DI Box and other basic questions.

[stoken6]

23 hours ago, Montunoman 2 said:

when I request that they run my keyboards in stereo, they make it seem like  that's a major annoyance, saying their DI boxes are mono

That's bizarre. Just use 2 mono DI boxes, into two channels on the desk, panned L/R.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[mate stubb]

39 minutes ago, Pa Gherkin said:

Is there any reason not to use two matching mono DIs for stereo,one L one R ?

 

No!

[El Lobo]

I don't have the amount of pro level experience that some in this thread have, but my repeat experience with a few venues and sound engineers is: they never had a problem with sending my keys in stereo to FOH. They always had a stereo DI box. Sometimes they take XLR outs from my 2 powered speakers. One guy did it that way but asked me to face the speakers in front of me and back towards me, not facing out to the audience. He didn't want to hear the sound of my speakers at all in his mix, he just wanted to take the signal from the 2 speakers and mix that in FOH. The room was very big and boomy and a sound engineer's nightmare. The sound he did was very good so clearly he knew what he was doing.

 

I've also had experiences where the "sound guy" was someone who thought he knew how to run sound, but didn't. Sound was crap. Maybe he owned a sound system but knew nothing about engineering sound or was getting experience. Moral: hire sound company with experience, the right gear, and professional reputation. In situations where you don't hire sound, see if you can talk to them before the gig. If you didn't hire the sound company and you don't know if they're any good and you show up without talking to them beforehand, yeah you probably need to bring your high quality DI box(es), in stereo if you want that.

 

(Mostly, the bands I'm in play in small venues and run their own sound from the stage and we don't put anything in the PA except vocals, sax, maybe kick drum. I know, old skool. But then, I'm old.)

[CowboyNQ]

Here’s a tip:  If you’re not providing your own DI box, say so in the tech advance and specifically request the sound engineer provides one for you.  Similarly, if you intend to run two channels for stereo, say so in the same document.  I always do this when using a third party sound company whether I’m playing a premium venue or the corner of a pub.  

Frankly, I agree with those above who say a sound engineer should have zero issue with this anyway.  But by preparing as I’ve suggested, any issues with who’s bringing what can be sorted out well in advance.

 

Why do you need a DI?  Three reasons:

 

1.  Converts line level to mic level which can make it easier for soundy to achieve volume relativities with other instruments in the PA.

 

2.  Provides galvanic isolation for your equipment.

 

3.  Reduces hum from ground loops.

[Montunoman 2]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful replies. A lot of these festivals have been with  DJs, who let  the entertainers run through their system. Most of the other acts are singers, who sing to tracks, and sometimes a mariachi band, that just mic the vocalist and maybe the acoustic guitar, vihuela,and guitarón. Anyways, I guess that these DJ 's aren't really professional sound engineers. They do have big systems, though and I'd rather use their system than lug around mine to play a 45 minuet set in the middle downtown Dallas, Fort Worth or some city park. 

 

Anyways, I gather I do need a DI box, my budget is about $200. Would this work? 

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ProD2--radial-prod2-2-channel-passive-instrument-direct-box

[ElmerJFudd]

15 minutes ago, CowboyNQ said:

Here’s a tip:  If you’re not providing your own DI box, say so in the tech advance and specifically request the sound engineer provides one for you.  Similarly, if you intend to run two channels for stereo, say so in the same document.  I always do this when using a third party sound company whether I’m playing a premium venue or the corner of a pub.  

Frankly, I agree with those above who say a sound engineer should have zero issue with this anyway.  But by preparing as I’ve suggested, any issues with who’s bringing what can be sorted out well in advance.

 

Why do you need a DI?  Three reasons:

 

1.  Converts line level to mic level which can make it easier for soundy to achieve volume relativities with other instruments in the PA.

 

2.  Provides galvanic isolation for your equipment.

 

3.  Reduces hum from ground loops.

😊 I should have used less words and numbers when explaining this. 

[Montunoman 2]

1 hour ago, CowboyNQ said:

 

 

Why do you need a DI?  Three reasons:

 

1.  Converts line level to mic level which can make it easier for soundy to achieve volume relativities with other instruments in the PA.

