Boards stacked close together or far apart

[AnotherScott]

This kind of picks up from stuff I've posted in the past in the "Dig My Rig" thread an in one or more threads about keyboard stands, but it's a little different from any of that, so I started this one instead of picking up from a post in one of those.

 

I have long been a fan of keeping my board pairs as close together as possible, aiming toward the utopian "it could be a two manual organ" layout, for its aesthetics and its ergonomics. But that works best when the bottom board (or for all boards except the top one on a multi-board stack) would not require much accessible depth for its control surface. I've posted photos of 2, 3, and even 4 tier rigs set up this way. But right now, my "working set" of three boards are all deep, and, well, it ended up being nicer to play with the boards stacked with distance between them than I'd expected. Here's the 3-deep config that just doesn't quite work if you keep all the boards close together... Everything is reachable, but it's a bit of a stretch, and instead of looking neat and cool, I think it looks a bit goofy, like an aircraft carrier.

 

 

I think this "spaciously stacked" version both looks better, and feels more comfortable to play... though I suppose one could also say it's starting to look like a display at Guitar Center. (Or what might be a display at Guitar Center, if they had the kind of selection they used to.)

 

(And yes, I have my "little" imitation Minimoog on the 1st config, and my "big" one on the second... an SE-02 and Creamware Minimax respectively. I know, the SE-02 is true analog, but for my purposes, they both sound great. The creamware is polyphonic and has nice meaty full-sized controls. Big and heavy, though. Well, not compared to a Minimoog. But back to the topic at hand...)

 

If I actually were to gig with this trio, there's a big difference in stage footprint too, as you can probably see here...

 

 

On the left, there's a two-tier stand for the front pair, and a taller single-tier stand holding up the rear board. On the right it's a single 3-tier config... K&M 18880 + stackers. (The Standtastic 3-tier would probably work nicely for this too, and would allow a tilt on the top-most board which might be nice, though the K&M is lighter and less awkward to move.)

 

Anyway, I just thought I'd share that. Anyone else finding themselves less dogmatic about how boards "should" be set up than they used to be?

 

[Mighty Motif Max]

Every board I use has a screen that's set back far enough that it's not practical for me to have things spaced too closely together. I've never gone past a 2-board stack though, outside the studio (if I needed more boards, they went in an L-configuration for gigs). This is even more true now that I often gig with two boards that have pitch/mod wheels above the keys, which means I need sufficient space to reach my fairly-large hands underneath the top board to actually use them (*cough* PC4). I could get closer together with my Motif XF8 + 61 controller rig because of the button and control layout...things were laid out more horizontally across the control surface of the Motif than they are on the PC4 (like QA buttons). But I'm not a particularly tall guy either, so it was difficult to strike a balance of the proper playing level for the bottom board so I wouldn't have to hunch over (or, alternatively, strain the wrists) to play both comfortably. That kind of defeated the purpose IMO...so I've generally kept about a 6-8 inch 4-7 inch spacing between my boards. I can have them horizontally close then so they're comfortable in terms of reaching etc. Although none of my stands have the ability to adjust depth, just angle and height. And speaking of angle, I always angle my top board down about 20-30 degrees for ease of readabilty and less hand strain.

 

I should also probably mention the caveat that I have Scheuermann's disease, so it always takes extra effort to not bend forward when playing, so I'm really picky about ergonomics these days since my diagnosis. Not sure I've found the perfect balance yet.

 

Edit: I lied...just measured the current Fantom/PC4 rig...right around 4 inches of spacing between the boards (PC4 on bottom)

[Tom Williams]

I currently use a two-keyboard stack, with a low-end 88 key M-Audio controller below a Kurzweil PC4-7.  The M-Audio board has nothing above the keys, so I can position it like the great manual of an organ directly below the PC4.  SO they are neither horizontally nor vertically distant from each other. 

 

In the event I have to choose, such as when I have the Casio PS-5X on the bottom, I go for horizontally close / vertically distant.

