At the breaking point for live rig size

[stoken6]

I know what you guys mean. I had to cut down my rig at a certain point.

Rob, you pioneered gigging with a Mac *desktop*! No reliability problems, right?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[stoken6]

I feel the difference between 2 and 3 keyboards is huge

This. And it's why we obsess about gear so much. For many of us, one board is too few (need piano and organ actions), and three is too shleppy (the OP's Seaboard aside).

 

So two boards need to cover pianos (AP, EP, Clav and the like), organs (tonewheel, perhaps transistor), ROMpler/orchestral, polysynth (so programmable filters and envelopes), monosynth (portamento) - and have the ability to successfully control them simultaneously.

 

Hence the need for MIDI control, splits, and things like "I want this footswitch to control sustain on my piano patch, AND switch rotary on my tonewheel, BUT not affect my monosynth".

[CowboyNQ]

Really cool thread and bravo to Eric for bringing this discussion to the fore.

 

There"s a lot to be said for having a rig that can be downsized or upsized as circumstances dictate, I reckon.

[Mykhailo]

Oh, to be young and strong again.

 

http://hotrodmotm.com/images/gallery/pile_of_keys.jpg

 

http://hotrodmotm.com/images/gallery/back_line.jpg

 

man, that is some serious tonnage...leads me to thinking again about the beauty of being able to get it done with just one instrument. It"s no secret that I"m a huge, huge fan of Steve Nieve from the Attractions, who clearly has a lot of gear on stage these days, but my favourite clips of him are those early gigs on the cusp of the post-punk scene where he was just rocking the Vox and nothing else.

 

It"s super rare, but I love the few gigs I get asked to do where I get to play just organ, or just synth. It"s not just that the set up/load out is easier, it"s that focusing on just one instrument pushes me to deeper levels as a player. (as I write this, I"m listening to Coltrane"s 'favourite things' and thinking 'you can do a lot with just one tone!')

 

Cool pic though!

[SamuelBLupowitz]

It"s super rare, but I love the few gigs I get asked to do where I get to play just organ, or just synth. It"s not just that the set up/load out is easier, it"s that focusing on just one instrument pushes me to deeper levels as a player. (as I write this, I"m listening to Coltrane"s 'favourite things' and thinking 'you can do a lot with just one tone!')

This is part of the push/pull for me, too -- finding the balance between "behold my awesome sonic palette" and "how creative can I be, how many roles can I fill, with the capabilities of just one instrument?" The needs of my projects, and my own preferences and enthusiasm at any given time, push me back and forth on this. It's not dissimilar from the choice between one board or many for me, since covering four sounds on four different keyboards is a very different experience for me creatively than covering those same sounds on one board loaded with the equivalent samples. Definitely something I'm taking stock of for when I return to gigging post-Covid (there's going to be a post-Covid one day, right?) since I was getting a little burned out on my load-in/load-out myself.

[Delaware Dave]

I've been chasing this issue for a few years; it's one of the reasons I purchased the PC3 in the first place so that I could gig with one keyboard; it has a SW keybed so that I could play organ, piano and synths, all being compromised to some degree but yet playable. That part worked out; I am so used to the TP-8 keybed that I don't even think about the keybed when playing any of those emulations. I use to bring a 2nd keyboard as a backup (in case the PC3 went down, knock on wood it never has) leaving the backup in the car. At some point I wasn't pleased with the KB3 organ/leslie so I started using the Voce, which required a leslie sim so then I started using the Vent; then at some point, since I was bringing a 2nd keyboard as a backup, I figured that i might as well use it so I ended up back to two keyboards; then the Gemini module came around and it was a total upgrade to all instruments so I started using that; the Gemini requires a controller for drawbars, C/V and percussion. Rather than programming all of that into my PC3 for control purposes it just made sense to use the Voce MIDI drawbars. So over the course of a couple of years I went from my old GEM Equinox 88 (72 pounds) and GEM Equinox 76 key (37 pounds), Motion Sound Pro3T/Low Pro for the leslie and an old KB300 keyboard amp (81 pounds), to the PC3 with an EV speaker (heaven from a connection point of view); then back to 2 keyboards and a Gemini module with a Voce MIDI drawbar unit and the Vent for the leslie sim. Doesn't seem like a lot but when you factor in that each one has its own power supply, each one has its own audio connection, MIDI cables, footswitches, mixers, etc. I can't seem to get my setup done in under 30 minutes. I've been fighting this for several years. With COVID and small gigs I've been using the PC3 and Voce/Vent. I prewire everything and place this in a carry bag; this has cut my setup time back to about 15 minutes. Sound from my point of view is compromised but from an audience point of view they don't know the difference.

