Do you think it’s important to practice technique on an acoustic piano?

[Montunoman 2]

The other day my jazz piano teacher, who also coaches me  on the physical motion of piano technique, told me I should it would benefit me to practice on an acoustic instrument to develop a better touch/ technique. I pointed out that I rarely do gigs on an acoustic but he said it didn’t matter. I also made it clear that if I got an acoustic it have a really an old cheap 

upright , console or spinet. I’m afraid I’d pay more to get an acoustic moved, tuned and repaired than the instrument is worth! 
 

I am happy with my digital, but I respect my teacher, he plays great. He is a young guy , but quite the purist, so maybe that’s where he’s coming from. 
 

i found some Baldwin Acrosonics from the 50’s that look nice. I don’t want to spend over 2K, including moving and tuning so I’m really on a shoe string budget. Not sure if my budget is realistic get a descent instrument for technique practice, but teacher thinks even an piano acoustic in that price range would benefit me. 
 

Thoughts? 

[ElmerJFudd]

Well, I won’t argue against the idea that the mechanism on acoustic pianos is different.  Longer keys, more moving parts that allow for more timbres and coloration to come from the stings than any digital can at the moment - certainly any we gig with.    They also tend to be a good work out and when played with piano technique typically cause less fatigue and strain.   
 

When you take lesson with him I presume you’re on acoustic piano?  So, he’s perhaps seeing certain motions you make or aren’t making as related to good piano technique.  And he’s suggesting if you practiced on one you’d better understand why he’s saying, “play it this way”.   
 

As has been mentioned a lot, you won’t benefit from a poor acoustic instrument.   So I’d suggest maybe a rental with possible option to own.  Inflation isn’t making this the best time to invest in big purchases for anyone at the moment.  

[Docbop]

I kind of look at like I did as a guitar player for decades.   I mainly played electric guitar or bass, but I would practice acoustic guitar to help with technique and controlling tone from my hands.   All things that would add a little something to my electric playing.  Practicing on acoustic  instruments brings you in closer to being a part of the instrument.    

 

Now I had an acoustic piano for awhile and tried to enjoy it, but living in an apartment I was constantly worried about the volume.  Also acoustic pianos are big and tuning is not cheap. So that led me to getting rid of the acoustic.  What you might want to do is check around where you live for school with practice rooms you might be able to talk your way into.  Or like when I worked in a rehearsal studio we'd get guitar player in by themselves so they could play loud and work on technique or timbre of the guitar rig.    You might want to find a rehearsal studio with nice acoustic piano and rent some time.   We did it where I worked and if someone said they just wanted to practice by themselve we'd give them a cheaper rate since it would be a big mess to clean up afterwards.   I remember reading about Aretha Franklin used to rent time in a recording studio  just so she could play their Bosendorfer piano.    So maybe just renting time might be possible where you live.   Tell your piano teacher you'll wash his car every week in trade for a couple hours on his piano.   

[The Real MC]

I definitely prefer a real piano for practicing, especially technique like scales, Hanon, etc.

[Steve Nathan]

If you want to be a piano player, or a better piano player, you should practice on a real piano for the best results.  If you're more of a "keyboard" player who sometimes plays piano sounds on the gig, you are probably fine with what you have.

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, Docbop said:

I kind of look at like I did as a guitar player for decades.   I mainly played electric guitar or bass, but I would practice acoustic guitar to help with technique and controlling tone from my hands.   All things that would add a little something to my electric playing.  Practicing on acoustic  instruments brings you in closer to being a part of the instrument.    

 

Now I had an acoustic piano for awhile and tried to enjoy it, but living in an apartment I was constantly worried about the volume.  Also acoustic pianos are big and tuning is not cheap. So that led me to getting rid of the acoustic.  What you might want to do is check around where you live for school with practice rooms you might be able to talk your way into.  Or like when I worked in a rehearsal studio we'd get guitar player in by themselves so they could play loud and work on technique or timbre of the guitar rig.    You might want to find a rehearsal studio with nice acoustic piano and rent some time.   We did it where I worked and if someone said they just wanted to practice by themselve we'd give them a cheaper rate since it would be a big mess to clean up afterwards.   I remember reading about Aretha Franklin used to rent time in a recording studio  just so she could play their Bosendorfer piano.    So maybe just renting time might be possible where you live.   Tell your piano teacher you'll wash his car every week in trade for a couple hours on his piano.   

