Playing with guitarists and the theory disconnect....

[The Real MC]

I played in bands where bass players didn't know their scales and play notes (quarter notes or longer) that were not musically correct) Example, using an F instead of an F Sharp in the key of G.

 

You mean this guy?

 

BASS PLAYER AVAILABLE FOR PAYING GIGS ONLY. I PLAY G, C, D. IF YOUR

SONGS ARE NOT IN G, PLEASE TRANSPOSE THEM INTO G. IF YOUR SONG HAS AN

EM OR BM OR ANYTHING OFF THE WALL I WILL PROBABLY SIT OUT THAT CHORD.

OR I COULD LEARN THOSE NOTES FOR $30 EACH. IF YOU WANT ME TO DO FANCY

STUFF LIKE GO BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN G AND D WHILE YOU HOLD A G CHORD,

FORGET IT BECAUSE I"M A 'POCKET' PLAYER.

 

MINIMUM $100 PER GIG WITHIN A 5 MILE RADIUS OF 37204. $5 PER MILE TRAVEL

CHARGE FOR OTHER AREAS OUT OF TOWN.

 

PLEASE MAKE SURE YOUR GIGS ARE ON A METRO NASHVILLE BUS ROUTE, OR YOU CAN

PICK ME UP AT MY PLACE. MUST BE HOME BY 11 PM DUE TO PREVIOUS LEGAL HASSLES.

 

NO GIGS WITHIN 500 YARDS OF SCHOOLS, PARKS, OR PLAYGROUNDS.

[GovernorSilver]

 

I enjoyed that Barry Harris analysis more than I was expecting - thanks for posting.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

My pleasure! The videos on Barry's 6th Diminished scale(s) put up by the pianists are great, but it's nice to get Robbie Barnby's perspective as well since he addresses some issues with adapting the harmonic concepts to guitar and demonstrates his understanding of the material with excellent playing.

[Docbop]

Most know the old Bebopper and Jazz masters in general if you asked a question they will play you an answer if they answer at all. This was because you ears are everything to them. Now later on talking to older Jazz cats who did hang with some of those old masters also explained why they played answers to questions. That was so no matter what school of theory you might know or level of theory you studied if you heard an answer you could interpret it into whatever school of theory you're familiar with.

 

Also from working in a Jazz school and hanging in a lot of clinics and seminars seen a lot of old name Jazz cats come up with some crazy pseudo theory to explain things. They felt they were in a school with all these students they can't just say listen MF just listen. They knew a handful of theory terms they would throw around. Now other Masters when you watch there masterclass videos they tend avoid theoretical answers and mainly play. As they see the world if you can't hear you can't play it.

[confidence]

I don't play guitar at all, although I have a general idea how it works from playing with people who do, arranging etc. Can someone explain to me what is meant by a guitarist playing "in the box" as people have mentioned in this thread?

[GovernorSilver]

Most know the old Bebopper and Jazz masters in general if you asked a question they will play you an answer if they answer at all. This was because you ears are everything to them. Now later on talking to older Jazz cats who did hang with some of those old masters also explained why they played answers to questions. That was so no matter what school of theory you might know or level of theory you studied if you heard an answer you could interpret it into whatever school of theory you're familiar with.

 

One of my mentors in university advised I get the Slonimsky book. His first records were issued in the 70s, so he probably does not qualify as an "old bebop master". What I know for sure is he is a damn funny guy. I don't recall him ever stating an opinion on Berklee school vs. George Russel school vs. Barry Harris school or whatever. He temporarily took over the jazz ensemble class at the uni, which was normally taught and directed by a professor who was a couple of decades older. This other professor was old enough to have played with Duke Ellington, and yes he did.

 

I briefly met that gentleman once - but I don't think he was a "just learn it all through listening" type of teacher. He came across as someone who was really hands on with his students, no matter how large the class was - someone who cared deeply that they understood what he wanted to teach, rather than the "if you didn't learn in by hearing it, you ain't getting it - too bad, so sad" kind of attitude.

 

Neither guy had the attitude of this other fellow on another forum, who tries to disrupt any Barry Harris talk because he thinks people should study George Russell's stuff instead. I think people should be allowed to learn from whatever sources they want.

