Yet another powered stage speaker thread

[drand48a]

I need to get a pair of stage speakers.  The QSC K8.2 look ideal.  The small size is great.  They're loud enough -- sadly I think I need at least 123dB SPL, for those too-loud stages.  But I'm cheap, so I'm considering less expensive alternatives, and I'd like to hear what people think about these in comparison, or any others I've missed.

 

EV ZXA1

JBL EON 710

QSC K8, used on ebay ...

 

I never had golden ears and now that I'm old I hear even worse than I ever did.  (I can still hear 8K clearly enough but it drops off pretty fast around that point.)  But I'm still pickier than the audience or bandmates who all seem to be tone-deaf for anything other than their own instruments. 😉

 

I don't need thumping bass.  I don't kick pedals, and I don't want to compete with the bass player.  When using 12" wedges I used to roll off the bottom a bit end so low piano wouldn't interfere.  No subwoofer required!  But I do need the low mids to be powerful, and of course, clear flat response up to the top is important.

 

Finally, these are both my mains and monitors for most (small venue) gigs.  I'll send a line to FOH too when appropriate.

 

If I win the lottery, I'll get RCF TT08's.

[Tusker]

A single K8 can get high SPL with an unfortunate loss of fidelity in the highs. In order to help you, could I please ask you why you feel you need 123 dB SPL? 

 

There have been a lot of threads in this forum on each of the speakers you mention and you might have picked up this theme from some of the threads, but ...

 

The K8 doesn't like being pushed. It starts sounding ... plastic? Hopefully for not much more, a used K10 or K12 will help you be heard much better than a K8. The larger drivers are efficient and they are more directional, which helps you land the sound in the audience.

 

Also do you need the second speaker for stereo reasons or for volume?

[Coker]

If you need 123 dB, wouldn’t 2 K8.2s give you almost twice that?

[drand48a]

I want 123 dB per speaker.  Two K8.2's at 128 provide at least 131 dB (and up to 134 for mono sounds.)  Plenty loud enough.  A previous rig had about 123 per speaker and was enough; if it got too loud on stage for that I generally left the stage.  (Note: I don't recall actual measured SPL levels.  Just that my system with these specs was enough and I don't want to go lower.)

 

Quote

A single K8 can get high SPL with an unfortunate loss of fidelity in the highs.

 

I hope you're talking about the original K8's.

 

Quote

for stereo reasons or for volume?

 

Mostly, stereo, but both; also dispersion/location.

[timwat]

We have a lot of recurring discussion about amplification choices, options, strategies. I won't belabor those points again, for the sake of this thread I'll just mention one piece of practical advice:

 

If at all possible, don't spend money before actually hearing the options side by side.

 

I realize that may not be possible because of where you live / what stores are near. I realize the most popular options rise to the top of discussion on this forum. I realize a lot of online retailers have very generous and accommodating return policies.

 

Published specs can be misleading (that's about as Captain Obvious as saying some things on the interwebz aren't accurate). But if you're using your intended solution for audience sound, the quality matters and you'll want to trust your own ears.

 

Back when I made my powered PA purchase, I dragged a keyboard to the brick and mortar and A/B'd all the popular options they had at that time. I ended up not purchasing what I thought was the wise choice, and went with the Yamaha DXR8s instead. To my ears they were warmer, more natural, had wider dispersion, and didn't get ugly when pushed the way the other options did. Of course that was several years ago, and a lot of the options have been updated.

 

Hope that helps some, and good luck on your search.

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

A dark-horse suggestion is the Harbinger brand that Guitar Center owns now. I bought an 8" there for cocktail hour-type gigs, and am going to pick up a second one just to sort of say I did; you can run them inline as a stereo monitor.

 

The highs are wimpy and they are not the toughest kids on the block. But for easy carry-in-carry-out gigs, I've gotten well more than my money's worth out of it.

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, drand48a said:

I need to get a pair of stage speakers.  The QSC K8.2 look ideal.  The small size is great.  They're loud enough -- sadly I think I need at least 123dB SPL, for those too-loud stages.  But I'm cheap, so I'm considering less expensive alternatives, and I'd like to hear what people think about these in comparison, or any others I've missed.

 

EV ZXA1

JBL EON 710

QSC K8, used on ebay ...

Years ago, I was able to A/B the ZXa1 and original K8, and chose to buy the EV because I thought it sounded better, even though it didn't go as loud. I think the K8.2 sounds better than either, but the EV still sounds great, and these years later, I really appreciate their lighter weight. I've never heard the JBL.