[Mykhailo]

I think a PC3 and a vent would be a mighty fine sounding rig that could easily get you through any situation, and just my two cents, nobody other than yourself would ever notice the difference between the KB3 leslie sim, and the vent, so if you wanted to make life super simple, you could get by with just the PC3.

[CEB]

It"s the drive not the swirlies.

[KuruPrionz]

I have a few rules.

 

Everything I use at the gig must be transported in one trip, this includes some sort of backpack (usually a guitar gig bag), and a smaller medium-duty folding dolly.

 

Everything I use at the gig must fit in the trunk of my car. This has varied from a Subaru Impreza to an 88 Oldsmobile sedan. Over time the load has shrunk a bit, solid state amps are more reliable than tube amps (because tubes do not last forever), so I don't need a backup amp.

 

I will help pack in, set up, tear down and pack out our reasonably small PA system that the singer brings. The old school 1-15" 2 way JBL mains do weigh a ton, one person cannot safely hoist them onto and off of the speaker stands.

 

Drummers are insane and are on their own.

[Delaware Dave]

It"s the drive not the swirlies.

Actually the drive on KB3 is decent. So is the organ tone. underperformers:

1) C/V

2) Leslie sim

3) percussion is routed through the C/V

4) KB3 supports only 1 manual; can't have a split manual or a dual manual unless the 2nd manual is a VAST organ as opposed to the physically modeled organ of KB3. Issue with VAST organs are that the notes aren't phased locked. VAST organ is best used in the lower manual comping

 

All that being said I have a fairly decent internal leslie using a double leslie effect. I also have a split manual using KB3 on top and VAST organ on bottom; both work in a split manual environment and dual manual environment. A vent or GSI Burn also fix the leslie sim.

[MathOfInsects]

I love gigs where I get to use "all" my keys, but hate gigs where I have to bring them. My rig is designed for quick set-up and tear down with maximal versatility on the job. I can set the whole thing for most gigs in about 3 minutes. Sometimes, with a second board, it's more like 7 or 8 minutes (a second board means some other additions too.)

 

PC4 sounds like a great option. My "do everything" board is NS3 compact. Decent synth engine (their A1 synth), really nice EPs, workable APs, more than workable organ with drawbars. Knobby interface so everything is selectable on the fly. I'd throw that in the mix for a single-board rig that checks some or all of the boxes you mentioned.

[DJkeys]

Back in the day, I toured with my cover band using a CP70-B and a Prophet 5. All gear for the band was in the old, heavy anvil cases. The two cases for the piano weighed just about as much as the piano itself!

 

Now I gig with two Nords, two three space racks, two QSC K8.2s, a keyboard stand and utility box. Setup time is about 20 minutes, total weight less than 200 pounds. Small is beautiful!

 

-dj

 

And a fan of Invisible Stands judging from the picture!

 

Yep, those stands are older than a lot of the members here! They have been holding up my studio gear for decades now-

 

-dj

[Delaware Dave]

My "do everything" board is NS3 compact. Decent synth engine (their A1 synth), really nice EPs, workable APs, more than workable organ with drawbars. Knobby interface so everything is selectable on the fly. I'd throw that in the mix for a single-board rig that checks some or all of the boxes you mentioned.