[El Lobo]

I don't play guitar at all, although I have a general idea how it works from playing with people who do, arranging etc. Can someone explain to me what is meant by a guitarist playing "in the box" as people have mentioned in this thread?

It just means that the guitarist is playing notes in a pattern on the fretboard that form a box. On a guitar fretboard, this box pattern can be moved up and down to go with chord changes or to move a solo to another place. Many guitarists first learn these box patterns before they know what the notes are or any theory that goes with the pattern. So some guitarists can be described as just playing "in the box" without knowing anything else about what they're doing and why. In a way, it's similar to learning to play one pentatonic scale over all the chord changes in a blues.

 

https://robinmayguitar.com/blogs/lead-guitar/posts/scale-box-positions

"As guitarists we tend to regard scales as patterns that can be moved up and down the neck depending on which key we're playing in. We refer to these movable patterns as boxes or box positions."

[Tom Williams]

They felt they were in a school with all these students they can't just say listen MF just listen.

 

I know how to sing mezzo forte, but how does one do that listening? I guess I cover my ears when it gets too loud....

[Baldwin Funster]

I don't play guitar at all, although I have a general idea how it works from playing with people who do, arranging etc. Can someone explain to me what is meant by a guitarist playing "in the box" as people have mentioned in this thread?

It just means that the guitarist is playing notes in a pattern on the fretboard that form a box. On a guitar fretboard, this box pattern can be moved up and down to go with chord changes or to move a solo to another place. Many guitarists first learn these box patterns before they know what the notes are or any theory that goes with the pattern. So some guitarists can be described as just playing "in the box" without knowing anything else about what they're doing and why. In a way, it's similar to learning to play one pentatonic scale over all the chord changes in a blues.

 

https://robinmayguitar.com/blogs/lead-guitar/posts/scale-box-positions

"As guitarists we tend to regard scales as patterns that can be moved up and down the neck depending on which key we're playing in. We refer to these movable patterns as boxes or box positions."

Yeah I dont think I ever got away from playing in the box. I just eventually found bigger boxes.

[GovernorSilver]

Can someone explain to me what is meant by a guitarist playing "in the box" as people have mentioned in this thread?

 

I won't repeat the answers already posted, as they're good enough.

 

I will however comment that there are a plethora of guitar lessons to be found on the web (Youtube, etc.) on how to break out of the box. I get the impression the "box" has served as a reliable source of income for many guitar teachers.

[El Lobo]

Yeah I dont think I ever got away from playing in the box. I just eventually found bigger boxes.

Y'know, I think that's how we develop on any instrument â our boxes get bigger. I'm a pretty good sax player but a hack on keyboard. Then sometimes when I'm playing or trying to work out how to play a tune, all of sudden I realize the box I was in got bigger and I can do something I couldn't do before. It's a satisfying experience.

[confidence]

I don't play guitar at all, although I have a general idea how it works from playing with people who do, arranging etc. Can someone explain to me what is meant by a guitarist playing "in the box" as people have mentioned in this thread?

It just means that the guitarist is playing notes in a pattern on the fretboard that form a box. On a guitar fretboard, this box pattern can be moved up and down to go with chord changes or to move a solo to another place. Many guitarists first learn these box patterns before they know what the notes are or any theory that goes with the pattern. So some guitarists can be described as just playing "in the box" without knowing anything else about what they're doing and why. In a way, it's similar to learning to play one pentatonic scale over all the chord changes in a blues.

 

https://robinmayguitar.com/blogs/lead-guitar/posts/scale-box-positions

"As guitarists we tend to regard scales as patterns that can be moved up and down the neck depending on which key we're playing in. We refer to these movable patterns as boxes or box positions."

 

Thanks! I had no idea about all that. Seems like a lot of trouble to go to compared to just knowing where the notes are on your instrument like anybody else.

[GovernorSilver]

Thanks! I had no idea about all that. Seems like a lot of trouble to go to compared to just knowing where the notes are on your instrument like anybody else.

 

Robbie Barnby (see video posted earlier) would not be able to adapt Barry Harris concepts to his guitar, let alone explain them or demonstrate them, if he didn't know where the notes happen to be on his guitar.