 

But if you want cheap, the Alto TS308 is quite good. Not as good as the EV to my ears, but not lagging too far behind.

 

For any of these, you'll probably need a small mixer to get the desired output level out of them.

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, drand48a said:

I never had golden ears and now that I'm old I hear even worse than I ever did.  (I can still hear 8K clearly enough but it drops off pretty fast around that point.)

 

2 hours ago, drand48a said:

I think I need at least 123dB SPL, for those too-loud stages.

 

I've had two original K8s since they were introduced (over 13 years ago) and the condition of my hearing (moderate-to-severe tinnitus with probably some hyperacusis) means I don't do a gig that requires them getting anywhere near the volume they're capable of. They certainly get loud, and though I assume the .2s get even louder, I have to wonder what kind of difference does it make putting a continuous 500 watts (K8) or 1800 watts (K8.2) into a single 8" speaker? I think the voice coil would melt before either amp reached their rated power.

 

Good luck in your search. If it were me, I'd seriously consider a different playing situation. "Needing at least 123db SPL" scares me!

[Tusker]

1 hour ago, drand48a said:

 

 

I hope you're talking about the original K8's.

Yes. AFAIK, the K8.2s ameliorated this problem. The 8.2s sound a sizable step from the K8s to me. Like Reeze, I have a pair of K8s. They are very portable and sound quite good at lower volumes than what you are needing. You clearly know what you are doing. I would move forward with auditions as Tim suggested. Don’t forget the earplugs and good luck!

[bill bosco]

2 hours ago, drand48a said:

I need to get a pair of stage speakers.  The QSC K8.2 look ideal.  The small size is great.  They're loud enough -- sadly I think I need at least 123dB SPL, for those too-loud stages.  But I'm cheap, so I'm considering less expensive alternatives, and I'd like to hear what people think about these in comparison, or any others I've missed.

 

EV ZXA1

JBL EON 710

QSC K8, used on ebay ...

 

I never had golden ears and now that I'm old I hear even worse than I ever did.  (I can still hear 8K clearly enough but it drops off pretty fast around that point.)  But I'm still pickier than the audience or bandmates who all seem to be tone-deaf for anything other than their own instruments. 😉

 

I don't need thumping bass.  I don't kick pedals, and I don't want to compete with the bass player.  When using 12" wedges I used to roll off the bottom a bit end so low piano wouldn't interfere.  No subwoofer required!  But I do need the low mids to be powerful, and of course, clear flat response up to the top is important.

 

Finally, these are both my mains and monitors for most (small venue) gigs.  I'll send a line to FOH too when appropriate.

 

If I win the lottery, I'll get RCF TT08's.

123 dbs per speaker ? i think if you push that much to hear your instrument , you will hurt yourself 

[Al Coda]

1 hour ago, bill bosco said:

123 dbs per speaker ? i think if you push that much to hear your instrument , you will hurt yourself

 

There´s a differentiation between pain threshold and threshold of noise pain.

 

While the pain threshold is between 120 and 140dB, the latter is 137dB, that´s what wikipedia explains.

This is because of the individual human sensitivity to noise.

Have in mind, typical SPL specs are @1W / 1 meter (3 feet) distance.

 

Real world scenario is different and depends on true distance to the speaker.

Using in-ear is different too.

 

My understanding is, the more SPL you can get from a speaker, less amp power is needed to get your desired volume/ loudness, leaving more dynamic headroom.

So, it´s matter of the user damage his hearing, regardless of power amp and speaker´s specs.

 

 

A.C.

 

[Delaware Dave]

Rather than blast your ears with two speakers at 123 dB (I'm assuming to hear yourself due to a loud band scenario) why wouldn't you consider IEM's driven from your mixer?  IEM'S will do two things: 1) the IEM will act as earplugs shielding the other noise on the stage (to an extend of course);  2) with the other noise 'reduced' your IEM's then dont need to be that loud, thus saving your hearing.

 

I left playing with guys i've playing with for 20 years because of loud stage volume.  Unfortunately from a hearing perspective i left too late, the high pitch squeal i live with daily will only get worse, not better ever.

[stoken6]

12 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

it's my first reaction to turn up the volume on any speaker(s) when there's a lack of clarity hearing yourself

 

Relieved that I'm not the only one. I've always struggled in loud contexts, not with my hearing, but with perception - the "audio processing" that my brain does to pick out individual elements from a mix/background noise. That's why IEMs have been such a benefit when the volume creeps up.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[drand48a]

17 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

But if you want cheap, the Alto TS308 is quite good. Not as good as the EV to my ears, but not lagging too far behind.

