DP actions: is it just me, or...

[SMcD]

I've brought this up in a few threads over the past couple of weeks, but it's still on my mind and I figure it warrants its own topic.

 

A few weeks ago, I used a borrowed Yamaha CP4 in a rehearsal, and it felt awful. As I've said in a couple other threads, it was almost like pushing a wooden desk with my fingers. The action was just so dense, and something about the way the keys bottomed out sent jolts up through my hands when playing mf or louder.

 

The CP4 seems to be a fairly well-regarded DP, so I started wondering as to why I had such a bad experience playing it. Especially since it's not the first DP I've struggled with. These days, when I do play piano it's usually on a digital; and I find myself with less dexterity than I'd like on many of them.

 

Part of me wonders if my piano chops have atrophied a bit. My current rig is a Kurzweil PC3LE8 and a Hammond SK2. Because the former weighs about 20 pounds more than the latter, I naturally find myself reaching for the SK2 in one-keyboard settings. Thus, I'm more of an organist than a pianist these days. Obviously strength isn't much of a factor on waterfall keys, so maybe I've just gotten weak?

 

But then last week, I had the opportunity to sit at a well-maintained baby grand (Kohler & Campbell; not a major brand from what I gather) and my fingers just flew. The hammers did exactly what I wanted them to, and it didn't feel like a massive effort. I've also sat at some real "beater" uprights that played a lot easier than their condition would suggest.

 

Seems to me that one of two things must be happening here:

 

1. My piano chops have weakened. On the few recent occasions where I've sat at an AP, I happened to get lucky and find ones with relatively light action.
2. Most DP's genuinely have actions that are heavier (and, arguably, less playable) than most AP's.

 

I need a sanity check here. For those of you who are playing more piano than me, what has your experience been? Do you struggle more on DP actions? Which DP's feel more authentic and/or effortless to you? Or do I just need to toughen up?

[CEB]

They all suck until you play them.  Change sucks. The hands aren’t at home. Like wearing a stiff new pair of boots for the first time.  
 

Play the piano until the piano plays you and it will fix itself. 

[ElmerJFudd]

I would imagine there is something to playing unweighted keys most of the time and then switching, yes. Like driving manual/stick on a 4 cylinder commuter car  and then jumping into an F150. 
 

That said, your other point is also correct.  There are very few digital pianos that really play as well through the entire dynamic range of the real deal.  Hence, they are obligated to offer several velocity curves in their settings to try to match what you are used to and how much control your playing style requires.  Go back to the CP4 or whichever you have access to and change the settings.  You are working too hard and you need to adjust the velocity curve and your technique to a weighted action digital.  You can in fact cause injury if you continue as you were. 
 

There are only 2 digitals that have most of a real piano action in them. Avant Grand and Novus.  And neither will ever be the 30 some odd pounds of the Yamaha CP4 to be dragged around in a bag for gigs. 
 

 

[Farfisakid]

My first thought after reading your post was that the Cp 4 you played most be as banged up/used /rough condition as my 10+ year CP 4.  Regardless of wether it’s that or perhaps you have discovered that you prefer a lighter action due to being more of an organ player or perhaps age (as in my case) no need to beat yourself up over it. My suggestion FWIW is to use a keyboard that works for you rather than try to train yourself to play on something that’s not your thing. All the best with it ...

[The Real MC]

The action of today's DPs are a major pet peeve of mine.  They are too stiff and remind me of the awful experience playing on Rhodes pianos during the 1970s.  My hands actually hurt after a gig playing on a DP, and I'm a lifetime piano player.  There are certain piano techniques/runs that are just impossible to play on a modern DP.  Every time I walk past some DPs in a store I'll press some keys and they are too stiff.  I went through three of them - no more.

[ProfD]

2 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

...velocity curves... Go back to the CP4 or whichever you have access to and change the settings.

This would be a great place to start especially if one has to play a DP for a gig or whatever reason. 

 

Some DPs manufacturers will refer to the velocity settings as light, medium or heavy.

 

Not all DP actions are made the same.  Try different make/model DPs and adjust the velocity settings too.

 

Since I mainly play weighted keys, I don't have to adjust the velocity settings on DPs. 

 

But, it's great to know DP velocity settings exist in the event I get too old and/or lose finger strength.😁😎

[Sam Mullins]

2 hours ago, CEB said:

(They all suck until you play them.  Change sucks. The hands aren’t at home. Like wearing a stiff new pair of boots for the first time.  
 

Play the piano until the piano plays you and it will fix itself. 

