Do you get annoyed by not matching what you hear in headphones to...

[miden]

Speakers?

 

Just continuing the " getting annoyed" theme of late....NOT a parody thread!

 

I have used many different sets of PA speakers - EV, QSC JBL, Bose - the list goes on, but I have yet to find one that matches what I hear in my headphones when dealing with AP and EP, heck, even organ.

 

You get a GREAT and sweet sound happening, take off the cans plugin in to the speakers and.....it all turns to shite!! So you go madly re-setting EQ's and other "what-nots" to try and get close, never happens!

 

Really annoys the heck out of me!!

[Docbop]

I go through the same thing even with studio monitors my headphones always sounds better.   That with Kronos and even my current Nord, but the Nord is closer.    Who knows where in the circuit in the keyboard the headphone jack is coming off of.   Then in my case the output of the Nord is going to an audio interface to get some more gain.  Seems all the keyboards I've tried the output signal was on the weaker side.   Then onto the speakers pre-amp and amp so more places the sound can be colored.  Finally to the speakers which designed for pushing a lot of air not just blow sound into your ears.    So a lot of points the sound can change.    In my case the audio interface did help add gain to the signal going to speakers amp and they helped. 

[KuruPrionz]

Headphones are difficult to use for mixing, at best. Trusting them to sound like something that's playing in a gigging room is expecting too much. The environment is completely different and so are the things you want to adjust.

Headphones are useless if you are mixing live sound. Mix live sound by how it sounds in the room with people in it and the band on stage. You can't hear the room on headphones. I know that's a feature but it can be a disaster.

Any other way of doing it will provide information for a situation that isn't real and it will sound different when the actual gig occurs. 

 

To make things worse, it's a fact that different speakers sound different (as do different headphones), it is also a fact that placing speakers in different locations in a room will sound different. 

There are LOTS of variables and many cannot be changed but may be different at different locations. 

 

You can use canned music too but without a room full of people (and maybe a full dance floor) you won't tweak correctly. The people are random absorber, reflectors of sound and change the sound of a room considerably. Getting the mix with a live band is by far the best method if that is the result you seek. 

[obxa]

I realized a long time ago keyboards sound horrible once you try to amplify them at typical band combat volume.   I've been down the road with everything from boutique to PA speakers.  I'm always disappointed.   Organs and EPs are cool with some actual dirt (or even a guitar amp...), but synth sounds and AP- can't deal with it.

 

So I use IEMs for everything live except  solo or jazz acoustic piano gigs.  Some piano gigs I have to use a slab piano with a Bose stick, and that's no aural picnic either. But for anything with volume, IEM's let me hear stereo, and my ears aren't ringing.   Most important- things  sound  consistent from gig to gig.  If something is way off,  most FOH guys will let you know. 

 

For what I do I've been pretty happy that my custom patches, drawbar settings,  and other tweaks  tend to hold up when I hear (live or broadcast ) mixes.  

 

When it comes to studio stuff:  Always firmly believed you absolutely can't mix exclusively on headphones.  Been using AKG240s (open) since the 80's.  Trust them for tweaking patches, or  listening to edits and stuff - but wouldn't ever mix on them.  

 Recently grabbed a pair of Beyer Dynamic 770's (closed)  on no brainer sale from New Egg.    Always heard engineers raving about them.  Did a late night mix for client with the 770's,   fully intending on doing a proper remix in the morning on my near-fields.  I was amazed how balanced the 770 mix was on my mains and other systems.  Probably tells me my room still needs more treatment too.   Still wouldn't do 100%, but would definitely use them more than would have considered in the past.    

[Theo Verelst]

I don't have that same problem, but there is a distinct difference in headphone sound with no natural reverb or binoral sound components and a decent full range speaker system in a listening or studio space, and they can't sound "the same" at different volume because f the loudness perception frequency sensitivity.

