never lived up to it. I much preferred the Roland sounds at the time but the keys never responded in quite a natural fashion. 

 

So in my search I started with these two makes and was very disappointed by both. The tones, resonance and  feel fell short. Casio surprised me by how far they had come but still weren't quite up there. I won't list every make here as nothing was better than the Roland/yamahas until I came across the Kawai concert artist. For me they stood out as head and shoulders above the rest. They are, for a digital piano, stunningly good. So that is what I have bought. 

 

I can swap effortlessly from acoustic pianos to my Kawai. I can play my full range of classical pieces on it. I strongly disagree with posters who claim that this is not possible with a digital piano.  I have zero issues controlling volume or  playing fast sections. Nothing insults the ears as I play. The Kawai handles it all. I don't have the technical knowledge to talk actions, weights, etc but in playing there is no doubt for me. The Kawai beats 90% of accoustic pianos I have encountered. 

 

Will it surpass a real Steinway or my Bluthner? Not a chance. But give me my Kawai over anything else every day of the week. 

 

As a footnote, I also use a Roland RD-88 for gigging. It isnt in the same class as my Kawai but it still gives a decent piano feel. I'm happy enough with it on the basis of everything else it brings. No keyboard is perfect and I'll gladly take the compromises for the package as a whole. Can I play classical stuff on it? Yes, I can do that too. In my opinion, digital piano tech is good enough today. You just need to pick the right one for your technique and style. 

[drawback]

2 hours ago, Ibarch said:

in my search I started with these two makes and was very disappointed by both. The tones, resonance and  feel fell short. Casio surprised me by how far they had come but still weren't quite up there. I won't list every make here as nothing was better than the Roland/yamahas until I came across the Kawai concert artist. For me they stood out as head and shoulders above the rest. They are, for a digital piano, stunningly good. So that is what I have bought. 

 

I can swap effortlessly from acoustic pianos to my Kawai. I can play my full range of classical pieces on it. I strongly disagree with posters who claim that this is not possible with a digital piano.  I have zero issues controlling volume or  playing fast sections. Nothing insults the ears as I play. The Kawai handles it all. I don't have the technical knowledge to talk actions, weights, etc but in playing there is no doubt for me. The Kawai beats 90% of accoustic pianos I have encountered. 

I’ve had my eye on the Kawai CA series lately, but haven’t played any of them. I did have an opportunity to play both of the Nova line, and just loved the Novus 5 (real upright action). Have you tried one? Just wondering what your impression might be.

[Ibarch]

17 hours ago, drawback said:

I’ve had my eye on the Kawai CA series lately, but haven’t played any of them. I did have an opportunity to play both of the Nova line, and just loved the Novus 5 (real upright action). Have you tried one? Just wondering what your impression might be.

I've had quick go on them but not enough to offer an informed opinion. I am blessed with a Kawai dealer locally so now I have an excuse to call in again in the name of research. Give me a week or two and I will report back. 

[CowboyNQ]

I have a Baldwin baby grand at home, which I LOVE the action on.

 

My DP is a Korg SV-1, which also plays very nicely.  It’s not as good as the AP, but close enough for me to feel happy with it.

 

I often use Roland RD models when on tour, and find their actions to be heavier and more sluggish than my Korg.  But still acceptable.

 

I have to say that no two AP actions I’ve played are exactly identical either.  I think a lot of it is down to a) personal preference and b) what one is used to.

[Justin Havu]

I've got two DP's--my church's CP300 and my RD-1000.  Primarily, I use the RD.  That keybed just feels right to me, and playing near the back of the keys is nearly effortless.  The CP300 is totally stiff, slow, and heavy, and I have the hardest time with it.  Only other DP I got to try out recently was the P-515, and I found that action way heavier and harder to play than the CP300.

 

I think I'll stick with my 37-year-old RD-1000.

[Outkaster]

On 2/10/2023 at 11:27 AM, SMcD said:

I've brought this up in a few threads over the past couple of weeks, but it's still on my mind and I figure it warrants its own topic.

 

A few weeks ago, I used a borrowed Yamaha CP4 in a rehearsal, and it felt awful. As I've said in a couple other threads, it was almost like pushing a wooden desk with my fingers. The action was just so dense, and something about the way the keys bottomed out sent jolts up through my hands when playing mf or louder.

 

The CP4 seems to be a fairly well-regarded DP, so I started wondering as to why I had such a bad experience playing it. Especially since it's not the first DP I've struggled with. These days, when I do play piano it's usually on a digital; and I find myself with less dexterity than I'd like on many of them.

 

Part of me wonders if my piano chops have atrophied a bit. My current rig is a Kurzweil PC3LE8 and a Hammond SK2. Because the former weighs about 20 pounds more than the latter, I naturally find myself reaching for the SK2 in one-keyboard settings. Thus, I'm more of an organist than a pianist these days. Obviously strength isn't much of a factor on waterfall keys, so maybe I've just gotten weak?

 

But then last week, I had the opportunity to sit at a well-maintained baby grand (Kohler & Campbell; not a major brand from what I gather) and my fingers just flew. The hammers did exactly what I wanted them to, and it didn't feel like a massive effort. I've also sat at some real "beater" uprights that played a lot easier than their condition would suggest.

 

Seems to me that one of two things must be happening here:

 

1. My piano chops have weakened. On the few recent occasions where I've sat at an AP, I happened to get lucky and find ones with relatively light action.
2. Most DP's genuinely have actions that are heavier (and, arguably, less playable) than most AP's.

 

I need a sanity check here. For those of you who are playing more piano than me, what has your experience been? Do you struggle more on DP actions? Which DP's feel more authentic and/or effortless to you? Or do I just need to toughen up?

 It's you...we all kind of go through this.

[skipeb3]

There used be a chart someone did, carefully weighing the DP keys in grams.

 Is this it?

[CyberGene]

This chart measures the weight needed for the key to start producing sound. It can be argued this is a totally useless comparison. Even if it measured actual downweight (as understood by piano technicians), it would still be rather useless since downweight can be regulated through the use of added lead counterweights but that would only affect pianissimos. For anything above pianissimos it's the inertia of the key that matters and it's not easily measurable. For instance, imagine the hammer was 1 ton, way too heavy, right? Now, you add enough lead counterweights in front of the key and bring the downweight down to the standard 50g. But is it playable? Well, good luck moving quickly 2 tons of inertia 😉

 

I think whoever brought that table did mostly introduce a lot of misunderstanding and confusion for years to come with people referring to it as a bible of piano feel while it means almost absolutely nothing. Just some table with numbers and nothing else.

[Leroy C]

That table is following me from site to site.   

Please take all that with a grain of salt.  MANY people have disputed the numbers there.  For example, there are two different pivot lengths associated with the PHA-50 ...

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, TheophilusCarter said:

That table is following me from site to site.   

Please take all that with a grain of salt.  MANY people have disputed the numbers there.  For example, there are two different pivot lengths associated with the PHA-50 ...

I noticed that the CP73 has different figures for (what I presume are) the lower, mid, and upper sections of the keyboard... but the CP73 has a balanced action, not a graded one, so unlike most other boards, the figures should be the same across the board (as they are for the balanced Montage and Nord Grand). There are also some Fatar-based Kurzweil and Nords that have non-graded actions that nevertheless are showing variation. Hmm!