Docbop says exactly what I would say. I've played guitar for 50+ years and I have ALWAYS had an acoustic guitar and played it more than the electric when I'm at home. 

Most of my gigs have been on electric guitar.

Acoustic instruments are "honest", electric instruments can mislead. If you are good on an acoustic piano, you will be good on an electric piano. The reverse may not come to pass. 

[Joe Muscara]

Yeah, maybe a little more time on an acoustic somewhere would be enough. Not all your practice time, just more so you can really get the feel of them. Docbop makes some good suggestions. 
 

A beat up old vertical piano is probably not going to be helpful. A good one might be but those might be too much. You would have to get lucky and find a good one that’s used and a great deal. Used piano shopping is a bit of work and takes research and persistence. It can be fun though. 
 

Your budget probably leaves out the hybrids that have parts of an acoustic action giving it a great feel but are digital such as the Casio Grand Hybrids as well as those from other manufacturers that I’m drawing a blank on. You could check for your own sanity. 

[jazzpiano88]

Basically agree with Steve.  If you want to be able to play on a piano, you need to practice on a piano.  
 

After going off to college and playing on keyboards for years, whenever I encountered a real piano I felt like I couldn’t play it very well.    Once I owned a real piano later, everything felt right again and I was able to attain a zen like state. 

[AUSSIEKEYS]

There are nuances in a good acoustic that just dont translate to digital. But every acoustic is different and may demonstrate different nuances or none of worth.

 

  I agree with teacher but...

 

Having said that i just let my beloved Yamaha G1 baby grand go thats been in family since the 70s because i had to "save the ranch" and not wanting to move a grand piano or have to buy a downsized house that could fit a grand piano.

 

So 3 years ago i bought an older Kawai MP9500 wooden key digital as a portable replacement in anticipation of downsizing. It took me 3 years to come to grips with letting the yammy go. When i first tried the MP9500 i thought yeah its good but i cant replace the yammy with it so didnt play it for those 3 years as the yammy was still there

 

The yammy "left the building" recently so i did start playing the MP9500 due to an upcoming gig on my yammy at the new owners place.

 

Did i transition quickly to the MP9500 now the yammy was gone..yes the MP9500 feels very similar to a grand piano to play with only one real transition i had to make that was everytime i played a 2 note bass octave the lower note in particular clang loudly like the Hunchback hitting those damn bells.

 

I also found that same problem after practising band songs on the yammy grand piano then going to play my casio Privia in the band. Id blame the Casio being over sensitive. Well it wasnt. Just graded differently to my yammy acoustic.

 

It was the charactaristic of my yammy grand piano where the yammy grand didnt clang out loudly when i played it. I believe comes down to the difference in simply the digitals graded action in comparison to my actual grand. 

 

You see i now believe all acoustic actions will be different in the heaviness of the bass strings compared to other acoustics not just to digitals lightly graded actions..

 

What im trying to illustrate is every acoustic you play is going to be different thus you play on your own acoustic at home then when you play your teachers acoustic itll be different again.

 

I dont remember what digital you own but Is the cost and hassle of getting a cheap acoustic gonna be worth the risk it still may not get you closer to your teachers goal.

 

Here's an interesting fact. I like my Kawai wooden key digitals action but I remember playing a friends (brand new Kawai grand piano (a school music teacher who gigged constantly) and absolutley hated the action for a few songs i played. In fact it scared me off Kawai. I was just so used to my yammy.

 

Your Teacher is correct but if your funds and space dictate differently dont just buy willy nilly to fulfill that quest. Chances are you may not be happy.  Mind you there are lots of free pianos out there if you know what you are looking for.

