New Studiologic Numa X Piano

[CyberGene]

22 hours ago, Mins said:

Thank you, your input on mapping midi has made a lot of sense. What about buttons? Do the buttons also send midi messages that can be mapped? 

I'm not at my Numa and won't have chance to test it in the next days but according to the MIDI specifications it can also transmit MIDI messages when those knobs are pressed (for instance to enable/disable the zones), so it should again be a context dependent MIDI CC. But that's for the knobs when pushed as buttons. Also, that's when the  Numa is configured as Common MIDI channel. There are too many variables, so unless I test it directly, don't take my word for granted.

 

22 hours ago, Mins said:

and are you happy with your decision to go with the Numa x?

In one word: yes.

 

But there are some considerations. Some people may remember that I initially ordered a Numa X Piano 88 that I found lukewarm regarding piano sounds, keyboard response, etc. Which I then replaced with a Yamaha CP88 that I was very happy about. But then I sold it and got a Numa X Piano 73 😀

 

With the above paradox in mind, let me explain. I consider myself mostly a classical pianist and a piano aficionado. I have a Yamaha AvantGrand N1X hybrid digital piano with real grand piano action and I'm known on some forums for being really picky about tiny small nuances in everything and how I dislike all digital piano actions except for those in the hybrid pianos since they are real piano actions. I also have made my own DIY MIDI controller from an old grand piano action by designing my own electronics and control software using optical sensors, it's called Cybrid.

 

It's apparent that I'm overly critical about digital pianos and especially about their actions, so you can rarely hear me praising any digital piano 😀 I guess that's what's happened with my first Numa. Besides, it was at firmware 1.0 which is known to have touch response that was a bit off and they improved the touch response in the next firmwares. But I had already sold it.

 

At that time I started playing in an amateur pop/rock band and had to forget about my classical/jazz piano skills which is why I had to lower my expectations and be more tolerant towards digital pianos. The CP88 was a better piano than the Numa X Piano 88 in almost every respect. I used it on a few rehearsals and it was exactly what I needed, however I have disc herniation and problems with my back and I quickly realized the CP88 was too heavy and caused me back aches. Also, it couldn't fit in the trunk of my car (had to lower the back seats). So, I decided to seek a 73-key keyboard that is as light as possible. Hence, the Numa X Piano 73. At that point I was already looking realistically at what I need. It wasn't for classical music at home. It was a stage instrument that I will use for pop/rock music 😉 That's why the Numa X Piano 73 is actually pretty good and I am very happy with it. Hope that helps and apologies for the long post.

[obxa]

10 hours ago, CyberGene said:

I also have made my own DIY MIDI controller from an old grand piano action by designing my own electronics and control software using optical sensors, it's called Cybrid.

Off topic: I  thoroughly enjoyed and totally got lost reading about your Cybrid project!!!   Not sure if you've got an engineering background,  but  total respect for what you've accomplished.   I'd faint at the prospect of such an undertaking.  My skills limited to gutting uprights and grand pianos to make them into shells. 😀   Real pianos that do that is certainly a niche.     When one popped up years ago-  I considered buying Moog's short-lived  piano bar system to retrofit my studio piano.  I've done sessions in some studios that had the Yamaha acoustic diskclavier with Midi output, and it was wonderful... but the price on those are scary.   Anyway, amazing stuff CybeerGene  Честито!

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, obxa said:

Not sure if you've got an engineering background,  but  total respect for what you've accomplished. 

Thank you for the nice words! I studied Engineering Physics in the university but didn’t finish it because I started working as a (self-educated) software engineer during the big boom of the IT industry in Bulgaria in the late 90-s when many European and US companies opened offices here. So, I have some rusty and incomplete engineering background along with software skills and wild piano obsession 😀 Ultimately my DIY project isn’t very well designed but served as an inspiration for other people who created more professional solutions. But it was a lot of fun and gave me something for my mind to work out on for almost two years on and off. 

[CHarrell]

On 7/28/2023 at 11:55 PM, CyberGene said:

I'm not at my Numa and won't have chance to test it in the next days but according to the MIDI specifications it can also transmit MIDI messages when those knobs are pressed (for instance to enable/disable the zones), so it should again be a context dependent MIDI CC. But that's for the knobs when pushed as buttons. Also, that's when the  Numa is configured as Common MIDI channel. There are too many variables, so unless I test it directly, don't take my word for granted.

