OK, the Corona Virus Isn't Going Away. Now What?

[Anderton]

It all comes down to credibility, doesn't it? I don't dismiss conspiracy theories out of hand, because several of them during my lifetime turned out to be true (e.g., Gulf of Tonkin). I still find it hard to believe that Kennedy was shot by one weird guy, who was then conveniently shot by another weird guy...and clearly, people who were saying the government was suppressing credible data about UFOs were right.

 

But, then you have the credibility on the other side. People who said there was no moon landing have a hard time making their case, when amateur astronomers tracked the ship going to the moon. My Dad consulted to NASA, and yes, there really was a moon landing. And those who say the earth is flat and surrounded by a wall of ice have their work cut out for them, if they want me to believe that

 

During my lifetime, there have been at least 20 predictions of the end of the world. When it doesn't happen, the date just gets pushed further out. OTOH, you have things like the very real, and present, danger from solar storms that could basically wipe out the grid. That's not a conspiracy theory, that's astronomy, but people treat it like a conspiracy theory.

 

What really upsets me is that people in power just can't resist weaponizing something like Covid-19. Dismissing it WAS about political gain. Making it sound as bad as possible was ALSO about political gain. What we were lacking was people talking purely about what we knew and what we didn't know (and we didn't know much, it was the NOVEL Coronavirus). It was an exercise in improvisation. If you were in New York when Covid hit, and were hearing ambulance sirens 24/7 and finding out your neighbor just died, it was, to say the least, incredibly disturbing. People wanted answers, and by golly, they got answers. The only problem was that a lot of them were unfounded speculation, on all sides. To make things worse, some erred on the side of excessive caution, while other erred on the side of sticking their fingers in ears and saying "I can't hear you."

 

There is nothing to be gained by considering conspiracy theories in this thread, because really, we have no idea. At least one doctor who was "muzzled" was promoting a cure for ebola, and then covid, which had no studies, no proof of efficacy, and no scientific basis for the claims of being a cure...but did put $100,000 in the doctor's pocket. On the other hand, there are ethical whistleblowers who need to be heard. How trusting can we afford to be? Unfortunately, I think the answer is "not much."

 

I don't trust any of these people. Dan, you're a nice guy, and I can't imagine you making stuff up for personal notoriety or gain...so you have a hard time wrapping your head around the fact that other people do, on a regular basis. It's not how you roll. Unfortunately, it's how a lot of other people roll.

 

So...it is what it is. There are plenty of places on the web where people can advocate for their particular political positions, but this isn't one of them. What we CAN do is try to figure out how to navigate our way through the bombardments of B.S, so that we can gig, do Zoom concerts, or whatever. The B.S. is too big and too pervasive, and coming at us from too many angles, for us to be able to do anything meaningful about correcting it in a forum intended for musicians.

 

But really, I have no idea

[GovernorSilver]

Just noticed that my neighborhood stores have started replacing "Mask required" signs with "Mask Optional If Vaccinated" ones.

[Notes_Norton]

Here in Florida, it's illegal to have "vaccinated required" policies. Our governor passed that one.

 

This even applies to cruise ships. Personally, I can see the cruise ships requiring vaccine passports before boarding. After all, they do not want to repeat the floating morgues that weren't allowed to dock anywhere. That would not be good for profits, and profits are the reason they are in business.

 

I, for one, would be much more comfortable taking a cruise that required a vaccine passport. One of my neighbors is a frequent cruiser. She gets great deals because she is a gambler, and they see her as good business. She is 80 years old and doesn't look or act it. She will be flying to the Caribbean to board the next cruse instead of Miami because of our governor's orders (She calls him DeathSantis). She will not board a ship that doesn't have a vaccine policy.

 

IMO a business requiring a vaccine passport does not infringe on anyone's freedoms. There are plenty of places here that require shirts and shoes, some restaurants require jackets and ties for the men. Places that serve alcohol require an ID card. I gigged in a bar that had a no hat policy (weird if you ask me). Many businesses have a no smoking policy. So if a business is requiring a vaccine passport to protect itself, and it's customers, how does that limit your freedom any more than shirts and shoes? If you don't like it, you have the freedom to bring your business somewhere else.