 

NS3 73 key list $3600

PC4-7 76 key list $1800

 

For me there's one box is doesn't check.

[MathOfInsects]

 

NS3 73 key list $3600

PC4-7 76 key list $1800

 

For me there's one box is doesn't check.

 

LOL. Definitely. But I didn't see budget as one of the boxes for the OP.

[CEB]

It"s the drive not the swirlies.

Actually the drive on KB3 is decent. So is the organ tone. underperformers:

1) C/V

2) Leslie sim

3) percussion is routed through the C/V

4) KB3 supports only 1 manual; can't have a split manual or a dual manual unless the 2nd manual is a VAST organ as opposed to the physically modeled organ of KB3. Issue with VAST organs are that the notes aren't phased locked. VAST organ is best used in the lower manual comping

 

All that being said I have a fairly decent internal leslie using a double leslie effect. I also have a split manual using KB3 on top and VAST organ on bottom; both work in a split manual environment and dual manual environment. A vent or GSI Burn also fix the leslie sim.

 

I"ve never owned a Kurz. This board will be my first. Just saying that the drive and how it responds to the pedal is what makes the Vent what it is.

[Adan]

The process of thinking these issues through never really comes to a conclusion. At best a temporary preferences. That's why these threads are good, because the issue never goes out of style, and the parameters change as gear changes. For instance, when a new capable all-in-one keyboard like the PC4 comes on the market, it can tilt the scales for some folks.

 

Where I've sort of ended up is with scaleability -- different rigs for different situations. Some gigs merit more effort than others. But scaleability comes at a price.

[Morrissey]

My rig is designed for quick set-up and tear down with maximal versatility on the job.

 

Didn't you post a video awhile back of how fast you could set up your rig? I recall being jealous of your efficiency and streamlining.

[Al Quinn]

Yeah I'm in the scalability camp too. After trying for years, but not succeeding, at a one board approach using a Nord Stage HA88 my rigs have varied for the past few years. The smallest is an Electro 4D with iPad: it's actually pretty good but only after I replaced the springs with lighter ones. The largest is CP4, Electro 4D, and MacBook Pro. But the one I seem to go to most often is CP4 and Electro 4D with HX3 expander box. With this rig everything sounds and plays really well. Having said that the PC4-7 has my interest. Even if I had to add the iPad or HX3 module it's still compelling as a one board solution if I can get along with the action.

[Reezekeys]

I know what you guys mean. I had to cut down my rig at a certain point.

Rob, you pioneered gigging with a Mac *desktop*! No reliability problems, right?

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

Yea that rig was something! The band had to pause 10 minutes between each song since I had to swap floppies ~10-20 times! (Original Mac users will know what I mean)!

 

All those floppies too! It got to be too much, that's why I cut the rig down.

 

[Stokely]

Put me down into the "I wish there were two boards that would give me what three would" camp. You can get there with the sounds (to my satisfaction at least) but you end up losing on action, or controls...something's got to give.

 

Before Covid I was heading toward a Nord Stage 3 compact as the best of compromises I could do after selling my Electro. It would allow me a second keyboard as a "luxury", so if I wanted to say get a Prophet rev 2 it's ok that it has no organ or piano...yet I could still limp through a gig with ONLY it if I had to.

 

Ideally, I'd have:

weighted all-rounder

organ-centric

synth-centric with controls

 

 

But in no way does it make sense for someone doing my piddly gigs to have or bring that out! If I used keyboards at home then I could rationalize owning them, but I use plugins 100% and am very happy with them.

[ProfD]

Back in brotha Moe's gig heyday, that massive rig was required because every KB including the synth was monotimbral.

 

In the early days of MIDI, KBs were stil monotimbral and limited polyphony. Therefore, KB rigs of 3 or more KBs and/or a rack containing tone generators may have been necessary.

