Gigging organ/piano. If you could do it all over again...

[Neek]

Hey all I'm new to the forum.  I'm an acoustic piano player (love my Yamaha C3 Grand at home), now 50 and about 20 years removed from any kind of live playing.  A friend wants me to join his band for local rock/blues/country bar-type gigs for 85% organ, 10% piano and a few EV songs.  I just got my hands on a perfect second-hand SK1 as the beginning of my rig for this new journey.  The idea of a vintage tube Leslie definitely appeals to me (analog is king), but for going to gigs, it would probably be too much.  A LOT has changed in 20 years and I'm getting a bit overwhelmed by the hardware/software options like a Studio 12, or 2101 Mk3 vs a Neo Vent 2 into some kind of quality stationary amp, vs just the onboard Leslie through a Spacestation v.3, the possibilities are a little paralyzing to analyze coupled with the fact that near me, there is nearly zero chance of getting my hands on any of the options to try them out.

 

So if you were to do it all again and start with just an SK1, and build a rig for home/practice and small bar gigs, knowing what you know now, how would you approach it?  These forums are amazing and if there are any reference level threads I should be checking out please feel free to link them.  Thanks in advance for any advice you have.  Also while I wouldn't say money is NO object, I wouldn't make a strict budget a limiting factor in options to consider.

[CEB]

I guess I would do what I did.  But you should Probably do something different.

 

• Stopped using stage Leslies in 2013, Sound production guy running the front desk prefers the Vent I have in my rack.
• Stopped using all stage amplification.  Monitor through IEMs.
• Patch management is handled by the Kronos 2 - 88
• Current organ is a SKx,  I feed the racked Vent out the 11 pin leslie socket.
• I  carry a synth action board depending on the gig.

[Outkaster]

I'd still play piano. Organ is secondary. The SK1 is a little old now but still useable. Organ is a different animal and usually if you want to play it professionally you have to do what comes along with the lifestyle.  You'd have to get a console that is road ready, get a decent Leslie , ramps, a trailer and a good vehicle to tow it.  I tell people all the time unless you play organ 90% of the time you don't need to carry a real rig.  That said it all of this depends on what you want to do.  It depends on  your budget, your time and what you can put it into it.  All the music you play  can dictate what rig you will have. People don't put thought into that aspect either and get marginal results. 

 

You need to spend time with some of the gear also to figure out what's best for you.  Doing a lot of research would help you also.

[Neek]

5 minutes ago, Outkaster said:

I'd still play piano. Organ is secondary. The SK1 is a little old now but still useable. Organ is a different animal and usually if you want to play it professionally you have to do what comes along with the lifestyle.  You'd have to get a console that is road ready, get a decent Leslie , ramps, a trailer and a good vehicle to tow it.  I tell people all the time unless you play organ 90% of the time you don't need to carry a real rig.  That said it all of this depends on what you want to do.  It depends on  your budget, your time and what you can put it into it.  All the music you play  can dictate what rig you will have. People don't put thought into that aspect either and get marginal results. 

 

You need to spend time with some of the gear also to figure out what's best for you.  Doing a lot of research would help you also.

Thank you, but this is far more of a fun (but serious) hobby than a professional endeavor.  I've always wanted to really play organ also.  I'm just hunting the most efficient way to get as close as can to the feel and sound without going full pro route.  There's just a lot of ways to get there and I'm hoping to pick the minds of those that already have.

[drawback]

Having a Leslie as your only amplification is great if you're just running organ through it, but what about the times when you need to use it for pianos? If you could dedicate organ only through the Leslie and then run separate ouput to other amplification (powered speaker(s), FOH) obviously that would work, although then there's the schlep and stage room to consider. So for smaller, simpler setups I'd probably just go with either a stereo amp or a pair of powered speakers. I had a Spacestation for years but found it too hit 'n'miss for acoustic pianos, plus I always used a bass amp down below to handle the lows. So nowadays I'd definitely go with Motion Sound. 

[TommyRude]

1 hour ago, Neek said:

So if you were to do it all again and start with just an SK1, and build a rig for home/practice and small bar gigs, knowing what you know now, how would you approach it? 