[Baldwin Funster]

I don't play guitar at all, although I have a general idea how it works from playing with people who do, arranging etc. Can someone explain to me what is meant by a guitarist playing "in the box" as people have mentioned in this thread?

It just means that the guitarist is playing notes in a pattern on the fretboard that form a box. On a guitar fretboard, this box pattern can be moved up and down to go with chord changes or to move a solo to another place. Many guitarists first learn these box patterns before they know what the notes are or any theory that goes with the pattern. So some guitarists can be described as just playing "in the box" without knowing anything else about what they're doing and why. In a way, it's similar to learning to play one pentatonic scale over all the chord changes in a blues.

 

https://robinmayguitar.com/blogs/lead-guitar/posts/scale-box-positions

"As guitarists we tend to regard scales as patterns that can be moved up and down the neck depending on which key we're playing in. We refer to these movable patterns as boxes or box positions."

 

Thanks! I had no idea about all that. Seems like a lot of trouble to go to compared to just knowing where the notes are on your instrument like anybody else.

It's not that many or most decent guitar players dont know the names and locations of chords and notes, it's just that "the box" is a way of quickly visualizing where everything is in relation to everything else. If you are going to play rock or blues all the stylistic guitarisms are in the box. You are really handicapped in trying to play those styles without it. However jazz lies outside the box and it's hard to visualize jazz things if you are used to seeing the fretboard from the box perspective. I've never posted the word the box so many times in my life. The box, the box, the BOXXX.

[El Lobo]

Thanks! I had no idea about all that. Seems like a lot of trouble to go to compared to just knowing where the notes are on your instrument like anybody else.

The thing about guitar (and other stringed instruments) is that the same note can be played in several different places and strings on the guitar neck, with different tonalities and other note characteristics in each place. So "just knowing where the notes are on your instrument like anybody else" is more complicated than knowing that on a keyboard. Box patterns are a convenient way to learn where the notes are that you want to use. Ideally, guitar and bass players learn the names of the notes and all the places they are on the fretboard, but many blues/rock players still depend on the box patterns they learned first to know where they can go on the fretboard. I can do a credible solo on guitar without knowing anything about which notes I'm playing. I can also do a credible solo on keyboard but I can see the notes I'm playing and hear where they are in relation to other notes so I know what the notes are that I'm playing. I can also solo on sax but at this point in my development I don't need to know where the notes are or what the notes are â it's more like a direct connection between my brain and my fingers, same as for well-developed keys players. I can turn my mind off and just play. My fingers know where to go without me telling them anything.

[Docbop]

I don't play guitar at all, although I have a general idea how it works from playing with people who do, arranging etc. Can someone explain to me what is meant by a guitarist playing "in the box" as people have mentioned in this thread?

 

IG audio is mute by default so be sure to raise the volume a bit.

 

Demo of of thinking outside the box.

 

..

[GovernorSilver]

On another forum, there's a guitar teacher who insisted reading music, especially music by JS Bach, was all that's needed to learn notes on the guitar fretboard.

 

He's kind of correct in that when guitarists first learn, say, a few bars of Partita in B Minor, they have to find where, say, F#, B, and so on are on the neck. Fretboard note learning does happen at this stage.

 

He just couldn't understand that once I'd memorized a Bach melody or whatever - the sound as well as how I wanted to play it on the fretboard - I would just be playing it from memory, and not hunting for notes by name on the fretboard anymore.

[confidence]

Thanks! I had no idea about all that. Seems like a lot of trouble to go to compared to just knowing where the notes are on your instrument like anybody else.

The thing about guitar (and other stringed instruments) is that the same note can be played in several different places and strings on the guitar neck, with different tonalities and other note characteristics in each place. So "just knowing where the notes are on your instrument like anybody else" is more complicated than knowing that on a keyboard. Box patterns are a convenient way to learn where the notes are that you want to use. Ideally, guitar and bass players learn the names of the notes and all the places they are on the fretboard, but many blues/rock players still depend on the box patterns they learned first to know where they can go on the fretboard. I can do a credible solo on guitar without knowing anything about which notes I'm playing. I can also do a credible solo on keyboard but I can see the notes I'm playing and hear where they are in relation to other notes so I know what the notes are that I'm playing. I can also solo on sax but at this point in my development I don't need to know where the notes are or what the notes are â it's more like a direct connection between my brain and my fingers, same as for well-developed keys players. I can turn my mind off and just play. My fingers know where to go without me telling them anything.