 

I think you mean TS408.  They also have a TX308 which isn't nearly loud enough.

 

The TS408 looks great based on specs, but at that price I'd expect it to sound like a Behringer.  If it's even half-decent, that's incredible at such a low price!

 

Frankly, at that price I'm tempted to just go for it; unless it sucks (e.g. like the Behringer I had a band get once) it'll do great for now and if replaced by better ones someday they'd still have plenty of useful less-demanding applications.  I'd really like to hear what others have to say about these speakers.

 

Someone needs to hone their math skills, though:
 

Quote

 

LF Driver Power Amp: 650W

HF Driver Power Amp: 350W

Total Power: 2000W

 

 

[Al Coda]

28 minutes ago, drand48a said:

I think you mean TS408.  They also have a TX308 which isn't nearly loud enough.

 

The TS408 looks great based on specs,

 

there were/ still are TS308 available and TS 408 are the successors.

TS 408 offer bluetooth.

When you don´t need bluetooth, TS 308 are fine !

 

TX 308 offer less power than TS 308.

 

IMO, TS 308 and 310 sound better for keys than 312.

I´d prefer 310 though.

 

Alto is good for live,- soundwise they are on par w/ the cheaper EVs.

They are bang for the buck.

 

 

A.C.

[AnotherScott]

9 minutes ago, drand48a said:

 

I think you mean TS408.  They also have a TX308 which isn't nearly loud enough.

 

The TS408 looks great based on specs, but at that price I'd expect it to sound like a Behringer.  If it's even half-decent, that's incredible at such a low price!

 

I did mean TS308, but it looks like that is indeed being replaced by the TS408 which I believe is the same piece with bluetooth connectivity added. It does sound better than Behringer B208D.

[D. Gauss]

Yamaha DBR10's do 129db.  I have a pair for FOH and keys.  light, loud, cheap.

[drand48a]

OK, thanks.  I can't find any hits for "TS308", only "TX308", which aren't loud enough at 116 dB, but amazingly cheap at $140.

 

On Amazon, there are two versions of the TX408, the older without BT @$374, and the current with BT @$298.

 

The Behringer I hated was a B212A, and from what I hear, they got louder but not much better.  They sounded truly awful.

[drand48a]

12 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

Yamaha DBR10's do 129db.  I have a pair for FOH and keys.  light, loud, cheap.

 

Thanks!  I wasn't aware of these, but a definite contender.  Must be efficient drivers (or loose specs) to get that SPL from 700W.  Yamaha usually isn't too sloppy with specs, at least they weren't back in the old days.  There were comments about reliability with the Altos, which I wouldn't worry about much from Yamaha.

[DJkeys]

19 hours ago, MaskOfInsects said:

A dark-horse suggestion is the Harbinger brand that Guitar Center owns now. I bought an 8" there for cocktail hour-type gigs, and am going to pick up a second one just to sort of say I did; you can run them inline as a stereo monitor.

 

The highs are wimpy and they are not the toughest kids on the block. But for easy carry-in-carry-out gigs, I've gotten well more than my money's worth out of it.

This is a good suggestion, I bought one of these to leave at practice.  Got it for $149 at GC-

 

-dj

[D. Gauss]

3 minutes ago, DJKeys said:

This is a good suggestion, I bought one of these to leave at practice.  Got it for $149 at GC-

 

-dj

 

Max SPL: 118dB   they're  100-150 watts rms  i believe.

[HSS]

I have a Yamaha DBR10 and a couple of Alto TS310's. IMO they're both good deals for the money and can get pretty loud, both with stated max SPL's of 129 dB.  IMO either works well for keys with a few limitations.   

 

The Alto TS310 has a little more lower end and IMO cuts through a loud band mix a little better than the Yamaha DBR10 although it can become a bit harsh unless you tame it a bit with external EQ.   The Yamaha DBR10, IMO, sounds a little smoother out of the box for keys.  The Yamaha DBR10 has a line/mic gain switch that can generate a significant volume boost but it only operates on channel one.  The Alto TS310 doesn't have a line / mic gain switch with both of its channels being the same.  FWIW I think the new Alto TS410 does have line / mic gain switches in addition to Bluetooth connectivity as previously mentioned.  

 

In terms of connectivity, both the Alto TS310 and Yamaha DBR10 have two input channels with xlr / 1/4" comb jacks, with the Yamaha having the added option of stereo RCA combo jacks on channel 2.  Another minor difference is that the Alto TS310 has a ground lift switch while the Yamaha DBR10 doesn't.  