Welcome to the forum and congrats on getting back into playing.

 

In order to help you better, need more precision in your ques.  What exactly do you want help with?  Amplification?  Software?  Effects/ pedals?  Additional keyboards? Technique?

[CEB]

Yes.  Gear is overrated, The biggest determiners will be whether the band will be hiring good sound production or doing it themselves and what will sound reinforcement will consist of.

[Neek]

Mostly amps/modeling/software options. Most musicians I know are constantly changing bits and pieces of their rig until they settle on what they feel works best for them, then the new shiny thing comes out and the cycle repeats lol. Since I’m 20 years removed I’m wondering where anyone that has gone down a similar road has settled. This is a fun side thing for me rather than a career. 
 

if consensus seems to be that one path gets me 95% there with huge pluses in usability/portability/cost that would be great to know. 

[Neek]

7 minutes ago, CEB said:

Yes.  Gear is overrated, The biggest determiners will be whether the band will be hiring good sound production or doing it themselves and what will sound reinforcement will consist of.

Yes overrated but also necessary. Since I’m really starting from scratch I have a bit of freedom to not be anchored to equipment I’ve invested significantly into. 

[Al Quinn]

I'd buy either a Motion Sound KP-610S or KP-612S amp. Ultimately, weight would be the deciding factor. The younger me would get the 612. The current me (who's 64) has the 610 and loves it.

 

Only you can decide if you'll be using a two board or one board rig. Action is usually the determining factor. You could start with just the SK1. Whether or not the action and piano sounds cut it is up to you as that's a subjective call. It doesn't work for me so if I were committed to keeping the SK1 I would need to get a second keyboard for piano which is a large topic unto itself and covered pretty thoroughly in other threads on this forum.

 

I practice at home on my Yamaha acoustic C3 and have a strong preference for digital pianos that I can switch seamlessly to and from. If it's your intention to continue practicing at home on your C3 you might want to take this into consideration if you decide to buy a weighted keyboard for piano. 

[AnotherScott]

Picking up from what clawback said, the Studio 12 will not be at all suitable for piano. The 2101 and the Spacestations are at least capable of handling both rotary-effected and non-rotary effected sounds, and if your piano use is secondary, maybe they would sound "good enough" in that role. (Note that I have not heard the 2101 myself.) For the Spacestation, you'd also want the Neo Vent for that extra degree of realism. For both the 2101 and smaller Spacestation, you may want to add something underneath for more bottom.

 

Another variable is whether the audience will be hearing you from your amp, or if you will be put into a FOH PA system. If the latter, the 2101 becomes more complicated because it would have to be miked up for the rotary effect.

 

Using the Neo Vent into a Motion Sound KP-408S (or better) could be another way to go. It will probably give you better piano sound than anything above, and it could eliminate the consideration of having to add something to the 2101 or smaller SpaceStation to get more bottom.

[Delaware Dave]

3 hours ago, Neek said:

A friend wants me to join his band for local rock/blues/country bar-type gigs for 85% organ, 10% piano and a few EV songs. 

 

The idea of a vintage tube Leslie definitely appeals to me (analog is king), but for going to gigs, it would probably be too much. 

 

A LOT has changed in 20 years and I'm getting a bit overwhelmed by the hardware/software options like a Studio 12, or 2101 Mk3 vs a Neo Vent 2 into some kind of quality stationary amp, vs just the onboard Leslie through a Spacestation v.3

 

So if you were to do it all again and start with just an SK1 ..

So if you were to do it all again and start with just an SK1 ..  I wouldn't start with an SK1 as Vase III technology is twenty years old. I would start with an SKPro; it's organ and leslie are immensely better and the acoustic piano is slightly better than the SK1.

 

The idea of a vintage tube Leslie definitely appeals to me (analog is king), but for going to gigs, it would probably be too much.   Correct, analog leslies are great but good leslie sims will get you where you need to go and much less of a hassle to transport and setup.  You're 20 years removed from playing and you sound like you want to jump in full monty; that band can breakup tonight.  Take your time and grow into your gig rig.  If a year from now things are really moving you can re-evaluate; but an SKPro will get you to where you need to go after 20 years being away from the scene.