 

Sorry i talk too much

[The Real MC]

2 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

Docbop says exactly what I would say. I've played guitar for 50+ years and I have ALWAYS had an acoustic guitar and played it more than the electric when I'm at home. 

Most of my gigs have been on electric guitar.

Acoustic instruments are "honest", electric instruments can mislead. If you are good on an acoustic piano, you will be good on an electric piano. The reverse may not come to pass. 

 

As someone who doesn't constantly play guitar, acoustic guitars are also good for building callouses especially twelve string guitars.

I took guitar lessons for a short time, long after I stopped piano lessons from which I already had a foundation of music theory.  I could play chords and knew theory, but needed to develop the coordination of picking/fingering.  When I wanted to practice at home, I plugged into a Fender Dual Showman Reverb into a Bandmaster cabinet (my version of a Twin Reverb).  Any overdriven distorted amp covered up sloppy technique, but you really heard it with that DSR rig!

[The Real MC]

The great Hammond artist Jimmy Smith practiced on a piano.

[Legatoboy]

I practice on acoustic piano... I never do serious study on my digitals unless I have to travel and want to practice when away... 

[ElmerJFudd]

Interesting suggestions.  Yes a Yamaha Avant Grand  is better to practice on than any other digital.  Because of the sound engine rather than strings it’s still short of the real thing.   But you do forget you’re on a digital from time to time when playing them.  

[cphollis]

I am the same as others -- playing a stiffer acoustic action is like going to the gym for your hands.  You may think your hands know a passage, but you don't really know it until you've played it repeatedly well on a real weighted action.  Also, the dynamics of tone production are different enough to be meaningful.

 

I don't think I've ever performed on an acoustic piano, but it's at least 50% of my practice. 

 

Also, a +1 for the AvantGrand -- it plays close enough to the real thing that you forget you're playing a digital.  I don't even think of it as a digital keyboard.

[JamPro]

My digital keyboard (Roland RD2000) has a much better keybed and much more responsive touch than 98% of playable acoustic pianos.  I know this because I occasionally go into piano stores and try out the instruments on display, both new and used.  I always leave thinking that in order to have a responsive expressive playing experience on par with what I have with my digital instrument, I would need to buy their most expensive instrument.

 

If I had a fine acoustic piano, I would play it every day.  But even finding an instrument that plays as well as my existing digital instrument would be difficult, and I could not afford that >$50k price.  Plus, I have need for easy amplification, portability, sending and receiving midi, and the capability to have the instrument make AP, EP, clav, and synth sounds.  Really the choice for me is pretty obvious.

[Tusker]

Yeah, there is a lot of variability in acoustics so it’s not all black and white. As a teenager I would practice on a light action upright and had to perform for exams on a heavy Bosendorfer. So I was always asking friends if I could practice on their pianos.

Mix things up a bit. Let us know what you find? 👍

[Al Quinn]

Up until a year ago I would have said yes to the need to practice on an acoustic piano. But, last winter I was in Florida for three months with only a Yamaha P-515 digital piano to practice on and was able to enjoy myself and improve my playing. I didn’t  expect this to be the case. I was surprised that once I got back to my Yamaha C3 acoustic I felt my playing improved after playing only the P-515 for the previous three months. 
 

Before buying the P-515 I struggled with the decision to buy an acoustic or digital piano. Ultimately, I decided I should probably get both; but digital first made most sense because I was in a condo and didn’t want to disturb the neighbors. I tried several digital pianos made for home use, which also happened to be more expensive, but bought the P-515 because it was the only one I was comfortable with. The action and finger-to-ear connection feels good to me. I’m shocked to say that I no longer feel the need to buy an acoustic piano for the condo.

 

 

[16251]

Once I moved out of family nest, I never had the space for a grand so it was uprights. Jump in time to last apartment before I was able to buy a house which I bought a CP-70 cheap at Daddys. This was before hybrids but was happy to finally own a piano with a quality grand action. It was a fail until I moved to house cause neighbors in apartment banged on ceiling every time I tried to practice.