 

2.  Provides galvanic isolation for your equipment.

 

3.  Reduces hum from ground loops.

Thanks, I think I'm getting it! When listening back to iPhone recordings of my band playing at these city festivals, my keyboards are almost overpowered by the congas, sax, and vocals.  The band consist of vocals, congas, sax/flute, and keyboards ( I do LH bass and RH comps and leads/solos, and run some drum loops from the keyboard too. Not sure if I'm getting over powered by the acoustic instruments because of the DI box issue, or the "sound guy" not listening to the mix. Maybe both?  My keyboards are as loud as hell on the stage using their monitors.  

[Ivan May]

Back in the late seventies, Di recording was a fashionable thing. Nowadays, not so much.

 

Dougie Thomson’s Jazz Bass was usually recorded through the mixing console, on all those vintage Supertramp albums. I believe Dave Hope of Kansas also used to record his bass tracks through a Harrison mixer, and I know that Geddy Lee’s Rickenbacker on Fly By Night, Caress Of Steel and 2112 was also recorded through a DI signal, before Geddy moved on to Ampeg, Sun and Marshall amps during the Eighties.

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, Montunoman 2 said:

Not sure if I'm getting over powered by the acoustic instruments because of the DI box issue, or the "sound guy" not listening to the mix. Maybe both?  My keyboards are as loud as hell on the stage using their monitors.  

 

I feel confident saying it's not the DI box! 🙂 

[Montunoman 2]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I feel confident saying it's not the DI box! 🙂 

I have a feeling you're right!

[Garubi]

10 hours ago, CowboyNQ said:

Here’s a tip:  If you’re not providing your own DI box, say so in the tech advance and specifically request the sound engineer provides one for you.  Similarly, if you intend to run two channels for stereo, say so in the same document.  I always do this when using a third party sound company whether I’m playing a premium venue or the corner of a pub.  

I agree. It's very important.

We always send our channels list + on-stage positioning (I'm sorry I don't remember how do you name it in US or UK) when we have a third party sound company.

...and when possible... give them a phone call to be sure they have read it 😬 (and understood 😉).

 

 

[stoken6]

2 hours ago, Garubi said:

I agree. It's very important.

We always send our channels list + on-stage positioning (I'm sorry I don't remember how do you name it in US or UK) when we have a third party sound company.

...and when possible... give them a phone call to be sure they have read it 😬 (and understood 😉).

 

 

I say "technical rider". But you've got me thinking if I'm using that term wrong!

 

Cheers, Mike.

[CowboyNQ]

4 hours ago, Garubi said:

I agree. It's very important.

We always send our channels list + on-stage positioning (I'm sorry I don't remember how do you name it in US or UK) when we have a third party sound company.

...and when possible... give them a phone call to be sure they have read it 😬 (and understood 😉).

 

 

Not sure about the UK or US, but I’ve always called the overall document the “tech advance” and the specific elements you’re mentioning the “stage plot” and “input list”. 

[Reezekeys]

16 hours ago, Montunoman 2 said:

Anyways, I gather I do need a DI box, my budget is about $200. Would this work? 

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ProD2--radial-prod2-2-channel-passive-instrument-direct-box

 

That would work fine. I see a lot of these at our gigs - many professional sound companies use them. I will always advocate for the cheaper solution though - I'm in the minority here but have always been frugal with how I spend my money; I do this full-time and don't have much of it! The fact is, I'm not a sound company constantly working, transporting these DIs to different venues, getting them knocked around in equipment cases and thrown around stages by tech crews in a rush to set up or tear down. My DI is for emergencies only and gets very little use - I almost never bring it to a gig unless I know I'll need it. Again - it's not our job to make sure FOH can get our sound, other than provide the outputs for them to get their feed. If sound companies don't know by now, in 2022, that keyboards with 1/4" outputs exist, that's on them!

 

As others have pointed out, the higher-quality DIs use expensive transformers that have less distortion and possibly higher output than the cheaper ones. Whether this makes a difference playing live on stage is, imo, open to debate. If I was in a recording studio and printing tracks from my keys rig, I would expect - and definitely want - to see a Radial or equivalent DI. For live gigs, I don't think it makes that much of a difference. IMO and YMMV of course. Enjoy that Radial!