Obviously there are objectively bad actions...but there is some truth here.  I LOVED my Yamaha S90ES and when I got my first weighted Nord (Stage 2), I was really not happy.    Now that I've been on a Stage 2/Stage 3 for many years, it is fine.  I suspect if I went back to same action I loved so much on S90ES I would find it to be too heavy now.  

 

 

[Leroy C]

Whoops, did I accidentally log in to Piano World? ... 

 

[SamuelBLupowitz]

I had this same experience with a rehearsal space's CP4, nearly ten years ago now. I was so excited to get to play the well-regarded Yamaha DP (the same one Chuck Leavell uses with the Stones!), and I was deeply disappointed by what I felt like was an extremely heavy action and a sound that wouldn't cut through a mix at all. I felt like I was working twice as hard for half the presence I was used to with the Casio Privia I gigged with at the time. My band rehearsed in that space for about a year, and I never got comfortable with that board.

 

I'm sure the poor amplification (the much-derided Roland KC amp) didn't help, and it was a rented rehearsal room often used by children and teens, so who knows what had been done to that CP4. I know it had some weirdness on the digital side of things (it would default to a weird transposition setting, like a minor third down from A440 or something), so I'm wondering if that contributed somehow. Maybe some saved EQ setting, or output issues, not sure.

 

But the CP88 I purchased in 2021 has been much kinder to my fingers, even if getting a digital to cut through a mix in a way that "feels" like an acoustic piano is still a mix of art and science. I tend to instinctively play more aggressively to compensate for 1) being drowned out by drums and 2) to get the physical response of hammers striking strings and making the body resonate -- and no amount of heavier playing can bring that out on a digital!

 

So I just try to make sure I give myself plenty of headroom for piano in the monitors, and get myself louder than I think I need to in my mix, so I can play more dynamically. And for what it's worth, I set the action response on my CP88 to the lighter setting.

[Docbop]

Coming from decades of guitar and bass this is an interesting topic to me.  On guitar and bass you can setup your instruments to the action you like with string choice and adjusting/setup of physical aspects of the instrument.    Now I tend to use a heavy setup on my instruments and when I was in school or playing daily my hands would get stronger and I would adjust my instrument to even heavier action.    When I was around the great bassist Marcus Miller for awhile he's said when he is touring and playing every day same thing his hands get stronger and he increase his action to be harder.    Hanging around sax teacher I hear them talk about reed stiffness and seems to be same thing the more you play and stronger your embouchure the heavier reed people use.    

 

I'm still early stage in my piano playing, but isn't piano the same thing if your playing everyday especially regular gigging don't your hands get stronger and heavier action works better for you.       I've only had a AP for short time an old Wurlitzer upright and for me the action was too light.   I finally got rid of it being an apartment dweller and had to watch the volume and it was hard to play softly.   

 

So doesn't the keyboard action you favor change with how often you play?

[Adam Burgess]

2 hours ago, CEB said:

They all suck until you play them.  Change sucks. The hands aren’t at home. Like wearing a stiff new pair of boots for the first time.  
 

Play the piano until the piano plays you and it will fix itself. 

I dunno. Most I can get used to.

But, the almost perfect keyboard for me; the Arturia Keylab II 88* just let me down. It bottomed out horribly, and I tried for months.
Solo, recodring, and live.
 

The only other one I have a real problem with is the Nord Electro's keybed. I could play better organ on a Stage 2, which I loved.

*(also on a couple of Numas?)

[SMcD]

Seems to be a bit of a subjective thing. That's somewhat reassuring.

 

One recurring point that confuses me: the suggestion that difficulties with the CP4 action could arise from playing on an older, beat-up unit. Surely wear&tear over time would make the action a bit looser, not heavier and stiffer?

[Al Quinn]

I practice on an acoustic Yamaha C3 and my goal for a DP is to able to seamlessly switch from the C3 to the DP. The CP4 works fine for me. The P-515 even better. I couldn’t get along with my Nord Stage 2 HA88 — although it sounded very good I hated the action. Perhaps if I practiced on it we could have become friends but, as I mentioned, I practice on the acoustic C3. 
 

For the OP perhaps a YC73 would feel good as its action is on the light side (more like an EP than an AP but nice to play). I also played a Kawaii ES110 which had a light action. 

 

 

[SMcD]

 

10 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

I practice on an acoustic Yamaha C3 and my goal for a DP is to able to seamlessly switch from the C3 to the DP. The CP4 works fine for me. The P-515 even better. I couldn’t get along with my Nord Stage 2 HA88 — although it sounded very good I hated the action. Perhaps if I practiced on it we could have become friends but, as I mentioned, I practice on the acoustic C3. 
 