 

A LOT has changed in 20 years and I'm getting a bit overwhelmed by the hardware/software options like a Studio 12, or 2101 Mk3 vs a Neo Vent 2 into some kind of quality stationary amp, vs just the onboard Leslie through a Spacestation v.3  If you go down the leslie route a 2101 would be a nice choice and you could run the bottom end through a powered monitor of some kind that can do 2 things: 1) bolster the bottom end of the 2101 by running it through the powered monitor which has a significantly better bass speaker than the 2101's 4" bass drivers.  2) use the powered monitor to cover your piano and other instruments (the other 15% you mentioned).  This way you'd have a real horn spinning and a decent low rotor sim through the powered monitor.  The 2101 is fairly expensive (as is a Studio 12), still think the SKPro's internal leslie sim or an external leslie sim such as a Vent is easier and less expensive.  I still think the SKPro's leslie sim will get you there for the time being.

 

Take your time, ensure the band stays viable and look to expand in the future after you have re-evaluated the band a year from now.  Also, you're 50; when I was 50 I was using a Hammond L100P and a Motion Sound leslie; I still have that road kit, it's sitting in my basement and I use it when we practice.  In the past 10 years I've used the L100P once outside my basement and the MS leslie about 6 times, the last time in September for a large gig.  My back and knees were already sore and carrying that 'lightweight' leslie really wrenched my back (again).  Nice to have but probably done carrying that equipment around to any other gigs unless someone transports it for me and that is highly unlikely.  Since I appear to be the best conditioned person in the band I would doubt that equipment will ever see the light of day again.  My personal rig is the best sounding rig I've ever owned SINCE using old analog equipment and presently there isn't a piece of equipment that individually weighs more than 37 pounds.  You'll understand what I'm talking about in the next 5 years.

 

[Neek]

1 hour ago, Delaware Dave said:

So if you were to do it all again and start with just an SK1 ..  I wouldn't start with an SK1 as Vase III technology is twenty years old. I would start with an SKPro; it's organ and leslie are immensely better and the acoustic piano is slightly better than the SK1.

 

The idea of a vintage tube Leslie definitely appeals to me (analog is king), but for going to gigs, it would probably be too much.   Correct, analog leslies are great but good leslie sims will get you where you need to go and much less of a hassle to transport and setup.  You're 20 years removed from playing and you sound like you want to jump in full monty; that band can breakup tonight.  Take your time and grow into your gig rig.  If a year from now things are really moving you can re-evaluate; but an SKPro will get you to where you need to go after 20 years being away from the scene.

 

A LOT has changed in 20 years and I'm getting a bit overwhelmed by the hardware/software options like a Studio 12, or 2101 Mk3 vs a Neo Vent 2 into some kind of quality stationary amp, vs just the onboard Leslie through a Spacestation v.3  If you go down the leslie route a 2101 would be a nice choice and you could run the bottom end through a powered monitor of some kind that can do 2 things: 1) bolster the bottom end of the 2101 by running it through the powered monitor which has a significantly better bass speaker than the 2101's 4" bass drivers.  2) use the powered monitor to cover your piano and other instruments (the other 15% you mentioned).  This way you'd have a real horn spinning and a decent low rotor sim through the powered monitor.  The 2101 is fairly expensive (as is a Studio 12), still think the SKPro's internal leslie sim or an external leslie sim such as a Vent is easier and less expensive.  I still think the SKPro's leslie sim will get you there for the time being.

 

Take your time, ensure the band stays viable and look to expand in the future after you have re-evaluated the band a year from now.  Also, you're 50; when I was 50 I was using a Hammond L100P and a Motion Sound leslie; I still have that road kit, it's sitting in my basement and I use it when we practice.  In the past 10 years I've used the L100P once outside my basement and the MS leslie about 6 times, the last time in September for a large gig.  My back and knees were already sore and carrying that 'lightweight' leslie really wrenched my back (again).  Nice to have but probably done carrying that equipment around to any other gigs unless someone transports it for me and that is highly unlikely.  Since I appear to be the best conditioned person in the band I would doubt that equipment will ever see the light of day again.  My personal rig is the best sounding rig I've ever owned SINCE using old analog equipment and presently there isn't a piece of equipment that individually weighs more than 37 pounds.  You'll understand what I'm talking about in the next 5 years.