 

I targeted the senior citizen market with my music here in Florida since I was 40 years old. They are finally starting to have parties again, and we've had a few gigs. All of them have been outdoors. Unfortunately the season is ending, and they have been end of season, see you in the fall parties, so our summer is still looking slim. But it looks like we will have recovery next year.

 

I don't believe anything from MSNBC and further left, nor FOX and further right. Independent checks have shown that over 50% of what the news pundits report on MSNBC and FOX is only about 10% fully true. The rest runs from partially true to totally false. They spread lies to manipulate you with anger and fear. In fact, over 50% runs from mostly false to totally false. If you watch these and more extreme stations, take everything you hear with a great dose of skepticism. There is a greater chance that you are being lied to than there is that you are being told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[techristian]

 

I don't believe anything from MSNBC and further left, nor FOX and further right. Independent checks have shown that over 50% of what the news pundits report on MSNBC and FOX is only about 10% fully true. The rest runs from partially true to totally false. They spread lies to manipulate you with anger and fear. In fact, over 50% runs from mostly false to totally false. If you watch these and more extreme stations, take everything you hear with a great dose of skepticism. There is a greater chance that you are being lied to than there is that you are being told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

 

I believe that the TRUTH is somewhere between "conspiracy theories" and mainstream media.

 

Dan

[Anderton]

 

I believe that the TRUTH is somewhere between "conspiracy theories" and mainstream media.

 

Dan

 

So do I. But, I'd add one more thing: for some weird reason, neither side seems capable of saying "I don't know," or even "I'll get back to you on that."

 

What's really weird is when you see a feedback loop, where A says something, then B repeats it, then C repeats it, then D repeats it, and then A references D to "prove" being right.

 

Maybe Marshall McLuhan got it half right: the world did become a wired global village, but he didn't realize the wiring would be more like a sewer line. Or to paraphrase something Kraftwerk said about US TV, "You have the most amazing educational medium ever, and you put on cowboy shows."

 

Gresham's Law: Bad money drives out good. Anderton's Law of the Net: Bad information drives out good. Well, except here, of course.

[Anderton]

Here's some info from someone who was a virus researcher at Harvard Medical School. It's not from Fox, CNN, or the CDC I LOVE the fact that he uses the word "Unknown" a lot. I also like that he differentiates between transmissibility and severity. There are no value judgements here, just stats.

 

It's concerning that the Pfizer vaccine is only 75-82% effective against the Delta variant...and also that Delta is doubling in the US every week or two.

 

B.1.617.2 / Delta / Indian variant: Becoming globally dominant.

 

Pfizer 79% (75â82%): 4â5x worse than 95%, 1.8â2.5x worse than 90%

Oxford 60% (53â66%): 7â10x worse than 95%, 3.4â4.7x worse than 90%

â¦versus symptomatic infections. Unknown versus asymptomatic.

 

â-

We"ve had four main increases in transmissibility (which is different from severity).

 

(1) Original proto-Covid to Wuhan/WHO1/2019 (12/24/19). Recent paper speculates that this was 3 mutations before Wuhan/WHO1/2019. Possibly in Aug-Nov 2019. China has not released any genetic sequences before 12/24/19. Unknown whether the jump was due to mutations or recombinations. Unknown whether severity/death-rate/age-group-impact changed.

 

(2) D614G (clade 20A-20C). Severity stayed same. Deaths rate same. Age-group impact same.

 

(3) B.1.1.7 / Alpha / UK-Kent variant. More severe. Higher death rate. Affects more kids and young people. Possibly from recombination events in immunocompromised individuals due to large number of mutations.

 

Note: B.1.351 / Beta / South African variant had more immunity escape (for people with 'natural resistance' from previous Covid, and 'vaccine-boosted resistance'), but was not as transmissible as B.1.1.7 / Alpha / UK-Kent.

 

(4) B.1.617.2 / Delta / Indian variant. More severe. Unknown death rate. Affects more kids and young people.

 

(5, 6, â¦) It would be nice if the next variant with higher transmissibility had LOWER severity.

 

â-

US has only 10% Delta, but doubling every week or two.

[Anderton]

And while I hate to give this thread yet more oxygen, I did find an article about the latest on the lab leak theory that doesn't have an agenda and doesn't have a view it wants to support, it's just a collection of facts. It comes to no conclusion other than "could go either way, here are the current facts we know, some of the new info points away from the lab leak theory but we really don't know."