 

T

[Reezekeys]

Amateur scientist here with my "theory", lol: headphones send sound directly into your ears. Speakers push air into an acoustic space - most of the time a room with walls, maybe furniture, carpeting, windows, "meat baffles" (that's us!), that reflect and absorb sound waves in a multitude of ways depending on frequency, location, distance, etc. This results in phase cancellations and reinforcements that our brains interpret in a variety of ways, which I've read up on a little but are way over my pay grade. Of course the speakers themselves have an effect on the sound, from the quality of the drivers to the cabinet material, which I'm pretty sure have an impact on what we hear. Isn't that a big part of why solid wood cabinet speakers sound better than cheaper plastic models? And as miden says, EQ is often no help when it's phase issues screwing up your sound.

 

My NI Grandeur piano sounds fantastic in my headphones, and in a recording I listen to on my studio monitors. On a gig through my QSCs I much prefer my older NY Piano. My theory is that the Grandeur piano's samples were recorded with the mics a little further away than with the NY Piano, so more reflections from the piano case & soundboard are "baked into" the samples, and these interact with the speaker cabinet and room to give the sound a kind of "muddy" quality. The NY Piano's samples are "dryer" or in a way more "pure" so they don't exhibit this effect when I'm on a gig.

[Stokely]

No doubt.

After doing some patch work on my rig yesterday, I found one (dubious) "benefit" of having to go mono--everything sounds just as bad as it does through a speaker.

Seriously the Forte's pianos sound godawful, middy and honky to the point where I may look into buying a library if I can find one that works in mono.  The "legacy piano", which I presume is the old triple strike, probably sounds the least terrible.   These are making the Modx piano mono sound, which I have already complained about, seem like the better option.

Speaking of the Grandeur, for kicks I bought Mainstage as a possible first-call option for piano (though I was thinking a synth keyboard without a piano would be the controller).   In mono, nope.  The Grandeur lost all of its grandeur.  And not just talking a less pleasing sound, it fundamentally collapsed into a mess.  CFX lite with the spread control at zero fared better.   I need to reinstall Addictive Keys to see how they'd do.   Soniccouture has a bundle sale and the Hammersmith has a mono tube mic recording, I'm considering picking that up.  (That bundle is a great deal if you need/want their libraries).

 

[Morrissey]

This thread reminds me of the band Umphrey's McGee and their "Headphones and Snowcones" program.  Basically, a limited number of audience members can rent In Ear Monitors from the band at their shows and listen to the performance through a wireless feed from the soundboard.  Pretty cool.

 

https://www.umphreys.com/tour/headphones-snowcones/

 

 

 

[GovernorSilver]

I was curious about how Jordan Rudess' synth sounds are treated for live shows with Dream Theater.   Looks like they have their own sound engineer who tours with them.  This seems to be a recurring pattern among keyboardists who synths actually sit in the the live mix in a loud rock band setting, instead of the usual burial beneath the guitar(s) and drums - Bring Your Own Sound Person.

 

2020 rig includes a Hammond XK5 that is run through, surprise, a Vent... AND a Line 6 Helix.

 

 

[Stokely]

No arguing that this stereotype is a thing (if I had a dollar for every time I come off the stage and hear "you are awesome, but I couldn't really hear you!"   leaving me thinking, how do you know I'm awesome if you couldn't hear me?)

That said, a live sound guy who doesn't balance the instruments on stage is either a) incompetent or b) lazy and can't be bothered.    And, after playing with one particular guitarist a few years ago, I guess you can add  c) the band sounds better with them turned down.

I could see a complex band like DT having a team of live sound people who might focus on different areas, I've never worked in a big live crew so I'm totally guessing.

[drawback]

2 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

Amateur scientist here with my "theory", lol: headphones send sound directly into your ears. Speakers push air into an acoustic space - most of the time a room with walls, maybe furniture, carpeting, windows, "meat baffles" (that's us!), that reflect and absorb sound waves in a multitude of ways depending on frequency, location, distance, etc. This results in phase cancellations and reinforcements that our brains interpret in a variety of ways, which I've read up on a little but are way over my pay grade. Of course the speakers themselves have an effect on the sound, from the quality of the drivers to the cabinet material, which I'm pretty sure have an impact on what we hear. Isn't that a big part of why solid wood cabinet speakers sound better than cheaper plastic models? And as miden says, EQ is often no help when it's phase issues screwing up your sound.