[Delaware Dave]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

"  .. I'm in the minority here but have always been frugal with how I spend my money .."

 

I'm the exact same way.  I've been using a Rapco DB100 since the early 90's.  Works for me; I've listened to my rig through the FOH, sounds fine.  The Radial is better but not necessary.  Why buy a Cadillac if a Chevy can get me there comfortably.  To each his own.

[Al Coda]

Every piece of gear being added to the signal chain affects the quality of the original signal.

A DI box does too and not always in a good way.

Because of transformers in use, there´s a more or less high distortion factor which adds to the signal.

And just only because a FOH guy wants, I don´t recognize any sense in converting a strong (and already balanced) line output signal w/ high S/N ratio into a low level mic signal w/ bad S/N ratio.

That was neccessary when FOH mixers had only MIC-Inputs on offer,- but that´s the PAST !

There are balanced line inputs on (almost) every digital mixer out there and every keyboard player can go from his keyboard´s or mixer´s balanced outputs into the stage box of the PA.

The only feature necessary is ground lift switch(es) on the FOH side,- or when not available,- a clean 1:1 line level isolation transformer per channel.

 

All these "HI-Z" instrument inputs on typical DI boxes are for electromagnetic instruments,- guitar, bass, Wurli, Rhodes, Clavinet,- even a Hammond organ´s line out.

I remember a "old fart" FOH guy came w/ such thing for my DP and a Minimoog D and complained his DI is "obviously overstrained" from my synth´s output level.

O.k., I then turned down volume on the Moog, but´s that´s not how it should be.

And yes, he wanted all in mono too, what made the DP sound like crap.

After the gig the owner of another big and way more professional PA rental came to me and said "the PA sounded like s##t, there were no highs at all".

I trusted him because I knew him since the 70s and had seen his company successfully growin´.

 

Deaf, old fart mono-signal and passive mono DI-box afficonado is what I really hate when it comes to keyboard amplification.

 

 

A.C.

 

[Delaware Dave]

2 hours ago, Al Coda said:

Deaf, old fart mono-signal and passive mono DI-box afficonado is what I really hate when it comes to keyboard amplification.

Tell us how you really feel ......

[jarrell]

3 hours ago, Al Coda said:

Every piece of gear being added to the signal chain affects the quality of the original signal.

A DI box does too and not always in a good way.

Because of transformers in use, there´s a more or less high distortion factor which adds to the signal.

And just only because a FOH guy wants, I don´t recognize any sense in converting a strong (and already balanced) line output signal w/ high S/N ratio into a low level mic signal w/ bad S/N ratio.

That was neccessary when FOH mixers had only MIC-Inputs on offer,- but that´s the PAST !

There are balanced line inputs on (almost) every digital mixer out there and every keyboard player can go from his keyboard´s or mixer´s balanced outputs into the stage box of the PA.

The only feature necessary is ground lift switch(es) on the FOH side,- or when not available,- a clean 1:1 line level isolation transformer per channel.

 

All these "HI-Z" instrument inputs on typical DI boxes are for electromagnetic instruments,- guitar, bass, Wurli, Rhodes, Clavinet,- even a Hammond organ´s line out.

I remember a "old fart" FOH guy came w/ such thing for my DP and a Minimoog D and complained his DI is "obviously overstrained" from my synth´s output level.

O.k., I then turned down volume on the Moog, but´s that´s not how it should be.

And yes, he wanted all in mono too, what made the DP sound like crap.

After the gig the owner of another big and way more professional PA rental came to me and said "the PA sounded like s##t, there were no highs at all".

I trusted him because I knew him since the 70s and had seen his company successfully growin´.

 

Deaf, old fart mono-signal and passive mono DI-box afficonado is what I really hate when it comes to keyboard amplification.

 

 

A.C.

 

I'n not sure how standard balanced outputs are on keyboards - I know Kurzweil has had them standard for years, not so sure about Yamaha, Roland, Korg, Nord, etc. Also not sure the transformers in a direct box add distortion or otherwise contribute to a lower S/N ration. Maybe with low cost/poorly designed direct boxes, but I think a quality one will not degrade the signal.