[mynameisdanno]

My keyboard selections for any gig are essentially dictated by the desire to keep a tight-as-humanly-possible setup in both depth and height.  It is an artificial limitation that has kept me from seriously considering a lot of great gear (any major weighted 88 workstation with a deep control panel is pretty much out of the question), but it's important to me.  Fortunately the Nord Stage 2/3 Compact over any ol' slab 88 (used strictly as a controller) checks all the sonic boxes for 95% of my gigs.  It also has the side effect that the board with all the brains and custom patches is easily flyable as checked luggage.

 

For these reasons, if the Nord Stage Compact or some similar beast didn't exist, I probably would have gone to laptop world a long time ago.

[CyberGene]

I’m no gigging musician and I won’t ever use three keyboards but even with “only” two I like the top one to be angled towards me. Can’t imagine three horizontal keyboards, it would be too difficult to play the top one. As to the Minimoog-imitation, look beneath the CP 🤣

 

[Jon E]

Fully agree with mynameisdanno. I am sitting when playing and could not play anything well with a setup like what you show in the pictures Scott. I currently use a NS3 Compact on top of an old Yamaha S90es.

[Adam C.]

It’s definitely a Topic that has plagued Keyboardists since the very beginning it seems, hasn’t it? 😄

 

Over the years I’ve tried many, MANY different Stands and configurations, but the two that are always my favorites for whatever reason are the old ‘A-Frame’ tubular “ULTIMATE SUPPORT STANDS” from the 80’s, and also the incredibly versatile, (and sadly long out-of-production) “INVISIBLE KEYBOARD STANDS”.

 

Honestly, I don’t know if a perfect solution to the problem will ever be achieved at this point.

 

 

[Outkaster]

I always keep mine flat as possible.  Playing at an angle is not good for technique and you can actually harm yourself

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, Outkaster said:

I always keep mine flat as possible.  Playing at an angle is not good for technique and you can actually harm yourself

I don't agree with that. Have you seen how long it takes for concert pianists to set the height and placement of their piano bench in concerts? That's because having the proper height and angle of your forearms is crucial for the given piano height which is of course flat and fixed. Now imagine putting one or even two keyboard above the main one. There's simply no way you can play them optimally by just placing them flat and further away from you. Intuitively, you should rotate only your arm at the shoulder and maintain the 90-degree angle in your elbow as well as wrist/forearm angle and thus the other keyboards should be angled and be placed around the circle your arms do when rotated at your shoulder. Of course that's not possible, especially with big synths and workstations but at least some approximation should be sought IMO.

[Adan]

My willingness to reach for a keyboard is inversely proportional to how much time I actually spend playing it.  A synth that's there just for some signature lines and the occasional solo?  Sure, that can be elevated or off to the side.   When it comes to organ/EP/AP pairings, I'm into both of them all the time and often switching which hand does which.  I want those as close as possible and consequently wasted the flower of my youth figuring out ways to make that configuration work.  Of course it can't be done with the real instruments, but this is one of the major advantages of digital, so I've tried to maximize that advantage.  

 

Usually this takes the form of finding a way to stack the organ as closely as possible above the piano keyboard.  As some posted above, you can do this nicely putting a Nord Stage above and midi'd to a hammer action slab.  For awhile I had a Crumar Seven and could sit the organ keyboard on its flat top.  That was pretty ideal but eventually I lost faith in the TP100 action of the Seven.

 

Having keyboards far apart allows you to strike Emerson-esque poses that may help you get the girls.  But don't kid yourself . . . you're still just the keyboard player.

[Tracii]

I actually looked to you for inspiration, Scott. 🙂 I like my boards flat as well, but I want to be able to reach the controls on the lower one.

 

 

This is as close together as I can get away with. It required some minor work on the K&M 18880.