 

Yeah, I get it and I think I had a general idea that guitarists think this way, even though I didn't know the specifics.

 

Not sure about other stringed instruments though. I actually played the violin as a kid to a high level - had to decide which to specialise in when looking at music college and chose piano. The relationship of the instrument to knowledge of notes and theory was much the same as piano as far as I can remember. Yeah, I could play a D major scale just up the D string changing positions, or I could swap over to the A string half way up. But I still knew it was a D major scale, what all the notes were and where they fit into the various theoretical patterns with other notes.

 

I suspect it's got more to do with what a PP said about a lot of people coming to the guitar from an unschooled folk mentality background, whereas people tend to come to the piano (and violin) from having lessons as a kid taught by classically educated teachers.

[El Lobo]

Yeah, I get it and I think I had a general idea that guitarists think this way, even though I didn't know the specifics.

 

Not sure about other stringed instruments though. I actually played the violin as a kid to a high level - had to decide which to specialise in when looking at music college and chose piano. The relationship of the instrument to knowledge of notes and theory was much the same as piano as far as I can remember. Yeah, I could play a D major scale just up the D string changing positions, or I could swap over to the A string half way up. But I still knew it was a D major scale, what all the notes were and where they fit into the various theoretical patterns with other notes.

 

I suspect it's got more to do with what a PP said about a lot of people coming to the guitar from an unschooled folk mentality background, whereas people tend to come to the piano (and violin) from having lessons as a kid taught by classically educated teachers.

You're replying to my post and politely disagreeing with my comment about other stringed instruments. I agree with your disagreement. I came to guitar from an unschooled/self taught folk background. I started on uke as a kid and tenor guitar, then got a 6 string Kay (steel strings), then a Goya classic nylon string guitar, then banjo and autoharp and other things. I also had clarinet lessons as a child so I could read (single note) sheet music so I understood music notation and sharps and flats, etc. I played guitar in some folk music groups as a teen, then sax and rhythm guitar in rock bands for several years. I've known lots of guitar players over the years, some very successful ones, and I think all of them came to guitar through learning by themselves or by being shown things by other guitar players so they start out learning box positions on guitar. People who learn other instruments like violin, clarinet, sax, trumpet, piano start from a different place to learn to play their instruments so they tend to know where D is on their instrument and how to play a D scale where guitarists can get fairly far without knowing the names of the notes they're playing and how to play a D scale. I certainly didn't and I was playing rhythm guitar in a regionally popular and successful band that recorded and toured. But when I played sax I knew how to play a D scale and I knew where all the D's were on my horn. Same for when I started to play keyboard in a blues/rock band. I knew what and where all the notes were, what they were named, and I could play a D scale. So I think it's true that many guitarists learn their instrument in a different way than most other players learn their instruments.

[GovernorSilver]

Yeah, I get it and I think I had a general idea that guitarists think this way, even though I didn't know the specifics.

 

Not sure about other stringed instruments though. I actually played the violin as a kid to a high level - had to decide which to specialise in when looking at music college and chose piano. The relationship of the instrument to knowledge of notes and theory was much the same as piano as far as I can remember. Yeah, I could play a D major scale just up the D string changing positions, or I could swap over to the A string half way up. But I still knew it was a D major scale, what all the notes were and where they fit into the various theoretical patterns with other notes.

 

I suspect it's got more to do with what a PP said about a lot of people coming to the guitar from an unschooled folk mentality background, whereas people tend to come to the piano (and violin) from having lessons as a kid taught by classically educated teachers.

 

I also play some violin and viola, although I took up viola as an adult, and later got an electric violin.

 

Violin/viola also has the problem of most notes having more than one possible location on the fingerboard, as you are probably aware. I recently had a discussion with a friend who, unlike me, has more extensive violin playing experience, dating from childhood. I was complaining about some Bach music I was reading having position and fingering numbers that made no sense to me. He sympathized and reassured me that it's ok to ignore number indicators that don't make sense. No telling what mistakes can be made in the process of copying the music, editing it for printing, printing it, etc.