 

In one word: yes.

 

But there are some considerations. Some people may remember that I initially ordered a Numa X Piano 88 that I found lukewarm regarding piano sounds, keyboard response, etc. Which I then replaced with a Yamaha CP88 that I was very happy about. But then I sold it and got a Numa X Piano 73 😀

 

With the above paradox in mind, let me explain. I consider myself mostly a classical pianist and a piano aficionado. I have a Yamaha AvantGrand N1X hybrid digital piano with real grand piano action and I'm known on some forums for being really picky about tiny small nuances in everything and how I dislike all digital piano actions except for those in the hybrid pianos since they are real piano actions. I also have made my own DIY MIDI controller from an old grand piano action by designing my own electronics and control software using optical sensors, it's called Cybrid.

 

It's apparent that I'm overly critical about digital pianos and especially about their actions, so you can rarely hear me praising any digital piano 😀 I guess that's what's happened with my first Numa. Besides, it was at firmware 1.0 which is known to have touch response that was a bit off and they improved the touch response in the next firmwares. But I had already sold it.

 

At that time I started playing in an amateur pop/rock band and had to forget about my classical/jazz piano skills which is why I had to lower my expectations and be more tolerant towards digital pianos. The CP88 was a better piano than the Numa X Piano 88 in almost every respect. I used it on a few rehearsals and it was exactly what I needed, however I have disc herniation and problems with my back and I quickly realized the CP88 was too heavy and caused me back aches. Also, it couldn't fit in the trunk of my car (had to lower the back seats). So, I decided to seek a 73-key keyboard that is as light as possible. Hence, the Numa X Piano 73. At that point I was already looking realistically at what I need. It wasn't for classical music at home. It was a stage instrument that I will use for pop/rock music 😉 That's why the Numa X Piano 73 is actually pretty good and I am very happy with it. Hope that helps and apologies for the long post.

 

My new YC88 has some faulty keys so I'm gonna have to return it. 😭 Furthermore, living in the city, I'm getting around more and even though I have the muscles for it technically, I think it'd be just too much of a hassle to try and lug that pup around. And so, I might follow similar suit to you, and re-snag a Numa. I got rid of it because it seemed to be causing wrist pain, but dammit, it's so hard finding a good feeling keyboard around 30lbs and featured with controls (I've recently bitten the Pianoteq apple demoing my iPad and I think I'm finally gonna give this software thing a shot). 

 

Maybe I'm a fool returning to my folly, but I also don't remember, how firm feeling is the tp110?

[CHarrell]

I unknowingly auditioned for a band last week and was playing an old QS8 that a guitar player got from his dad...the keys were light but loose and some of the keys either didn't respond or had a wild velocity value...not a pleasant experience 😅. Now my fingers just remember that bed and I'm worried that the Numa would feel like that too. @CyberGene can you give me some reassurance the TP110 feels tight and firm, I'm desperate 😭

[kenheeter]

The TP110 is awesome! I have a YC73 and a Crumar Seven with the TP100 and I prefer playing piano on the Numa X 73 to both of them. I also think it has the best midi controller implementation that I have seen on a stage piano.

 

 

[Brad Kaenel]

Another Numa X 73 owner here, and I think the TP110 is a really fine keybed as well, for piano.  I also have a Viscount Legend '70s Compact which is TP100, so I've A-B'd them and they're each great for what they're intended for.  I find TP100 very good for Rhodes on the L70s, and the TP110 quite excellent for piano on the Numa X.  You won't have to worry about the poor experience with that old QS8; nothing like that.

[CHarrell]

Thank you for all helping a poor sinner's hand.  😭  Just reordered, hope to have it in time for the next trial on Sunday! I'm sure this has been discussed before, what's a good gig bag/case for the 88?

[kanefsky]

24 minutes ago, Brad Kaenel said:

Another Numa X 73 owner here, and I think the TP110 is a really fine keybed as well, for piano.  I also have a Viscount Legend '70s Compact which is TP100, so I've A-B'd them and they're each great for what they're intended for.  I find TP100 very good for Rhodes on the L70s, and the TP110 quite excellent for piano on the Numa X.