[SteinwayB]

My former CP4  had balanced outputs; my current NP3 does not so this topic is relevant to me as my PA (Genelec 8050b's) only have balanced inputs.  For pop/rock gigs where I will have multiple keyboards I will have a mixer, but for jazz gigs I will only have my NP3 so I will need something.  I have an ART Dual MP tube mic preamp which I could use; it's pretty cheap and not sure how much it will degrade the sound.

[Reezekeys]

FWIW you can buy adapting cables. My Alto TX308s have only balanced inputs. I did need my DI to connect my laptop’s headphone output to them until i bought an adapting cable from Amazon: 1/8” stereo miniplug to two male XLRs. Of course this isn’t a balanced connection, but that has never mattered since the cable length is around 10 feet at most.

[Outkaster]

Whirlwind Multi Director. I have it in a rack space with a line mixer and sound guys love it.

[Al Coda]

5 hours ago, jarrell said:

I'n not sure how standard balanced outputs are on keyboards - I know Kurzweil has had them standard for years, not so sure about Yamaha, Roland, Korg, Nord, etc. Also not sure the transformers in a direct box add distortion or otherwise contribute to a lower S/N ration. Maybe with low cost/poorly designed direct boxes, but I think a quality one will not degrade the signal.

 

When your keyboards don´t have balanced outputs,- a quality mixer will provide.

But electronically balanced outputs are different from transformer balanced outputs and might not prevent from all ground loops,- so isolation transformers help when simple ground lift doesn´t.

In most cases it does.

Every transformer degrades the signal and it´s only a question how much.

Some are designed to please the ear w/ harmonic distortion called "warmth" and "coloration",- but it´s a degradation still while phase shift is also a factor.

Avoid using audio tools you don´t urgently need in the signal chain.

 

I was able running completely unbalanced large rigs w/o noise problems in the past and I remember times where FOH consoles were unbalanced too.

That was not always a desaster ...

But s##t might happen,- and then, tools that really help are fine.

 

 

A.C.

 

 

 

 

[Al Coda]

7 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

Tell us how you really feel ......

 

Ehmmm ... you mean ... currently ?

 

 

A.C.

[Al Coda]

5 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

DI to connect my laptop’s headphone output

 

This is one of the rare cases I´d use a line level shifter w/ isolation transformer,- but not to bring the signal down to mic level,- instead boost -10dB up to +4dB studio line level.

 

 

A.C.

[stoken6]

21 hours ago, CowboyNQ said:

 the specific elements you’re mentioning the “stage plot” and “input list”. 

Agree with that terminology.

[cphollis]

On 10/6/2022 at 2:50 AM, Garubi said:

I agree. It's very important.

We always send our channels list + on-stage positioning (I'm sorry I don't remember how do you name it in US or UK) when we have a third party sound company.

...and when possible... give them a phone call to be sure they have read it 😬 (and understood 😉).

 

 

We call it a "stage plot" around here. 

 

I found the OP stating that he was usually running through a DJ's system rather enlightening.  DJs aren't sound techs, and don't want to be one.  

 

The best practice I've learned?  Be prepared to be responsible for your own sound -- all of it -- from finger to ear.

 

That means I always bring extras, spares, just-in-case stuff, etc.  Including amplification and a backup keyboard if I'm playing a festival at a distance.  When I'm responsible for the band, it's the same thing only with more gear.

 

I may end up hauling stuff that doesn't get used, but that's OK.

[Reezekeys]

9 hours ago, Al Coda said:

15 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

DI to connect my laptop’s headphone output

 

This is one of the rare cases I´d use a line level shifter w/ isolation transformer,- but not to bring the signal down to mic level,- instead boost -10dB up to +4dB studio line level.

 

I'm pretty sure the headphone output of my MacBook Pro is hotter than -10dB level. I've never needed to boost it for my gigs where I connect it directly to my QSCs (and now, Altos) - It easily drives them to full output. Never a ground loop or other noise issue either, which is not surprising given the relatively short cable lengths - or is it luck? 🙂 

[Al Coda]

55 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I'm pretty sure the headphone output of my MacBook Pro is hotter than -10dB level. I've never needed to boost it for my gigs where I connect it directly to my QSCs (and now, Altos) - It easily drives them to full output. Never a ground loop or other noise issue either, which is not surprising given the relatively short cable lengths - or is it luck? 🙂 

 

Well, almost every consumer electronics 1/8" TS (or 2x cinch) line level output is rated @-10dB.