[ABECK]

1 hour ago, Adam C. said:

Over the years I’ve tried many, MANY different Stands and configurations, but the two that are always my favorites for whatever reason are the old ‘A-Frame’ tubular “ULTIMATE SUPPORT STANDS” from the 80’s, and also the incredibly versatile, (and sadly long out-of-production) “INVISIBLE KEYBOARD STANDS”.

 

Agree on the Invisible stands.  They were ideal for stacking 2 boards (not a fan of more than that), and enabled offsetting the top board a little or fully.  The stage pics in your thread show how clean and un-obstructive they were.  OTOH, they were a bitch to height adjust.

[kaptainkeys]

8 minutes ago, Adan said:

Having keyboards far apart allows you to strike Emerson-esque poses that may help you get the girls.  But don't kid yourself . . . you're still just the keyboard player.

That's why Adam has that keytar in his rig...

[DJkeys]

1 hour ago, Tracii said:

I actually looked to you for inspiration, Scott. 🙂 I like my boards flat as well, but I want to be able to reach the controls on the lower one.

 

 

This is as close together as I can get away with. It required some minor work on the K&M 18880.

I have nearly the exact same setup-

 

-dj

[NosPup]

DJ, How did you get your mic stand connected in that setup?  I've been looking for a good way to do that but havent figured it out yet.

[Al Quinn]

I like to position my bottom board with weighted action for optimal comfort while sitting and my top board with waterfall action for comfortable playing while sitting or standing. By angling the top board slightly this works out well for me. I slide the bottom board as far under the top board as possible while still being able to select patches on the bottom board. The stand is a K&M 18880 with stacker arms. Since this pic was taken the top board has been replaced with a Hammond SK Pro 61. 
 

It’s been a long while since I’ve used three keyboards on a gig. I remember once using three stacked (Yamaha CP33, Korg CX3, Roland JV90) but wasn’t happy: the ergonomics were too much of a compromise. I also remember using two stacked (Rhodes 73, DX7) with a third to my left (ARP String Ensemble or Korg Poly 61) in an L config but that was also too much of a compromise. 
 

 

[Stokely]

I really don't care how they look, just how easy they are to use and play.

I'd prefer them close together and with the top one not much further back, but too close you end up leaning over squinting trying to see controls and the screen on the bottom board...not a great look on stage.    None of my keyboards really lend themselves well to this, having a lot of controls and the screens are closer to the back, so I have a fair amount of space between them.  Not a huge deal.

[ProfD]

IMO, no amount of effort gives modern KB rigs the impressive stage presence of an acoustic piano or Hammond B3 or Rhodes. 

 

Of course, the newer KB gear is highly functional in terms of getting the job done (sound, ergonomic, schlep, etc.).  It just *looks* like an erector set. 🤣😎

[Stokely]

Even going way back, I always liked the simple look (if I had to pick a look).  Tony Kaye on the Big Generator tour with his swiveling mysterious Jetson's looking rig.

I sing lead on some songs, so that's one reason I prefer standing and not being walled in by keyboards.  Like a drummer singing, it's kind of weird when the audience can't easily tell who is doing the vocals imo.   The other reasons being, I don't have roadies, and I already have headaches leveling patches with one or two keyboards!

In fairness, I definitely can see the appeal of being surrounded by a cave of keyboards, like Medeski with his beat-up vintage instruments, or someone with a bunch of synths.  And of course Geoff Downes with a literal wall of 21 keyboards on that one Asia tour.

[CEB]

My setup depends on two things.

1) The gig and what it pays.

2) Whether I have cartage or I have to actually work. Before 2013 when I never personally hauled my gear I tended to go big.  LOL  In 2014 I bought the Ventilator.

[Still VanDerGraaf]

55 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Even going way back, I always liked the simple look (if I had to pick a look).  Tony Kaye on the Big Generator tour with his swiveling mysterious Jetson's looking rig.