 

In terms of portability, both the Alto TS310 and Yamaha DBR10 are compact with the Yamaha weighing about 3 lbs less (~23 vs. ~26 lbs).  The Alto TS310 is, however, IMO a little easier to carry however with handles on both sides while the Yamaha DBR10 only has only one handle on the top. 

 

Again, for the money, IMO both speakers are good deals for the money and could work well for keys. In either case, as with all powered speakers, you'll probably want to get a small mixer for additional connectivity, EQ, and gain.  

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, drand48a said:

OK, thanks.  I can't find any hits for "TS308", only "TX308", which aren't loud enough at 116 dB, but amazingly cheap at $140.

 

On Amazon, there are two versions of the TX408, the older without BT @$374, and the current with BT @$298.

 

The Behringer I hated was a B212A, and from what I hear, they got louder but not much better.  They sounded truly awful.

TS308 is at https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07CJG88D7 but it is over-priced... I guess some third party seller hoping to get what they can for a discontinued model that should actually be selling for less than the new model! 

 

To me, the B212A sounded the same as the B208D I mentioned, except louder and with more bass. I still like the B208D for what it is... it's very small, we use them for vocal monitors, and even most keys other than acoustic piano sounds okay, if it's not a situation where you need lots of bass or tons of volume. TS308 sounds a lot better, though.

[drand48a]

53 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

TS308 is at https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07CJG88D7 but it is over-priced... I guess some third party seller hoping to get what they can for a discontinued model that should actually be selling for less than the new model!

Aha, that's the "older model" I mentioned above (corresponding to the "older model" button on the Amazon page.)  I didn't notice the model number change.  Anyway, that clears that up.

 

The Behringer worked OK as a vocal monitor.  But I remember playing a CD through it.  You're right that it'd be OK for some keyboard sounds, but piano is crucial for me.

[drand48a]

I don't want to add a mixer.  Adding gain with a mixer is just pushing the speaker into higher distortion, unless the source is weak to begin with, but in my case it's +4dBu.  If that isn't loud enough, adding more gain is not the answer.

 

I'd love to get a chance to test drive the gear, but the nearest GC is an hour away and is the smallest GC I've ever seen with very little inventory.  The next out is 2 1/2 hrs away and there are several options including Sam Ash.  I realize that's what I *should* do but it's inconvenient.  (Then again, I drove 10 hrs to try a piano ... fortunately I had an almost-sold house halfway between and some stuff to do there so it was only really a 5 hr cost.  And I did buy the piano!)

[CEB]

We played at these volume levels 40+ years ago.  The stage amplification solution for keyboardist were Crown power amps and a pair of large 3 way passive cabinets and a rack mounted mixer.  We all basically carried our own PA.

[CEB]

9 minutes ago, drand48a said:

I don't want to add a mixer.  Adding gain with a mixer is just pushing the speaker into higher distortion, unless the source is weak to begin with, but in my case it's +4dBu.  If that isn't loud enough, adding more gain is not the answer.

 

.......

 

This is not true.  Depends entirely on the Speaker design and specs.  You try to run the EV ZXA1s without the initial gain stage from something like a mixer you will not reach output specs.  You will not get squat out of the speaker.

[Tusker]

3 hours ago, CEB said:

 

You try to run the EV ZXA1s without the initial gain stage from something like a mixer you will not reach output specs.  You will not get squat out of the speaker.

+1000

[Tusker]

A workaround I have used when particularly lazy (as with high volume practices for which I would take ear plugs) with the K series was to run into the microphone impedance. Not recommended for several reasons and I try not to do it. Some sort of gain stage is the better way to go. 
 

Generally you will find that today’s powered speakers want a hotter signal than today’s keyboards will provide.

[Reezekeys]

2 minutes ago, Tusker said:

You try to run the EV ZXA1s without the initial gain stage from something like a mixer you will not reach output specs.  You will not get squat out of the speaker.

 

You can't switch it to mic level input and back off on the gain, like on my K8s? The Ks have a mic/line switch that's really just a pad. Take the pad out and you can certainly drive the speaker to it's full power from the lowest of -10 line levels, hell, you can overload it too if you want (I assume the DSP kicks in to limit the speakers' excursion). When I did eardrum-punishing wedding gigs I connected my laptop's headphone output directly to the Ks but I could have connected any hardware keyboard's outputs directly and gotten the maximum SPLs from the speakers.