I've been using a BBE Sonic Maximizer at my desk for a couple of years to help make my speakers sound more like what I get out of my headphones. This is for the pleasure of it – I'm not an audio engineer or producer, but it's obvious that mixing with these would not be advisable and they shouldn't be applied to excess. Anyway, this has always been a controversial bit of kit, but in my case the BBE SM works well, closely replicating what I get out of my Sony 7506s to my JBL 305s. It helped fix up my Spacestation too, although that may have been possible adding outboard EQ.

[timwat]

I think many of us began getting dissatisfied with the "keyboard combo amp" offerings when inexpensive studio monitors started hitting the hobbyist's price point, round about the mid to late 90's (I'm thinking of units like the original Mackie HR824).

 

This made it possible for a lot of keyboard players to suddenly hear what their expensive keyboards actually sound like on relatively flat, uncolored amplification - and that was revelatory for many of us. And suddenly that muppet hide KC amp that EVERYONE used was exposed for what it really was.

 

We've since seen a lot of advances in amplification, some of us jumping into obscenely expensive self-powered PA speakers. And that reveals another truth - the transducer is always going to add its own sonic signature to the room...which is ALSO part of the resonating "instrument" (and which in a live gig setting, you can't really control or adjust, except to overpower it with a concert line array PA at jet plane sound pressure levels).

 

[miden]

great replies! Have to say I agree with pretty much everything here. I guess the fact that speakers are in the "open air" and cans are direct to ear makes a difference, but jeez it'd be nice if a manufacturer could factor that in when setting these devices up. Or alternatively provide a plugin (at cost) that emulates how whatever we are hearing will sound in an open room. Not sure IF it can be done but would be nice!

[Reezekeys]

There are "virtual mix room" plugins that claim to deliver through headphones what room reflections from speakers do. I'm not sure if this would help anyone adjust things so their keys sounds good in a PPA or other keyboard amp – they're designed for folks that need to mix studio projects on the road using headphones, and they simulate the acoustics of a good studio mix room - not your corner pub. Still, it might give a better idea of what your live sound will be vs. headphones alone. This one from Waves is not too expensive right now: https://www.waves.com/plugins/nx#introducing-nx-virtual-mix-room

[miden]

16 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

There are "virtual mix room" plugins that claim to deliver through headphones what room reflections from speakers do. I'm not sure if this would help anyone adjust things so their keys sounds good in a PPA or other keyboard amp – they're designed for folks that need to mix studio projects on the road using headphones, and they simulate the acoustics of a good studio mix room - not your corner pub. Still, it might give a better idea of what your live sound will be vs. headphones alone. This one from Waves is not too expensive right now: https://www.waves.com/plugins/nx#introducing-nx-virtual-mix-room

 

 

Thanks, didn't  know such things were available...I'll have a look at that!

 

As you write, it's more for monitors than a pub, but a step closer hey!

[KuruPrionz]

58 minutes ago, miden said:

great replies! Have to say I agree with pretty much everything here. I guess the fact that speakers are in the "open air" and cans are direct to ear makes a difference, but jeez it'd be nice if a manufacturer could factor that in when setting these devices up. Or alternatively provide a plugin (at cost) that emulates how whatever we are hearing will sound in an open room. Not sure IF it can be done but would be nice!

There are simply too many factors to live rooms to cover everything. 

My band used to play a fairly small lounge with very thick (theater or casino quality) carpeting and heavy drapes over the windows. You had to play pretty loud to even be heard in that room and there were no flutter echoes. I don't know if there were phasing problems but most likely there were some minor ones. Overall the fidelity was good in that room, other bands I heard sounded good there. 

 

A couple of times I've played in echo chambers that were so loud that you literally had to get very close together and watch each other play to be able to stay in time but I'm not sure it mattered much to the audience since they heard us bouncing around the room, sort of like 15 digital delays set to different times. That's a straight up nightmare!!!!

 

Most places sound pretty OK at reasonable volumes but none of them sound like having headphones on. 