 

Fast-forward technology to the past 20 years or so and the main reason KB rigs are massive is...vanity.

 

There is a fine line between a lone KB on an X-stand and a set-up only Vangelis could appreciate.

 

I enjoyed watching Paul Shaffer command his KB rig on "Letterman". But, I couldn't help but to think, he's not playing half that sh8t around him.

 

Granted, some songs are being recorded with multiple KB parts but then again, multitimbral KBs with 128-note polyphony do exist.

 

Effective use of splits and layers made today's KB workstations totally capable of providing all of the sounds and sampling capability the average gig requires.

 

Add a 2nd KB and/or laptop with software and all bases should be covered.

 

Mastering set-list sound design will outline all of the sounds one needs in order to get through the gig.

 

It helps being able to tell the band, "no, I'm not covering the Earth, Wind and Fire" horn parts too.

 

The most important thing is being honest with yourself as a musician and answering the question of whether or not more than two (2) KBs is necessary.

 

Of course, I'm just a KB player. My needs are super simple compared to most. All I need is an EP sound and I'm golden. Everything else is window dressing.

[Barryjam]

I like plugging the output of Mojo61 into the aux input of CP88. Then everything is being output through the CP88. This avoids a keyboard mixer altogether. I only use KB effects or eq, and I love Mojo Leslie enough that no Vent is needed.

 

Someday I might expand with a table top Analog Synth, like Ob6 or Prophet 5/10. But I"m thinking that I will only need 2 of these 3 instruments on any one song, so I would have to problem solve the outputs.

 

Don"t think I would ever go three keyboard stand.

[Stokely]

What's really awful is going to a show--big or small--and seeing this huge keyboard rig............and you can barely hear what he's playing if at all. I try to keep that in mind any time I think I'll take the time to expand my rig. I also try to add up how many people besides me will appreciate it--including the band, sadly--and that reins me in too Definitely there's a breaking point though where I'm not going to play a rig I don't enjoy playing, full stop.

 

Might as well be up there with a battery powered home keyboard with a speaker at that point.

 

Also, with complexity comes more things that can go wrong, and nothing is worse than a band struggling with technical issues (often its guitarists playing with their pedalboard and you can tell they are upset with it!)

[Moonglow]

I would much rather schlep/set-up a smaller number of heavy items than numerous lighter pieces. For the past ten years I've imposed a limit of "no more than two keyboards" and no rack-mountable modules, and have felt very liberated. I might be able to tolerate placing a module in some open real estate on one of my keyboards, if the right one came along and it was easy enough to set up.

[MathOfInsects]

My rig is designed for quick set-up and tear down with maximal versatility on the job.

 

Didn't you post a video awhile back of how fast you could set up your rig? I recall being jealous of your efficiency and streamlining.

 

I did. I think I came in at 3 minutes and a few seconds, and I remember making a point of going slow and pausing. I am such a nerd about this stuff that I even pack my roller cart in the order I'll need the items to set up how I like (stand, pedals/snake, keyboard(s), cable ends in, power on). (On the way home I pack the car in the order the equipment comes inside.)

[stoken6]

2 keyboards and a Gemini module with a Voce MIDI drawbar unit and the Vent for the leslie sim. Doesn't seem like a lot but when you factor in that each one has its own power supply, each one has its own audio connection, MIDI cables, footswitches, mixers, etc. I can't seem to get my setup done in under 30 minutes.

I'll bet there's some ergonomic improvements to be made. Could you mount the Voce, Vent and Gemini (and a mixer, if using) on a shelf or similar, and set it up for easy access? Prewire (you're already doing that), add a power distribution strip and run all connections to/from that shelf. Colo(u)r-code every connector (power, audio, MIDI, pedals...) and you should be able to accelerate your setup.

 

Nice rig btw, and good luck!

 

Cheers, Mike