 

Thank you so much for the input.  Funny the decision to grab the SK1 was two-fold.  I found it on FB marketplace within a drive, and it was cheap enough that I figured it made sense to start with it and if I grew out of it to go with the SK-Pro and lose little to nothing on it.

[zxcvbnm098]

What did you use back in the day when you were playing live? That might inform a direction now.

And how important is playing a weighted action, piano feeling keyboard for non-organ material? 

 

 

[Neek]

8 minutes ago, zxcvbnm098 said:

What did you use back in the day when you were playing live? That might inform a direction now.

And how important is playing a weighted action, piano feeling keyboard for non-organ material? 

 

 

Mostly piano and a STUDIO (ouch) Rhodes.  Eventually I think a proper full 88, hammer-weighted piano might be in the cards, but so far the SK1 with a proper damper pedal is sufficient.  I forgot to mention that it is a 73 key SK1 so I don't feel that cramped up doing piano on it.

[David R]

Since you mention they would be bar-type gigs, I imagine you need to take up the least amount of space possible. SK1 + Vent + speaker of your choice would be a good place to start.
 

I’ve never tried the Motion Sound stuff, 90% of the time I send out to FOH rely on their monitors which are often QSCs.

[stoken6]

I say keep it simple. You don't need a extravagant drool-worthy rig on day 1. As a piano player you will find the SK1 more than capable of covering the gig. I would stick with the on-board leslie sim, and a half-decent powered speaker. (Alto TS or better). Once you outgrow that, add a Ventilator and/or a better speaker/amp - such as Al Quinn's Motion Sound. Hauling real rotary speakers gets real old real fast. You can then add a controller to be your lower manual, etc. etc. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[cphollis]

Hmmm, getting back into it after 20 years, 85% organ and so on ... and if I was doing it all over again?

 

If I was technically oriented, I'd consider doing most everything on an iPad.  You can't beat the B-3X software, not to mention a million other instruments and effects.  I would think your SK makes a dandy controller for it.   But it's a geeky ride.

 

If instead you want a hardware instrument, Nord sells a lot of Electros for this very mission, which is what I use.  You'd probably find a lot more to like with a recent Electro, and could potentially use the SK as a second manual. But be warned: Electros are just the gateway drug for the Stage.  You said budget wasn't a limiting factor? 

 

As CEB and other noticed, exactly how you and others hear you will become more important than choice of instrument.  Amplification matters.  A pair of self-powered 8" speakers augmented by a small sub is one way to approach this if you need to be heard on stage.  Lots of threads here on that topic.  Stereo is nice for organ leslie effects, not to mention EP effects.

 

I own outboard effects, I don't use any of them live, preferring either inboard effects or something via the mixer.  Yes, a Vent II technically sounds "better" than the built-in Nord sim, but not worth it for live gigging as you can't control it from a preset.  Simple is good.

 

If your setlist is straightforward, you won't need to do a lot of programming.  However, if you end up bouncing around multiple bands and multiple setlists a good master keyboard is in order to keep everything straight.  You may end up with an organ-weighted board on top, and something weighted for AP and EP parts below.

 

I also would make sure I get something I could grow into over time, e.g. after I outgrow this, what would be the next steps?  This gives you a reasonable incentive to stay in a manufacturer's family (e.g. Yamaha, Roland, etc.) as there will usually be better interoperability as you add pieces.  Buying and selling multiple boards is not only expensive, it's frustrating

[Lou_NC]

Bar gigs, eh?  😁

 

If you LOVE organ/Leslie sound, I would invest in a Leslie (or a Vent and stereo amp setup of your choice - SSv3, Motion Sound, or even a good set of stereo system speakers) for HOME use only.  For the bar gigs themselves, I would play in mono using the SK's Leslie sim.  That would cover your organ and piano sounds through a single stationary speaker (minimal schlep factor).  Honestly, do you think a bar patron is going to care if the Leslie sim is in stereo or not?  