I sing lead on some songs, so that's one reason I prefer standing and not being walled in by keyboards.  Like a drummer singing, it's kind of weird when the audience can't easily tell who is doing the vocals imo.   The other reasons being, I don't have roadies, and I already have headaches leveling patches with one or two keyboards!
 

 

Totally agree on the Kaye rig. 2 Yamaha KX76,  I think. 

 

I sing lead and yeah, getting hemmed in with keys is not a good look. Much better to get up to another mic with my Alesis Vortex on, and get moving.

 

I haven't yet found a good solution for stacked boards. I always find on long gigs that an angled upper tier gives me slightly numb fingers if set at a decent height to clear the bottom board. 

 

[Noah DC]

*Just in case anyone is considering going this route, periodic reminder that it is not possible to play sitting down at normal keybed height using Invisible stands with piano slabs that are similar in height to a CP4.*

 

Also, if any Mojo players are interested in the easiest way to add third-tier synth on the cheap, grab a Yamaha Reface CS for $250 and place it on top of your Mojo - setup couldn’t be simpler, keys couldn’t be closer together. You can even pick it up for a keytar solo, if that’s your thing. Behringer Model D also fits up there adjacent to an Arturia Keystep.
 

 

[DJkeys]

2 hours ago, NosPup said:

DJ, How did you get your mic stand connected in that setup?  I've been looking for a good way to do that but havent figured it out yet.

I took part of an old On Stage Mic Adatper (KSA 7575) and filed it down so it would fit in the square metric opening of the 18881. I secured it with some JB Weld.  It is very secure, but is permanent. I then just attached a boom with a quick release sleeve.

 

-dj

[Noah DC]

6 minutes ago, DJKeys said:

I took part of an old On Stage Mic Adatper (KSA 7575) and filed it down so it would fit in the square metric opening of the 18881. I secured it with some JB Weld.  It is very secure, but is permanent. I then just attached a boom with a quick release sleeve.

 

-dj

Great stuff. I'd love to see a post on how you did that - or just a couple close-ups for inspiration. I might give that a try with my 18880...

[DJkeys]

3 minutes ago, Noah DC said:

Great stuff. I'd love to see a post on how you did that - or just a couple close-ups for inspiration. I might give that a try with my 18880...

First I filed down the appropriate part. I then had to basically hammer it in.  I used the JB Weld when it loosened up a few weeks later, since then it does not move and probably will never.  

 

 

[kaptainkeys]

I've always been a vertically close together guy mainly because I don't have a very tall torso, so if the upper board is too high it ends up blocking my face, which some may see as a good thing, but it also means I can't see the audience or the other musicians in the band either.  Recently, I've been playing either single board or L-shaped rigs, the latter of which I like because I get to look around a bit more and it forces me to work on my hand independence and strength.

[Moonglow]

I don’t have Jolly Green Giant-length arms, so I keep it to two keyboards. Probably would keep it to just two, even if I did. I’m 5’8” on a good day, and any more keys would be too tall. Of course, I could set them up perpendicular to the rest of the band, but I prefer to face forward (better view of crowd). I also stack them level, and as close as possible without obstructing view of the screen and access to the main controls of my lower board.

[Stokely]

I haven't done an "L" in a long time.  Some of our stages are too small (case in point, restaurant/bar last weekend where I had a cymbal about six inches from my keyboard.)  Looks cool though!

[Tracii]

I love the look of an L setup, but there are times when I just have to have my right hand on the piano and my left on the Hammond - and vice versa. If I was a better player, maybe I could pull it off. 😇

[erik_nie]

I change patches via my iPad, so no need to access knobs or even view screens.
Got a Nord Wave 2 over a Nord Stage 3 compact.
They are as close together as possible to quickly switch between boards.
Stage is mainly for piano sounds, use modwheel for volume of layer (pad/string) and use the A/B layer to switch sounds in a song.

 

Why do all keyboard have their screen so high, I would put most used functions (knobs/screen) as close to the keyboard as possible to allow stacking....