This rules for laptops too and I dunno if a Macbook Pro is different or not.

-10dB is the typical consumer level unbalanced line level signal already and much hotter than electric guitar-, bass-, other electromagnetic instruments´ or a mic signal.

 

But I mentioned "line level shifter".

Ebtech,- now Morley-, built some as also "Hum Eliminator"s and I myself I still use a Fostex 5030 8-channel device which originally was made to bring their reel-to-reel MTRs w/ -10dB consumer line level output up to +4dB studio level on balanced XLR outputs.

It works very well for all consumer level HiFi gear, laptops´ and desktops´ phones/ line outputs.

 

Here´s a 2-channel device https://www.morleyproducts.com/line-level-shifter/

 

IMO, that´s the right tool when using a keyboard w/ unbalanced line outputs, want to eliminate ground loops and go balanced +4dB line level to PA.

 

But other gear can do the same and more,- the Behringer ULTRALINK PRO MX882 V2 p.ex. (see specs) and it uses a dedicated I/O transformer in every of it´s 6 mono I/O channels while summing these and an additional stereo input channel into stereo balanced XLR main outputs .

It´s a very flexible tool which never failed in more than 2 decades now.

 

There was, possibly still is, an almost identical RANE splitter/mixer product available.

 

I used to combine 3 line mixers´ (2 Roland M-160, 1 Rolls RM-203) balanced outs, then ran to the amp rack in stereo.

Always worked as it should, low noise, no hum.

 

But I don´t use DI boxes.

When the FOH guy wants all at mic level urgently,- he should use his toys ´cause I´m not willing to invest money for.

 

 

A.C.

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

I had a post a few months back on here where we were talking about DIs and their real world use vs other options.  I can't find the link though.  Once I did it, I'll post it here.  It may have some great info in it for you.  

 

With that said, I just recently invested in the Radial Pro D8 and the Radial JD6 as part of my live recording and studio set up.  

 

Some say a great DI can be a very good tool to have in your rig.  Sometimes running in stereo can be a pain for FOH especially when you consider channel count and also the limited benefits of it for the audience when in a larger space (they kinda only get one side of the sound....if that makes sense.)

 

Carrying your own DI is a great thing though... There are some other options. But it helps just in case.  You'd think that the engineer may have some but if he's having to carry enough for 6 channels of keyboards, that could get a little weird.  Lol.  

 

I'll see if I can find that link and post it for you.  It may help alot.  There were a lot of comments. 

[Reezekeys]

3 hours ago, Al Coda said:

Well, almost every consumer electronics 1/8" TS (or 2x cinch) line level output is rated @-10dB.

This rules for laptops too and I dunno if a Macbook Pro is different or not.

-10dB is the typical consumer level unbalanced line level signal already and much hotter than electric guitar-, bass-, other electromagnetic instruments´ or a mic signal.

 

I've never heard a headphone output called "line level" - it's always hotter. Try connecting typical headphones to a -10 or even +4 signal - I don't think you're going to get much volume. I am aware of the differences in impedances and the design of amp circuits to drive them, so that may play a role here, but I still think that a typical headphone amp – even one in a consumer laptop –  can deliver close to if not more than a +4 line out level. My MacBook Pro's headphone output has never disappointed me.

 

Everybody has their own needs and use cases. For me it's either small local gigs going direct from headphone out to my QSCs, or on the road where I go into a stereo DI. Touring, I don't get to call the shots - it's DIs all the way, that's how sound companies do it. I know my headphone output goes through the transformer and becomes mic-level, but honestly it just works and sounds fine to me. I don't hear it anyway - I monitor through my wired in-ears from the pass-through of the DI.

 

I understand your saying you want to get as hot a signal to the PA as possible – to stay far off the noise floor I presume? Something interesting to me is that when I tour with AWB they take a DI off my bass. I mean directly from the bass, not from any special output on the bass amp. My bass is passive, no preamp built-in. I suspect that's an even lower than -10dB signal, yet it works just fine; our FOH guy has never mentioned any problem and I think they do it like that all the time. (We also mic the bass cab, the two signals are mixed at FOH).