 

If you need to provide your own amp for the gigs (vs. house PA and IEM's) I'd buy a decent powered PA speaker, size based on the sizes of the venues you plan to play in.

 

Lou

 

[zxcvbnm098]

I'm a big fan of the new Motion Sound amps as I have the 610 like Al's. There is an argument to be made to get one as you will likely need a good sounding amp/powered speaker no mater what keyboards you use moving forward. I think the world of keyboard amplification has changed dramatically since you last played out.

 

I also see stoken6's point about getting a decent yet less expensive powered speaker instead to keep up front costs down. 

 

Since you have the Hammond already I would focus on amplification to prepare for gigging and not worrying so much about keyboard upgrades? Having a consistent playback amp/PA speaker will help acclimate to the keyboard in rehearsals and gigs. Learn the Hammond, and maybe add an iPad and use one of the myriad of great iOS apps with it to supplement the Hammond if need be.  Then get a few gigs under your belt and re-assess you needs; it's really hard to decide needs before you have gigs....to me at least. 

[JimboKeys]

Having gone, over the past 50 years (!!!), from a Hammond L100 with 122 Leslie, to various modules through a Motion Sound rotary speaker, to Roland or Yamaha workstation organs through a GSi Burn (same idea as Neo Instruments Ventilator), to what i use now -- a laptop running the B-3X software, i'd have to say that this is the best-sounding organ i've ever used.  It's ironic the number of folks on this board who use a Nord Electro or equivalent strictly as a controller for B-3X, with the internal sounds being only for emergency backup. And now that i think about it, it's a lot simpler for me to set up than dealing with miking and mixing in a rotating speaker (and more consistent regardless of amplification).

 

(And of course once you start down that route, you'll start discovering pianos and EP's that are a cut above what the SK1 has to offer.)

 

-- Jimbo

[niacin]

I'd sell the SK1 and buy an SKpro rather than getting a Ventilator to use with the SK1, and you need to be a distance away from a Spacestation to appreciate it's sound and you may not get that on a bar stage.  BUT at this stage I wouldn't buy anything, just take your SK1 and a stand, run it through the band PA and see what you want to improve, you might want a real Leslie, you might want a 2 manual organ, you might want better pianos (try Yamaha's YC61 or 76), or better electric pianos (e.g. Crumar Mojo 61), play a few gigs and see.  Me, for bar gigs, I'd sell the SK1 and buy an SKpro and run it through the band.  ymmv.

[cphollis]

That would be a +1 for any clonewheel through the SSv3.  Its stereo lo-fi approach is perfect for swirling, gritty organ that fills a room.  As long as it's a stereo effect, it sounds great.  Ditto for smoky, burbling EPs.  APs can be a disaster, but synth sounds great.

 

TR:DL, if you don't care about pristine AP sounds, the SSv3 is my go-to for an organ-centric bar gig.

[yannis D]

In your shoes I would stick to what I have (and what you have is more than average for a Hammond-centric gig)  and add things only after the first 3-4 gigs. By then you will eventually know 1) your real needs 2) how the XK respond to them and 3) the acoustics of your venues. 

I would not start to spend money before this point 

[Stokely]

I've got the best sound I've ever had using a lowly Modx with B-3X running from the ipad.  Better than my Electro 6, Roland vr700, pc361, Motif, Proteus and JX-10 (in diminishing order of organ quality going WAY back!)  I've never gigged the real thing.

That said the ergonomics aren't ideal on the Modx.  The light shallow keys work surprisingly well, but I don't have drawbard controls, at least not all in a nice row; I could map various control to different drawbars but I haven't, I tend to use the drawbar presets that play from the lowest octave.

My gigs are classic rock in my current band but I do play a lot of organ. 