For the OP perhaps a YC73 would feel good as its action is on the light side (more like an EP than an AP but nice to play). I also played a Kawaii ES110 which had a light action. 

 

 

 

I'd like my next purchase to be a board that feels (and sounds) good for piano, but also has some solid synth capabilities. The PC3LE8 has kept me reasonably happy there since 2012, but it's getting to be time for an upgrade. I had my eye on the PC4, but after some recent discussions about that I'm not so sure anymore.

 

I'll keep the YC73 rec in mind, but the thing that I don't want to resign myself to playing piano sounds on something that doesn't feel like a piano. I grew up playing piano, I've got some classical training under my belt, and it'd feel like a personal failing to take the "easy way out".

 

Therefore, I'm hoping to find out from this thread whether there are other players for whom "feels like a real piano" means something lighter than the Yamaha DP actions, or if it's a PEBCAK* situation I need to address.

 

*PEBCAK = Problem Exists Between Chair and Keyboard.  

[MathOfInsects]

57 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

 I couldn’t get along with my Nord Stage 2 HA88 — although it sounded very good I hated the action. Perhaps if I practiced on it we could have become friends but, as I mentioned, I practice on the acoustic C3. 

The Stage is not usually grouped in among the first tier of DP weighted actions; it's too light for most piano-centric players, since it's attempting to be a compromise among the piano, organ, and synth sections. It "skews" weighted, but I think most purely-piano players would find it kind of chintzy feeling.

I'd be curious, though, to hear your thoughts on the Grand. My piano at home is a Mason & Hamlin grand, whose action is  (for me) the perfect mix of substantial and subtle. I usually find even the most highly vaunted of the DPs kind of stiff and clinical. But the Grand spoke to me immediately. 

Anyway, OP, as I generally say in threads about this topic...the only way to play the action of a grand piano is to play a grand piano. Otherwise the trick is to bond with a DP's action in its own right, as opposed to comparing it to the one thing it's not, by definition.

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, SMcD said:

1. Most DP's genuinely have actions that are heavier (and, arguably, less playable) than most AP's.

That is my experience exactly.

 

And as for those who suggest you just need to adjust... acoustics themselves vary widely, but rarely need any kind of "adjustment period" to play satisfactorily.

 

1 hour ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

I had this same experience with a rehearsal space's CP4, nearly ten years ago now. I was so excited to get to play the well-regarded Yamaha DP (the same one Chuck Leavell uses with the Stones!), and I was deeply disappointed by what I felt like was an extremely heavy action and a sound that wouldn't cut through a mix at all. I felt like I was working twice as hard for half the presence I was used to with the Casio Privia I gigged with at the time.

Likewise, I did not care for the CP4 I played in the store... and I still prefer my older Casios over almost any 88 manufactured today.

 

1 hour ago, Al Quinn said:

For the OP perhaps a YC73 would feel good as its action is on the light side (more like an EP than an AP but nice to play).

I like the YC73 action (since the software update that permits you to better tweak the velocity response). I still don't like it as much as my old Casios, though.

 

1 hour ago, Docbop said:

I've only had a AP for short time an old Wurlitzer upright and for me the action was too light.   I finally got rid of it being an apartment dweller and had to watch the volume and it was hard to play softly.   

 

So doesn't the keyboard action you favor change with how often you play?

Yet even though you didn't play often and you don't (yet) have the strongest hands, you still found the actual acoustic Wurli to feel too light! Imagine if your hands were that much stronger... But it is again an indication of how people who have played most DPs can be surprised by how much lighter many/most actual acoustic pianos feel. 

[Lou Gehrig Charles]

I couldn't get along with a Yamaha P-125, so I wound up returning it in less than a week, in favor of a Casio which was slightly cheaper.  The Yamaha played like a stick in the mud.  Sure, I probably could have gotten used to it eventually but it was also missing all the good EP and synth sounds I liked that were on my earlier, cheapie Casio.

[drawback]

I've tried almost all the DPs mentioned over the years and have found Korg's Japanese RH3 action to suit me the best – better than my Kawai grand, as much as we've worked on it, and better than the Yamaha grand I play at work. The former's never broken in; the latter's been played the crap out of.

[time4jazz]

I have generally struggled to connect with DP actions. I do like the CP73 though. The keys do not feel too springy. The initial key press does not feel like the key is fighting back.  And I think the action is especially good given the relatively light weight of the keyboard. 

[CyberGene]

All DP actions push back against your fingers too much. On a real piano the keys get lighter once you throw the hammer and you can feel that happen under your fingers which makes them easier to play, you don’t combat the keys all the time. It’s subtle and needs a lot of unnecessary technical explanation (I can do it and have done countless times) but basically I agree all DP actions suck. 