[Chip McDonald]

Here's some info from someone who was a virus researcher at Harvard Medical School. It's not from Fox, CNN, or the CDC I LOVE the fact that he uses the word "Unknown" a lot. I also like that he differentiates between transmissibility and severity. There are no value judgements here, just stats.

 

Eric Feigl-Ding?

 

US has only 10% Delta, but doubling every week or two.[/i]

 

 

It's 20% now. Doubling every two weeks. The curve has flattened out at the 10,000-12,000 daily infections mark. We have 2-3 weeks of "this" before we're in a dangerous inflection range again. Between late June and July it starts back up. A new surge in August maybe. I hope I'm wrong. It will be hidden in the data, initially:

 

1) fewer people left not vaccinated;

2) fewer people bothering to get tested;

3) Delta/variants have fewer "covid-like" indicators (asnosmia);

 

A non-linear trend between deaths and a rise in the daily rate will be a harbinger for a new surge happening, but nobody will notice until it's too late (again). The question will be when the more aggressive nature of some of the variants offsets the sub-40 year old unvaccinated population's better resilience, and the halved unvaccinated group. I'm going to try to ply Feigle-Ding to make resolute a more authoritative depiction of what that will look like.

 

Feigle-Ding has the best perspective, really the only authority to have tried to raise the alarm to what it was going to turn into from the outset. He was the only person online I could get to comment on anything back in January 2020 when it was completely off of everyone's radar, and he was the only one on the MSM shows actually warning people of what could happen (and that they needed to wear masks). Too many of the authorities in epidemiology and virology are not aware of their status in this context and are biting their tongues. OR - they're beholden to their status among the pharma industry, or they're too much a cog in the NIH bureaucracy.

 

He's starting to reference two curves now, and I'm hoping that enters common parlance because it's reality. I've tried to get him to be more aggressive with his verbiage, because it's people like him that have the bonafides whose words hold the most weight.

[Chip McDonald]

=Anderton] that doesn't have an agenda and doesn't have a view it wants to support, it's just a collection of facts.

 

 

They state "promulgated early last year by Donald Trump and his supporters, before being dismissed" *I'm* not an Orange Jesus supporter by any stretch, and I defy anyone to find someone referencing the lab leak position before me online. That until now, it has been dismissed as "conspiracy theory" is a the *result* of bias. I've been blathering about how both the right and the left are corrupt for decades here, and in other places online. Castigating this position as being "something Trumpers think" is an Establishment tactic to disarm talking about the subject. I tactic that has worked great until now, thanks to Jon Stewart.

 

 

*The Guardian is no different than U.S. news papers*. They have left and right affiliations, and take positions based on party positions. They WILL NOT "report" a position that bucks the Establishment. As evidence of that, look up "Glen Greenwald The Intercept".

 

 

 

"'It was a collaboration with colleagues in China to look at evidence and design studies for further investigation.'

 

"Colleagues" is a good description, since the lab was doing research paid for by the NIH through "investigation" lead Peter Daszak's EcoHealth Alliance NPO since at least 2003.

 

 

* they absolutely did not look at evidence. They were given a 2 hour walking tour of the lab. That's not looking at evidence. That's looking at hoods and flasks, talking about pipettes.

* they don't need to "design studies for further investigation". You do a lab assessment. Something I know about obliquely, since literally today my wife - who runs labs dealing with things much more dangerous than coronavirus - is having to do this week.

 

Labs create data. Labs have chains of custody showing who had control of what, when.

 

 

They retrieved nothing. They looked at nothing. Furthermore, *there is video of CCP officials taking computers and boxes out of the lab back in January 2020* when all of this started.

 

 

âIt comes to no conclusion other than "could go either way, here are the current facts we know, some of the new info points away from the lab leak theory but we really don't know."

 

 

What new *evidence* points away from the lab leak theory?

 

He was collecting bats from all over China, to isolate and grow zoonotic coronaviruses. Stating there was one in a cave 1,000 miles away - but Patient Zero and the outbreak happened in the same neighborhood as *the lab where you're isolating and growing your zoonotic SARS like ACE2 bind coronavirus samples from 1,000 miles away* - doesn't point away from the lab.