 

Interesting.  So your opinion is that the TP100 and TP110 are intended for different purposes, rather than the TP110 simply being a new-and-improved version that would be preferable in all cases (if it were actually available on anything but the Numa X Piano)?

 

[CHarrell]

16 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

 

Interesting.  So your opinion is that the TP100 and TP110 are intended for different purposes, rather than the TP110 simply being a new-and-improved version that would be preferable in all cases (if it were actually available on anything but the Numa X Piano)?

 

 

Small clarification, it is also on Kurzweil's SP7 Grand (the higher tier of SP7 interestingly), but other than that I think we're all waiting for the deluge of TP110 equipped products like SL Studio sequel. 

[kanefsky]

9 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

Small clarification, it is also on Kurzweil's SP7 Grand (the higher tier of SP7 interestingly), but other than that I think we're all waiting for the deluge of TP110 equipped products like SL Studio sequel. 

 

Thanks.  I didn't know about that one.

[obxa]

3 hours ago, kenheeter said:

The TP110 is awesome! I have a YC73 and a Crumar Seven with the TP100 and I prefer playing piano on the Numa X 73 to both of them. I also think it has the best midi controller implementation that I have seen on a stage piano.

Truth be told:   when  shopping for a 73 note controller, I looked for alternatives to the Yamaha p-121 , which was out of stock.   I was set to  buy  Studiologic 's 73 as a bottom controller to drive a Nord Compact situated above.   Because of this thread,  found about the Numa X73.   I figured  it's always best to have something that can make noise on its own, and worth it for a little more cost .    I've since gotten very used to the Numa Action (and it's sounds).   

 

Just finished  another long string of smooth jazz gigs that had couple weeks rehearsal on real Rhodes MkII. Had all intentions of dragging the beast out, but due to travel restrictions, went with the Numa.   It actually worked out great as a responsive Rhodes sub (after doing some 1:1 tweaking on the sounds).  My (old) hands also felt much better - had forgotten how much of a beating a real Rhodes action can be with long rehearsals. 

 

Forgot: Sat in for R&B band set  on  friend's P-125/Roland Vr 09  rig last Sunday night.  Yikes!!    If the P-121 action (or sounds) are the same, really happy  I didn't go that route.  

 

 

[obxa]

On the negative side.....

 

Ok so I mostly love the Numa.   Super happy with AP/EP sounds on IEM gigs & shows, and the way it very nicely translates in the Hi-fI house PAs.

 

 My only ongoing frustration  is small format (trio/solo) gigs,  when using a Bose stick.    Rhodes always sounds great, but still not happy with  AP sounds.   I'm guessing it might be time to look at other amp options.   My old Yamaha slab pianos always sounded decent through the Bose, but there is something about the Modeling and Line array that doesn't work.    I've made mono patches,  EQ  and other tweaks, still not happy.

 

 I know AP sounds are always the achilles heel, curious if anyone has had success with anything for low-volume gigs that's worked well with the Numa???  Again this is for low-impact musical wallpaper gigs.    QSC seem to be the default around here. Also curious about some of the cheaper options (EV, Alto etc.). THANKS!

[kanefsky]

I'm curious how something like the TP110 or even the TP400W feels compared to the action on the latest Rhodes MK8 or the Vintage Vibe.  The MK8 keys actually come from Kluge Klaviaturen, the same company that makes Steinway acoustic piano keys.

[CHarrell]

19 minutes ago, obxa said:

but there is something about the Modeling and Line array that doesn't work .I've done mono patches, and EQ tweaks.

 

Did the parameters like duplex resonance etc. make any difference at all?

[obxa]

1 minute ago, CHarrell said:

Did the parameters like duplex resonance etc. make any difference at all?

I've tweaked those to death. Normally default to keeping them really low or off in most patches.   Did tweaks with that  Bose L1 compact in my studio  with those parameters,  also pulling the reverb down.   Funny thing is I was facing the Bose about 6 feet away and it actually sounded  pretty good.    But last solo cocktail gig (outdoors) with it behind me same distance, no joy.   Got an indoor quartet gig next Sunday afternoon with two identical  Bose sticks (sax player's) I'll see if stereo makes any difference.  