[SMcD]

10 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

All DP actions push back against your fingers too much. On a real piano the keys get lighter once you throw the hammer and you can feel that happen under your fingers which makes them easier to play, you don’t combat the keys all the time. It’s subtle and needs a lot of unnecessary technical explanation (I can do it and have done countless times) but basically I agree all DP actions suck. 

 

A REVELATION.

 

Yes, "weighted" does not seem to mean the same thing on a DP. It makes sense that once you pressed the key on an AP, gravity would do the rest of the work for you. Especially on a grand. Sadly, most DP's emulate the hammers with nothing but pure weight, which is really only piano-like at the beginning of the key press. Thank you CyberGene, that makes so much sense!

 

So the question is, which actions best approximate the initial weight but also the eventual free movement of a real hammer? Preferably something with good synth capabilities too. And while I'm wishing, maybe it could brew coffee on the side  

[16251]

Aside from my Avantgrand N2, I've owned about four previous Yamaha DPs. I had a P150 with matching stand, it was my home piano. Then I had a Kurzweil PC88mx. I actually enjoyed that piano except it liked going to the repair shop. After that I had a P80, then a P90 which was only marginally better. Skipping ahead I owned a CP4. My first thought is I considered all them tools to make money. With all the promise of a great stage piano I was expecting the CP4 to be better than what came before it but I must say I enjoyed the P80/90 action more. Didn't like: bottoming out on my fingers, initial resistance playing pianissimo, not a very dynamic range, didn't care for CFX sample (I only used CFiii, which begs the question why I didn't buy a CP40,) at first liked Rhodes but they to lacked a dynamic range, didn't like the interface learning curve, missed internal speakers (I had a Roland FP7 and then my favorite DP, the FP4 (moved on from that cause I got tired of the bad Rhodes samples.) This is my opinion and know it is beloved by many here. Always wished Yamaha would take Avantgrand samples and migrate them to a stage piano, but it probably would of been a bad business strategy. 

 

Anyway, love my current home and stage piano...

[AnotherScott]

I like the CP88/YC88 action except I wish it wasn't so graded... the lower section of the keyboard is heavier feeling than I'd like. I liked the action of the CP1/CP5 though I only had one brief experience with it, long ago. Other than those, I can't think of any Yamaha hammer action portable keyboards that struck me as being particularly appealing, though I can't say I've played all of them.

[Al Quinn]

3 hours ago, SMcD said:

I'll keep the YC73 rec in mind, but the thing that I don't want to resign myself to playing piano sounds on something that doesn't feel like a piano. I grew up playing piano, I've got some classical training under my belt, and it'd feel like a personal failing to take the "easy way out".

 

Therefore, I'm hoping to find out from this thread whether there are other players for whom "feels like a real piano" means something lighter than the Yamaha DP actions, or if it's a PEBCAK* situation I need to address.

 

*PEBCAK = Problem Exists Between Chair and Keyboard.  

Yeah, I certainly understand appreciate the approach you’re taking as you’ve described in the first paragraph.

 

I spend the winter months in Florida and although I said I practice on an acoustic Yamaha C3 I should more accurately say that that’s only true when I’m in NY for the warmer months. While in Florida I practice on a P-515. Once in awhile I’ll go to the jam session at the local jazz club where they have a wonderfully maintained Yamaha C7. After not playing a real acoustic piano for weeks, I play at the jam session and feel like I’ve been practicing on an acoustic grand all along. I feel like I shouldn’t be in good shape but I am.  I have to admit I was pleasantly surprised to experience this as I expected to struggle. Much to my surprise I no longer feel a burning desire for an acoustic piano in the Florida condo.

[Al Quinn]

2 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I'd be curious, though, to hear your thoughts on the Grand. My piano at home is a Mason & Hamlin grand, whose action is  (for me) the perfect mix of substantial and subtle. I usually find even the most highly vaunted of the DPs kind of stiff and clinical. But the Grand spoke to me immediately. 

I haven’t had the opportunity to play a Nord Grand. Hopefully, some day…

 

I’ve played a Mason & Hamlin grand and loved it! It sounded like an orchestra to me. So many beautiful colors. I was helping a fellow forumite shop for a piano and he ended up buying that Mason & Hamlin grand. Awesome instrument!