 

 

"The research team isolated and cultured a live virus that binds to the human SARS receptor ACE2 and can therefore be transmitted directly from bats to people"

 

That was written in October of 2013.

 

A zoonotic SARS like virus from bats that binds to ACE2 that can be transmitted to humans? "Isolated and cultured* - that is literally gain of function research.

 

EcoHealth Alliance (NIH NPO) Article from October 2013

[Notes_Norton]

<...snip...>

I believe that the TRUTH is somewhere between "conspiracy theories" and mainstream media.

 

Dan

I believe the TRUTH is somewhere between right-wing media and left-wing media.

 

When someone criticizes mainstream media, that tells me he/she listens to right-wing media and considers anything that is left of FOX to be wrong. Since Fox runs 60% from mostly false to pants-on-fire, I consider anyone who criticizes mainstream media to be misinformed.

 

FOX and MSNBC but tell more lies that truth according to PolitiFact, FlackCheck and most other sites that treat both left and right wing with equal treatment.

 

Mainstream is in the middle between the two, and yes is still biased, but at least is more truthful than deceitful.

 

In the PolitiFact chart below, I don't believe anything to the left of The Atlantic or the right of The Hill, because the odds are in favor of getting lied to at BOTH extremes. Anything in between, I take with a proverbial grain of salt.

 

Notes

 

http://www.nortonmusic.com/pix/news1.jpg

[PrairieGuy]

That chart is a joke. No one in their right mind would say that CNN, NYT, and WashPo are middle of the road. They don't even lean left...they are far left.

 

Politifact is a left wing organization known for bias and untruths.

[Notes_Norton]

To the FOX and farther right viewer, anything to the left of FOX is leftist.

 

Sorry, I don't agree with

 

Of course, the so-called left-wing Politifact also gives MSNBC a 9% full truth rating. I don't think a leftist publication would trash MSNBC.

 

FOX gets 8%, that seems pretty fair to me.

 

I count both extremes as unreliable and manipulative. .

 

So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

 

Peace.

[Anderton]

This has nothing to do with gigging in a post-Covid world. People will believe what they want to believe. I believe what I want to believe...until there's new data that requires me to believe something else.

 

This is the last time I'll say it:

 

News organizations are businesses intended to make profit, not organizations intended to disseminate news. As such, they have to hold on to their existing base, because the number of options for people to consume news continues to grow, and this splinters market share.

 

So, any news organization will tell you what they think you want to hear, in order to retain you as a viewer/reader. It really is just that simple. If Fox said "Y'know, Biden did a good thing" think how many viewers they'd lose because they want their prejudices reinforced, so they go to OAN or whatever. Conversely, if MSNBC said "Y'know, Mitch McConnell does kinda have a point," their people would go to the Young Turks or some other pureplay left wingers.

 

It's all about the money.

 

The fact that we're even debating whether various outlets are accurate is meaningless, because spin is everything. Spin is what props up their bottom line. Accuracy/objectivity is not relevant.

 

Now, back to live gigs having an uptick...

[Notes_Norton]

We had a couple of 'going away for the summer' parties, and we are booking next winter season.

 

For 12 winter seasons before COVID we played at a waterfront outdoor marina once a week. The new owners are not sure if they want to start that up again. They seem to want it to be a restaurant that turns tables rapidly, so we started looking. Another waterfront restaurant/bar would love to have us continue the weekly party there, and is offering more money.

 

That's a lot better than 2020

 

Notes

[Anderton]

The new owners are not sure if they want to start that up again. They seem to want it to be a restaurant that turns tables rapidly, so we started looking.

 

My local sports bar used to book live music, but came to same conclusion - they wanted to turn tables, they didn't want people listening to music. I always figured serving drinks was more profitable a less labor-intensive than serving food, but I've never run a restaurant...so what do I know?

 

I was trying to think of a solution. What if restaurants with live music had bands do two 45-minute sets, separated by a significant amount of time...like from 8:00 to 8:45, and 11:00 to 11:45? Diners wouldn't have an incentive to stay past the 1st set, and the second set could pick up all the people who just want to drink, because 11 PM is kind of late to have dinner. The band could have dinner between 9:00 and 10:30, which would be an extra spiff if the tip jar was lean.