 

As per normal around here,  throwing a credit card at the problem might be the only solution. 😀

[kenheeter]

I've never cared for those Bose systems for keyboards.

 

[ewall08530]

4 hours ago, kenheeter said:

I've never cared for those Bose systems for keyboards.

 

Some keyboards are not a good match.  Luckily my Casio PX S-7000 sounds wonderful in a Bose Pro 8.  
A Yamaha P-125 that I sold last year did not.  

[obxa]

Thanks Ewall and Ken- I didn't want to pollute this thread, so started another one.

  I'd love if you share  your thoughts there.

C

 

[Brad Kaenel]

11 hours ago, kanefsky said:

 

Interesting.  So your opinion is that the TP100 and TP110 are intended for different purposes, rather than the TP110 simply being a new-and-improved version that would be preferable in all cases (if it were actually available on anything but the Numa X Piano)?

 

Is it rude to quote myself?  Here’s what I said back on Page 21:

https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/180089-new-studiologic-numa-x-piano/?do=findComment&comment=2920746

 

Yes, my opinion is that TP100 was likely intended more as an EP action, but was implemented by manufacturers for APs because of its lighter weight than TP40.  But both of these now have their successors, so perhaps they won’t be used in new designs.

[CyberGene]

14 hours ago, CHarrell said:

'm worried that the Numa would feel like that too. @CyberGene can you give me some reassurance the TP110 feels tight and firm, I'm desperate 😭

The other guys already said it but I can confirm: the TP-110 is tight and firm. I think the action in the CP88 is slightly heavier, especially as static weight (which is something I didn't like BTW) but other than that they have similar inertia. I'd say the TP-110 is slightly lighter as action but not by much. But on a scale I'd say the TP-110 is within the heavy zone. However it's not sluggish and unpleasant as the TP-100LR that I hated.

 

As to piano sounds and amplification. It's funny that on headphones (Sennheiser HD650-s) I found the CP88 having a slight edge with its piano sounds that are more polished, refined and well mapped in terms of touch to sound, however where we rehearse there's an expensive stereo PA with mixer and the Numa surprisingly sounds better than the CP88. I haven't compared them side by side since I sold the Yamaha before getting the Numa but I remember the CP88 had a slightly heavy bottom end in its acoustic pianos whereas the Numa is spot on, it almost gives me the impression of playing a real acoustic piano in that rehearsal room. I'm saying this only to focus on how it's all about amp, speakers, etc. I guess it's the EQ that determines how we perceive a sound that we all know, the acoustic piano.

 

P.S. BTW, I downloaded and installed all the optional pianos from their website and found that the "C-183 Japan" is really great. I also find the one that comes preinstalled "Model C 2013 Japan Grand" also really well balanced in the rehearsal room. There are many sample, so if you find the piano sound not very good on particular set of speakers/amp, it's worth it to go through all the pianos since they have very different signatures and EQ-ing.

[stoken6]

15 hours ago, Brad Kaenel said:

I find TP100 very good for Rhodes on the L70s, and the TP110 quite excellent for piano on the Numa X

 

14 hours ago, kanefsky said:

So your opinion is that the TP100 and TP110 are intended for different purposes, rather than the TP110 simply being a new-and-improved version that would be preferable in all cases

I suspect that the TP100 wasn't designed from the outset as a Rhodes-like action. It was more like "make something light to compete with Yamaha and Casio!" "Here, this feels horrible, will that do?" "It's fine, ship it"

 

I'm looking forward to trying the TP110.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Adan]

14 hours ago, obxa said:

 

 I know AP sounds are always the achilles heel, curious if anyone has had success with anything for low-volume gigs that's worked well with the Numa???  Again this is for low-impact musical wallpaper gigs.    QSC seem to be the default around here. Also curious about some of the cheaper options (EV, Alto etc.). THANKS!

I'm using a pair of Mackie Thump "Gos", the 8" battery powered ones.  Sounds quite good.  Reasonably warm, piano-like sound.  They're not super loud, but loud enough for most bars or restaurants.  In most cases I don't strictly need battery power, but I got them for situations where I do (and where I wouldn't use the Numa, which is not battery).  But it's nice have 2 fewer things to plug in. Simpler logistics makes wallpaper piano gigs that much more tolerable.