 

I finally got tired of not having a quality sound with CP70 and decided I wanted an acoustic, but my house, which I still live in has no room for a grand. At this time the the first Yamaha hybrid was out (Grand Touch.) I liked the action but I didn't like the samples/price of instrument and searched for, what I thought would be the pinnacle of uprights, a Steinway K. It sounded great for a while (when it was tuned and voiced.) I always wanted a Steinway. Then on a blog, I read about the Avantgrand. I went and played one and immediately realized it was so much better than my Steinway K, so same day I put Steinway up for sale and bought a N2. This was 2011, and have loved it from first day.

 

IMHO, a grand action is a necessary tool to practice on. That being said, I still would own an upright if hybrids were not invented. I did go through a period of only having a digital to practice and play and never thought I could improve my technique. Sure, hybrids lack the resonance of real strings interacting with each other but having an in-tune piano with real grand action that I can record myself keeps me happy and interested.

 

Final thought - even if I had all the money to own a big house with a Steinway B, I would still keep N2.

[Outkaster]

This topic comes up every once in a while.  I came up on and upright.  My first teacher was the chair of the piano program at the music school I take lessons at.  Others are/were Julliard, Eastman or Oberlin educated instructors.  I always trusted their judgment when it came to playing on an acoustic.  They’d always tell me that development for your fingers happens better on a grand.  There was no way my mom was getting a grand in the late 70s.  The piano was given to us by the neighbors who were moving away. She inherited it, I was happy to be able to play it  but I always wanted a better piano.  Digitals were just coming in the early 80’s so I didn’t have much to compare a real piano to.  I carried that old upright around to my apartment when my mom went into assisted living in 2018.   I ended up selling it when I got a house in 2020.  The sound board ended up being damaged when they moved it so it wasn’t worth anything.  I got a deal on a 90’s G-3 from a couple who was having kids and the mother no longer wanted to play. One thing I noticed when you have a grand is that everything seems different.  Because of how they are strung you immediately have to get used to playing differently.  I understand now why the instructors were talking about when they always suggested a grand piano.  I tried practicing on a digital board but you don’t get the same inflection or feel.  The keys react very differently.

[re Pete]

Slowly push down an acoustic key vs digital. Feel the same?

[octa]

Have you played much on acoustic pianos in the past? It's a good idea to get to know several of them at some point. (their feel and dynamic responsiveness esp.)

 

The last few years I practice on Kawai VPC1 with various VST's. Occasionally i get to gig or play around on a grand or upright, and it usually seems/feels easier than playing the VPC1. So it translates well. But, maybe that's because I practiced many years on acoustics in the past? 

 

Pedaling is one thing that doesn't translate well from VPC1 to acoustic pianos though. I'd like to have an acoustic (or more realistic digital pedaling situation) around to work on that. 

[mate stubb]

Depending on your location, you may be able to find a decent grand piano to visit and practice on. I've always lived in university towns and there are always open practice rooms at the music school that you can play.

[jerrythek]

I can't help but feel that your teacher's answer is not clear enough... it's not just a $2000 budget... it's the instrument that must be judged. There is no doubt that a grand piano mechanism is the best to practice on, but it needs to be a halfway decent instrument/action. I had a beautiful large upright for over 30 years (I had bought it new and kept it well maintained), that was in great shape, but what a difference when I finally got a grand piano. Yes, the upright was better for me than most digital pianos would have been, but what a difference on the grand.

 

But I'd be very careful about just getting any acoustic piano for your budget to solve your need. If it isn't a good instrument it's just money wasted. I would have your teacher come with you to check out any instrument you are serious about considering. Let them help evaluate it before you spend your $$$.

 

 

 

[stoken6]

5 hours ago, Outkaster said:

One thing I noticed when you have a grand is that everything seems different.  Because of how they are strung you immediately have to get used to playing differently

This. The gravity return of the key on a grand action is quite different to an upright's sprung return.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Outkaster]

12 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

This. The gravity return of the key on a grand action is quite different to an upright's sprung return.

 

Cheers, Mike.

Right and then you have to practice enough to get used to it. 