My best advice is to ditch the headphones for dialing in sounds. If you need a headphone mix for playing, do that separately from the live mix because they will never match at all. That's a fantasy to let go of, sooner would be better than later. 😇

[PianoMan51]

I have a personal  ‘rule of thumb’ about headphones vs. speakers… 

 

Consider a pair of good quality headphones.

 

To match that headphone sound quality with nearfield monitors spend 3-5 times as much.

 

To match that nearfield sound quality with stage speakers, spend another 3-5 times as much.

 

YMMV, but the concept isn’t wrong.

[mate stubb]

I went from sad to glad when I got my RCF TT08a pair.

[ElmerJFudd]

I do have to practice with headphones often.  And, yes, everything sounds amazing in good headphones and there is less awesomeness having to go through PA and the room we’re in.  Unfortunate but true.  Makes speaker choice compression and eq a big deal. 

[bill bosco]

fascinating subject , as an example , my hammond A100 through a vent into my mixing board sounds great through phones , but from the same mixer into two QSC 

K8.2S i can hear the sound degrade . however , a recording of a hammond through the same stereo speaker setup sounds fantastic , always does . how is this ? what is getting lost in translation ? what does recorded audio have that the actual instrument to audio lacks . 

[miden]

1 hour ago, mate stubb said:

I went from sad to glad when I got my RCF TT08a pair.

 

 

At near $2.5 - 3k EACH, they'd wanna be good!! (that's Oz dollars)

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, PianoMan51 said:

I have a personal  ‘rule of thumb’ about headphones vs. speakers… 

 

Consider a pair of good quality headphones.

 

To match that headphone sound quality with nearfield monitors spend 3-5 times as much.

 

To match that nearfield sound quality with stage speakers, spend another 3-5 times as much.

 

YMMV, but the concept isn’t wrong.

And... you get what you pay for. With headphones, yes they sound great but as your OP clearly states they don't sound like the speakers you are trying to match and mix.

You'll never get a match. Eventually you might get a mix via trial and error but time has value also and it could take quite a good bit of it. Frustration may not have value but it does have a cost. 

 

My "rule of thumb" is "do what you can until you do what you must." 😇

[timwat]

25 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

My "rule of thumb" is "do what you can until you do what you must." 😇

 

"That's what she said."

 

"In your pants."

 

Sorry, the fifth grader in me got loose at the keyboard again.

[Stokely]

I'd love to get out front and hear what the keys sound like.  A cell phone or even a zoom recording helps but it still is going to sound "small" and canned.   Recording from the main mixer of course doesn't tell you what it sounds like out front.   Our lead singer plays some keys, I need to talk her into playing on a tune where the guitarist sings   (And then of course we are two different players even that has issues if velocity and playing choices come into it...)

I'll try my old zoom h2 at the next show if I can find the darn thing.   Beats a cell phone at least.

[Mighty Motif Max]

11 hours ago, Stokely said:

...

Seriously the Forte's pianos sound godawful, middy and honky to the point where I may look into buying a library if I can find one that works in mono.  The "legacy piano", which I presume is the old triple strike, probably sounds the least terrible...

 

I gig mostly in mono for band work and had a similar impression at first with my PC4 (same basic samples, not as high-spec). What worked for me was to take the Studio 7’ Grand patch, isolate the mid frequency that annoyed me (I can’t remember what it was exactly), cut it about 40%, add some more lows, and add about 20% more highs. Then change the reverb decay length/time to around 100, and set the mix to about 8-9 or so (out of 127). It made a boxy sounding piano sound more than good enough for most band work, and it’s especially nice for modern pop and worship tunes that often use an upright as their piano of choice (often NI’s “The Gentleman” I believe).

[The Real MC]

On 8/10/2022 at 11:51 PM, miden said:

I have used many different sets of PA speakers - EV, QSC JBL, Bose - the list goes on, but I have yet to find one that matches what I hear in my headphones when dealing with AP and EP, heck, even organ.

 

You get a GREAT and sweet sound happening, take off the cans plugin in to the speakers and.....it all turns to shite!! So you go madly re-setting EQ's and other "what-nots" to try and get close, never happens!

 

Really annoys the heck out of me!!

 

You're doing it wrong.  Headphones can lie to you.