 

While you did say "general", I can assure you that not all guitarists think the same way. Otherwise, there wouldn't be repeated debates among guitarists about whether CAGED ( a box-based pedagogical approach ) belongs in proper guitar education or not, whether reading music has any value, whether one should invest time learning licks from one's heroes or is it a waste of time, what is the best way to practice scales, etc. Successful pro guitarists - generally... the ones who didn't luck into a music career by being part of a rock or pop act - put in the time to systematically drill the names of all the notes on the fretboard, as well as all triad inversions in sets of 3 strings.

[El Lobo]

Successful pro guitarists - generally... the ones who didn't luck into a music career by being part of a rock or pop act - put in the time to systematically drill the names of all the notes on the fretboard, as well as all triad inversions in sets of 3 strings.

I know guitarists like that. Here's my friend Jim Nichols who always knows where he is on the fretboard and what the notes are.

[GovernorSilver]

Jim Nicols is an excellent player.

 

Here is a player I personally know, that he knows the notes on the fretboard. Like other pro guitarists, he recorded, played gigs, and toured a lot before March 2020. Afterwards, he started a Youtube channel. As a bandleader, he communicates his musical ideas to his musicians with sheet music in standard notation.

 

 

 

[video:youtube]

[Threadslayer]

Nice. I love to watch guys who can play with such economy of motion in their hands. Sign of an experienced pro.

[MikeT156]

Quick someone put up the NO STAIRWAY sign!

 

 

Mike T.

[GovernorSilver]

Quick someone put up the NO STAIRWAY sign!

 

 

Mike T.

 

If you can play like Anthony though you get a free pass.

 

Also, I thought Frank Zappa's cover of that tune was brilliant. He had his horn section play Jimmy Page's solo.

 

[video:youtube]

 

Zappa and Mike Keneally both knew where the notes were on their guitars. Keneally went on to write the arrangements for Steely Damned, the Steely Dan cover band in San Diego, among many other things.

[CowboyNQ]

I play with guitarists of both stripes - a couple who can instantly name any note on the fretboard (one in particular is a music theory monster) and a couple others who need to 'work it out' for a few seconds.

 

In the world of rock covers I inhabit it makes little difference to the experience of playing with them. They"re all excellent at what they do.

 

I"m sure I"ve said it somewhere here before - although it is nice to have a common language when you"re trying to work out parts of a song, music theory knowledge is very low on my list of 'what makes a great colleague'.

[vonnor]

Had my first rehearsal last night with a new project and thought about this thread. Can't remember the song but it was a "no-keys" guitar cover that I was familiar with but had not played before. They wanted me to do a laid-back comp over the guitar so I asked the guitar player before the count, "What key?" He replied "D." Basic 1-4-5 pattern but soon as I hit the 1st chord I knew I was off. I made the correction shaking my head to myself. After the song was over I leaned over to the guitar player and was like, "Just for the record, that was in G."

 

He was like, "Oh... well the first chord is "D."

 

smh

 

~ vonnor

[Delaware Dave]

My guitar player once told me that if you want him to turn down just throw sheet music up on a stand and ask him to play the lead from that.....

[bennyray]

That is about right back in the day they use to tell if the guitar is too loud you're too old.

[EscapeRocks]

Had my first rehearsal last night with a new project and thought about this thread. Can't remember the song but it was a "no-keys" guitar cover that I was familiar with but had not played before. They wanted me to do a laid-back comp over the guitar so I asked the guitar player before the count, "What key?" He replied "D." Basic 1-4-5 pattern but soon as I hit the 1st chord I knew I was off. I made the correction shaking my head to myself. After the song was over I leaned over to the guitar player and was like, "Just for the record, that was in G."

 

He was like, "Oh... well the first chord is "D."

 

smh

 

~ vonnor

 

 

Ask him what key Sweet Home Alabama is in :D

[vonnor]

Ask him what key Sweet Home Alabama is in...

Fuck, Dave...

I don't even know what key Sweet Home Alabama is in.

 

~ bill