[16251]

1 minute ago, Dave Ferris said:

 

 Comparing all three through my Senn HD650s, I hear both the P515 and CP88 sounding superior to the N3X sample. I never play the latter with phones, I actually hear that CFX sample as sounding too enclosed, no air or space to the sound and generally pretty crappy. If it's late at night or if I know my wife is tired, I'll just turn the volume down real low, or better yet, just go out to the studio and practice. I do like the acoustics of the living room where the AG sits a lot, so it has gotten more use in the two years of ownership then I anticipated.

 

What makes the difference of course is the AG action and its speaker system that's optimally designed, or tuned, to give the player a closer experience to a grand. Also, when you start putting the AG through external powered pa speakers in a live context, it definitely loses some of its mojo, as opposed to hearing it only with its internal speakers.

I tried NX1/3 and obviously are newer tech samples but I didn't like CFX. Kind of good for me since I don't GAS to upgrade my N2. Long live the CFiii. 

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, Al Quinn said:

I haven’t had the opportunity to play a Nord Grand. Hopefully, some day…

 

I’ve played a Mason & Hamlin grand and loved it! It sounded like an orchestra to me. So many beautiful colors. I was helping a fellow forumite shop for a piano and he ended up buying that Mason & Hamlin grand. Awesome instrument!

Yeah, it’s like a great steak.

[ElmerJFudd]

I’m getting along very well with the CP88 and a pair of 8” studio monitors on stands about 5’ apart and 3’ behind the keyboard.  I can practice and work on any kind of rep without stress or impact issues or becoming fatigued.  When I walk off it my muscles have definitely had a workout and it’s similar feeling to the acoustics I play on.  
 

But yes, to some small but noticeable  percentage it is more work than say - what they put in a Boston, Kawai, or Yamaha baby grand.  However, the CP88 is an improvement in my opinion to the GH balanced that was in the S90ES which I used prior.  That action is a similar mechanism but the impact could be fatiguing.  If I had to guess it could have been how I dug into the aftertouch strip when woodshedding tough stuff.  That definitely, for me, meant adjusting technique.  

[AnotherScott]

I think there's also that elusive FTEC factor. How well the action "connects" with the sounds, such that it really feels like you're "playing the instrument" more so than "triggering recordings of sounds". That may be a slight overstatement, there's not a hard cutoff between the two, but sometimes something just feels more "real" and that makes it feel better even if, isolated from the sound, the keys don't feel so great. I think that was part of the magic of the EPs on the SV1. RH3 is an okay-but-not-first-rate action, but when you played the Rhodes on that board, it just felt real, you have the sense that hammers are hitting tines. Similarly, I've mentioned before that I quite enjoy playing the Dexibell P3 with its Fatar TP100. The speakers are loud and full-bodied, and you really feel the "vibrations of the strings" in your fingers. I like it, not because it feels like you're playing a great piano, but because it feels very much like you're playing a real piano even if it might not be your favorite real piano to play. That sense of authenticity (even if authentic to only a passable acoustic) makes it satisfying to play in a way many DPs are not, you have the sense that there are real strings vibrating in the thing. I suspect that other DPs with above average speaker systems might benefit from that same phenomenon, like the FP-90X or P515, neither of which I've had the opportunity to play.

[ElmerJFudd]

41 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I think there's also that elusive FTEC factor. How well the action "connects" with the sounds, such that it really feels like you're "playing the instrument" more so than "triggering recordings of sounds". That may be a slight overstatement, there's not a hard cutoff between the two, but sometimes something just feels more "real" and that makes it feel better even if, isolated from the sound, the keys don't feel so great. I think that was part of the magic of the EPs on the SV1. RH3 is an okay-but-not-first-rate action, but when you played the Rhodes on that board, it just felt real, you have the sense that hammers are hitting tines. Similarly, I've mentioned before that I quite enjoy playing the Dexibell P3 with its Fatar TP100. The speakers are loud and full-bodied, and you really feel the "vibrations of the strings" in your fingers. I like it, not because it feels like you're playing a great piano, but because it feels very much like you're playing a real piano even if it might not be your favorite real piano to play. That sense of authenticity (even if authentic to only a passable acoustic) makes it satisfying to play in a way many DPs are not, you have the sense that there are real strings vibrating in the thing. I suspect that other DPs with above average speaker systems might benefit from that same phenomenon, like the FP-90X or P515, neither of which I've had the opportunity to play.

I have the same opinion on the RH3 in Korg’s instruments. It feels quite right with EPs on the SV1 but I was not pleased with the connection to its AP sounds.  This has been improved to some extent in the SV2.  I did not care much for the RH3 in the Grand Stage.  Side by side with an MODX8, I rather play that.  That’s surprising, as the GHS is not amazing, but the sound connection for me was better. 🤷‍♂️