[CHarrell]

5 hours ago, stoken6 said:

I suspect that the TP100 wasn't designed from the outset as a Rhodes-like action. It was more like "make something light to compete with Yamaha and Casio!" "Here, this feels horrible, will that do?" "It's fine, ship it"

 

This is from a country that gave us Mussolini then Claudia Cardinale, we should expect they know how to right previous wrongs.

[CHarrell]

9 hours ago, CyberGene said:

As to piano sounds and amplification. It's funny that on headphones (Sennheiser HD650-s) I found the CP88 having a slight edge with its piano sounds that are more polished, refined and well mapped in terms of touch to sound, however where we rehearse there's an expensive stereo PA with mixer and the Numa surprisingly sounds better than the CP88. I

 

I can't remember if I tested my original Numa out with my Spacestation, but you're describing my experience with the CP and YC. The electric pianos sound amazing amplified, but the pianos can have a very dull sound. Strangely, adjusting the velocity settings actually made them sound better? Also, in headphones I think the Pianoteq Rhodes Mk2 sound iffy and way too tine-y (using the demo currently so can't change many parameters), but amplified it sounds beautiful.

[obxa]

31 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

I can't remember if I tested my original Numa out with my Spacestation, but you're describing my experience with the CP and YC. The electric pianos sound amazing amplified, but the pianos can have a very dull sound. Strangely, adjusting the velocity settings actually made them sound better? Also, in headphones I think the Pianoteq Rhodes Mk2 sound iffy and way too tine-y (using the demo currently so can't change many parameters), but amplified it sounds beautiful.

Mentioned earlier had been rehearsing on a real Rhodes for a couple of weeks before I needed to change plans..  Was playing it through a relatively cheap Squire  amp, yet still sounded great.  It's often been said when Fender was building them, Rhodes were set up on Fender Twins.   Those amps became the standard gig set for many back in the day.

 

Something about that sound works great in mono, and doesn't need to be Hi-Fi.    When putting together Rhodes  patches on the Numa, I ran it side by side through the same amp so I could match it better to the real Rhodes sounds I had gotten so used to.     It ended up working great live, and in my IEMs.......after you turn down the ridiculous pedal noise of course!

[CHarrell]

3 minutes ago, obxa said:

after you turn down the ridiculous pedal noise of course!

 

Why, keyboard manufacturers, why?? 😭Turning down the pedal noise is the first thing I have to do with practically every piano sound that features it.

[CyberGene]

I mentioned to Gianni about the overly loud pedal noises and he explained that this is mostly an issue with the switch type of pedal that comes with the non-GT models. The half-pedal produces gradual values from which the speed of pressing the pedal can be devised and so the loud noises are only for very fast kicks of the pedal. And the switch generates the max value. He said they may change the behavior. BTW, the Roland DP10 works as a half-pedal, although it requires setting it as a different type depending on whether you’re playing an acoustic piano sound or electric which defeats the purpose (also reported to Studiologic and they may fix that behavior) and indeed with a half-pedal the noises are much more natural. 

[CHarrell]

22 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

I mentioned to Gianni about the overly loud pedal noises and he explained that this is mostly an issue with the switch type of pedal that comes with the non-GT models. The half-pedal produces gradual values from which the speed of pressing the pedal can be devised and so the loud noises are only for very fast kicks of the pedal. And the switch generates the max value. He said they may change the behavior. BTW, the Roland DP10 works as a half-pedal, although it requires setting it as a different type depending on whether you’re playing an acoustic piano sound or electric which defeats the purpose (also reported to Studiologic and they may fix that behavior) and indeed with a half-pedal the noises are much more natural. 

 

That's one thing I've really liked about Studiologic too, just seeing how actively they support their instruments...they're still updating the Compact series that came out 5 years ago! That was something that really drew me to their corner.

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, obxa said:

Mentioned earlier had been rehearsing on a real Rhodes for a couple of weeks before I needed to change plans...Something about that sound works great in mono

The Rhodes was a mono instrument, the only stereo would come from effects.