[ElmerJFudd]

This is where we are at with access to “good” acoustic pianos.  There was a time when only the wealthiest people could afford one.  Then a time when the middle class could afford an upright or a rebuilt grand.  Then a time when a hammer action digital was $1k+ and now we have sub $1k hammer action digitals within reach of a huge percentage of the population. In this regard the situation from an access to piano keyboards  standpoint is better than it’s ever been in history.  
 

If the choice is lessons vs an expensive instrument. Well, lessons wins.  In a perfect world all would at least have an opportunity to sit at the real deal from time to time.  We do the best we can with what we have.  

[RABid]

I grew up learning to play on a real acoustic piano with horrible action. There are so many bad uprights out there. If you end up with one of those it can do more harm than good. $2000 piano budget is better spent on a high end Roland or Yamaha digital. $5000 to $10,000 you can start watching for a good used baby grand.

[David Emm]

Ideally, you'd have space for a baby grand, if not a full grand. In the real world, a DP makes better sense. I started on acoustic piano, so I understand the endless debate about feel, but IMO (for example), Yamaha DPs feel more crispy and responsive. There's a real but very tolerable space between the two worlds. It can also be a PITA to find various instruments to demo, but when has it NOT been a major quest? I had to play 12 or so raggedy-assed synths until I knew what I really needed.

[Montunoman 2]

3 hours ago, RABid said:

 There are so many bad uprights out there. If you end up with one of those it can do more harm than good. $2000 piano budget is better spent on a high end Roland or Yamaha digital. $5000 to $10,000 you can start watching for a good used baby grand.

My thoughts exactly. My teacher seems to think I’ll be able to find something decent in my budget though. 
There so many used pianos out there, but I live the Dallas Fort Worth metroplex , a huge spread out area , so it’s hard  to set up appointments and drive all over the area to check used pianos. No hurry though, I’m quite happy with my Kawia ES 110, and Korg Havian .  I do have access to acoustics at the community college I’m taking my piano lessons at, but it’s so much more practical to practice at home…. But anyways, I’m not in a hurry to buy a piano, I figure it will take awhile …. 
 

 

So far I’m considering the following;

 

Baldwin Acrosonic from the 50’s  $400

Baldwin Hamilton 1989 $900

Kimball La Petite  from the 90’s  $1000

Palatino   ( console ) 2013 $500

 

I’ve just seen pictures, they look very clean. I’ll be trying set up appoints to play them. Just wondering if anybody here has  played on any of those. 
 

 

 

[NewImprov]

This is my thoroughly unscientific and subjective response. I took classical piano lessons all through grade school-high school, we had a nice Baldwin console at my parents house. Then, in college, I took 2 years of jazz piano lessons from a great teacher, and primarily practiced at the school, there were a couple of practice rooms that had grands in them, and it was a contest among the students to see who got access to them.

 

After college (1992), I didn't have regular access to an acoustic piano, and when I practiced, it was on electric keys. I got my Rhodes in 1998, and that became my primary practice instrument. I was mainly working and gigging, my "practice" consisted of making sure I could play well enough to deliver what I needed for whatever gig I had next, and barely any more.

 

When my partner and I started our studio in 2018, he bought an 1880's vintage Knabe 7' grand from a church, and we have done a bunch of restoration on it. It's nowhere near perfect yet, but very playable. It's become my primary practice instrument, in fact, during the pandemic, I started a practice routine that had me revisiting a lot of the classical, mostly Bach, I played in school, and some of the jazz exercises and pieces I worked on in college. Just recently, I've noticed that my keyboard technique, after literally decades of feeling like I was at best on a plateau, and at worst declining, has started feeling like I am actually improving, my brain to finger connection is improving, my articulation is cleaner, and it feels like I'm actually playing more musically, on whatever keyboard I'm playing. I primarily gig with the Rhodes and electronic keyboards, I rather obsessively avoid playing emulative acoustic piano parts, and I'm lucky enough to work with bands who accept my OCD on this. But I really feel like going back and practicing seriously on an acoustic has improved my technique on every keyboard.