 

I learned a long time ago that headphones should NEVER be the reference.  Speakers projecting in air are NEVER going to be same as the sound in headphones.

 

NONE of my four headphones were a good reference for program mixes.  They all had their faults in the frequency spectrum, and some can hide the mud in a mix.

 

Headphones can fatigue your ears so gradually you don't notice it.  

 

Small wonder you have so much trouble getting the same sound from speakers!

 

I had to mix a live band recording using headphones once out of necessity and I had so much trouble getting my mixes to sound good in my acid test car radio system that I swore off headphones for program mixes.  

My reference has been my JBL Control-5 with subwoofers.  My studio sounds translate to my Bose 802 speakers very well, and I have been happy with the results.  The audience is not hearing over headphones.

The ONLY time I use headphones during a mixing session is on a problem source in isolation or when auditioning synth sounds in isolation.  But when it comes time to put those sources in a mix, the headphones come off.

 

[Anderton]

10 hours ago, miden said:

Thanks, didn't  know such things were available...I'll have a look at that!

 

As you write, it's more for monitors than a pub, but a step closer hey!

 

Correct, not for pubs. I have to admit I always figured they were snake oil. But I recently collaborated on a remote mix where we both had "virtual studio" plugins with the same headphones. We don't have the same rooms or speakers, so it was a godsend to be able to mix in the same environment (albeit a virtual one) even though we were 1200 miles away from each other. Ultimately, what was most surprising was that the mixes translated really well to speakers. 

 

The Waves virtual studios with the NX Headtracker (which transmits your head position to the software) are downright freakish. When you turn your head around, it sounds like the "speakers" are behind you. Turn your head to the right, and the audio sounds like it's coming from your left. Crazy stuff. It's designed more for working with VR and surround projects, but it does make you feel like you're mixing in front of speakers because your ears are getting spatial cues.

[The Piano Man]

2 hours ago, The Real MC said:

My studio sounds translate to my Bose 802 speakers very well, and I have been happy with the results.  The audience is not hearing over headphones.

Intrigued by your choice of Bose 802 for keys monitoring. I had a pair for general PA use and, even using with the Panaray controller, I found that I got much better sound with my QSC K10s. 
 

However, I never did try the 802 for just keys. Do you mind me asking your setup in terms of controller and amp? And is it Series 2 or 3? Also, what keyboards/sounds are you putting through it? I wouldn’t rule out giving it a try as 802s often come up at a fair price locally. 
 

Thanks!

[The Real MC]

10 hours ago, The Piano Man said:

However, I never did try the 802 for just keys. Do you mind me asking your setup in terms of controller and amp? And is it Series 2 or 3? Also, what keyboards/sounds are you putting through it? I wouldn’t rule out giving it a try as 802s often come up at a fair price locally. 

 

If you try a Bose 802, the Bose 802c controller is a must.  The controller optimizes the signal for the 802, without it the 802 sounds like crap.

 

I prefer the Series 2.  They have the cloth impregnated surrounds on the speakers that do not rot with age.

 

What sounds am I putting through it?  Everything.  Piano, EP, strings, horns, synths, all of it.  The only thing the 802 (and your K10) doesn't do well is boomy bass.

Two of them can easily keep up with a guitar player using a loud 100w guitar amp.  The amps I used them with were a Crown D150, QSC RMX,  Moog Synamp, a cheap Peavey (for rehearsal).  All worked fine.

[Docbop]

1 hour ago, The Real MC said:

 

If you try a Bose 802, the Bose 802c controller is a must.  The controller optimizes the signal for the 802, without it the 802 sounds like crap.

Sounds like Bose hasn't changed since they first came out.     I remember the original Bose what was it 9 speaker, reflective sound speakers and that was their big hype over and over.   Basically they were 9 high end car stereo speakers so tech reviewer decided to dig in and figure why does it sound good.   In the end the whole secret was the mystery box that was a EQ tuned to  the speakers to make them sound good.   Turn off the mystery box and the Bose sounded like everyday bookshelf speakers, but  they tried to keep that key to the sound was that box away from the consumers.     So sounds like nothing has changed.