I'm considering a gradual move to a rig with an all rounder on the bottom with better synth sounds than the Modx and ability to get by with organ at one-keyboard gigs, possibly a Fantom.   then I might get a Crumar mojo or something with more organ "look and feel" for a top board.   This would replace a Novation Summit which I do love but I play less synth than organ due to our songs.    I like that the Mojo has rhodes and other sounds, and it isn't all that expensive.  Alternatively, perhaps a Hammond sk pro or even another Electro.  As I stated in the Nord thread, I loved my Electro and only sold it to put toward a Stage but Covid hit and by the time I was ready to buy again they jacked the price way up.

I've run direct now for 7-8 years, no amps or speakers to worry about other than the occasional powered wedge (mostly I use in-ears). 

[Neek]

This is all fantastic information. Thank you all for the time and expertise 

[Adan]

Seems like the OP is just sort of sticking his toe into the slimy waters of bar gigging.  An SK1 will be more than adequate for now.  Bar patrons don't really give a damn as long as they can recognize the song, the groove is solid, and the vocals don't hurt their ears.  But you absolutely do need to be able to hear yourself, so some kind of monitor is probably essential.  I've used my little Vox KB50 as an onstage monitor and even with a loud band it works fine if I prop it up close enough to my ears.  Mono, but that won't hold you back much.  

 

It's wonderful to be able to fill a small or medium sized room with a swirling leslie effect.  A real rotating speaker is the gold standard, but something like a Motion Sound is so close, the extra juice from a real leslie or leslie clone isn't worth the squeeze in most situations.  Definitely not with a bar band.  Organ trio would be a different kettle of fish.

[McHale]

I'd have jumped in the soft synth / keyboard controller game as soon as I could.  I've been lugging/gigging hardware synths since the 80's and that was fine but now workstations that I have depended on are no longer dependable and parts aren't available.  All of the gear I sold off because of purchasing "the one to rule them all" are gone forever and I wish I'd have kept them.  

Soft synths are available forever, as long as you have a working computer.  Computers and computer parts will always be available.  The very specific proprietary boards in my Kronos, already gone.  You can always upgrade the controller and not have to worry about recreating patches over and over again.  I've probably created the "Won't Get Fooled Again" patch 5 or 6 times for different gear I was using at those times.  MANY MANY patches have gone through the same.  The classic rock songs are timeless and recreating those patches is a necessity.  It would have been nice to have used the patches I created a decade ago and merely added additional VST's if necessary while upgrading the existing VST's when upgrades are released.  

In the long run, it will be cheaper, lighter, easier to manage, and more convenient.

[Morrissey]

2 hours ago, McHale said:

I'd have jumped in the soft synth / keyboard controller game as soon as I could.  I've been lugging/gigging hardware synths since the 80's and that was fine but now workstations that I have depended on are no longer dependable and parts aren't available.  All of the gear I sold off because of purchasing "the one to rule them all" are gone forever and I wish I'd have kept them.  

Soft synths are available forever, as long as you have a working computer.  Computers and computer parts will always be available.  The very specific proprietary boards in my Kronos, already gone.  You can always upgrade the controller and not have to worry about recreating patches over and over again.  I've probably created the "Won't Get Fooled Again" patch 5 or 6 times for different gear I was using at those times.  MANY MANY patches have gone through the same.  The classic rock songs are timeless and recreating those patches is a necessity.  It would have been nice to have used the patches I created a decade ago and merely added additional VST's if necessary while upgrading the existing VST's when upgrades are released.  

In the long run, it will be cheaper, lighter, easier to manage, and more convenient.

 

I respect this opinion but for @Neek's sake will note this a topic of debate in the keyboard community.  I'm still firmly in the hardware camp for live gigs.

[McHale]

2 hours ago, Morrissey said:

 

I respect this opinion but for @Neek's sake will note this a topic of debate in the keyboard community.  I'm still firmly in the hardware camp for live gigs.

The question was, what would *I* do differently.  After about 40 years of gigging keys and having once been firmly in the hardware camp, I think my answer is quite relevant.  I went from 5 keyboards, to 4, to 3, to 1 or 2 depending on the gig.  Now I'm 2 controllers (61 and 88) with the 61 key controller dedicated to B3 and the other for everything else.  In his position knowing everything I know now, that's what *I* would do.