 

I've been thinking about putting together a set for Halloween and finding some dive to play. It would be called "The Deadful Great," and consist entirely of songs by dead rock stars

[Notes_Norton]

The funny thing about that was we were playing from 1PM to 4PM. A time when restaurants are usually empty. We had times when it was filled to capacity, people leaving because they couldn't find a seat. Sure, they sat there and nursed drinks, but they were filling tables that were otherwise empty.

 

People came, had a late lunch, and started leaving around 3:30PM.

 

The old owners knew what we did for them, which is why we were there 12 years running. I don't think the new owners understand that, but everybody has a right to do business the way they see fit.

 

We have another site interested. They saw what we did and were very enthusiastic. They even offered a bit more money.

[Anderton]

This article from a Dutch news source about what happened after a festival in Holland doesn't look good in terms of having concerts again.

 

Around 1,000 visitors to a festival in Utrecht held over the first weekend in July are now known to have picked up coronavirus there. In total, 20,000 people attended the Verknipt outdoor festival and the infections were spread over both days, according to local health board figures.

 

The festival was a 'test for entry" event, meaning visitors were admitted if they could show a QR code which showed they had either been vaccinated, had a negative coronavirus test or had recently had the disease. It is the first time so many infections have been traced back to a single event and more cases are likely to be identified in the coming days, a health board spokesman said.

 

So...either people were fudging the test, or the idea of having a "vaccine passport" is irrelevant. Unfortunately, the article didn't indicate how many had serious reactions, and for how many, it was just a mild case because they had been vaccinated.

[Groove On]

News organizations are businesses intended to make profit, not organizations intended to disseminate news. As such, they have to hold on to their existing base, because the number of options for people to consume news continues to grow, and this splinters market share.

 

So, any news organization will tell you what they think you want to hear, in order to retain you as a viewer/reader. It really is just that simple. If Fox said "Y'know, Biden did a good thing" think how many viewers they'd lose because they want their prejudices reinforced, so they go to OAN or whatever. Conversely, if MSNBC said "Y'know, Mitch McConnell does kinda have a point," their people would go to the Young Turks or some other pureplay left wingers.

 

It's all about the money.

 

The fact that we're even debating whether various outlets are accurate is meaningless, because spin is everything. Spin is what props up their bottom line. Accuracy/objectivity is not relevant.

It may take a generation for individuals in our society to adapt to this way of communicating through technology. It has exceeded our human abilities to filter/organize and see what"s actually going on. Many people don't have the time to checkout multiple sides of an issue - and this new technology excels at throwing hundreds of issues at us every day.

 

One of the biggest cultural hurdles are people who still watch the news like it"s 1980. Many don't realize they are unknowingly dividing into news outlet camps. In my own family, there is the ever contentious Fox/Oan vs CNN/MSNBC split. I"ve specifically had to ban all politics as a topic of discussion at family gatherings. I"ve even considered hosting a movie night and forcing everyone to watch Kurosawa"s Rashomon just to get the point across.

 

A weird side effect of the internet splintering the audience - old labels that people defined themselves by, are all shifting significantly. Everybody thinks they are in the chocolate chip cookie jar, but don't realize the other cookies are no long chocolate chip - heck they may even be crackers or wafers. For example, many liberals don"t realize that they are now considered conservative, and some have gone completely authoritarian (while still considering themselves liberal). Conservatives now sound more like classical anti-establishment liberals! And according to the Left everybody else are alt-right racists. Those old label definitions are now all-twisted up in knots.

 

It"s probably good in the long run as individuals learn how to navigate those cultural tides, but in the meantime there is so much confusion. I feel bad for the next young generations, if you grew up in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s you were gifted with a cultural heritage that gave you perspective even if you disagreed with it. Culturually, the next young generations have a really rough road ahead to hoe. The culture they are inheriting is a big tangled mess, I wouldn't be surprised if they chucked it all and started over.

[PrairieGuy]

So...either people were fudging the test, or the idea of having a "vaccine passport" is irrelevant.

Or maybe the vaccine doesn't work that well. Which is probably the case because every day the number of vaccinated people that are catching Covid increases.

 

And so people are pressured to take an experimental vaccine where the long tern side effects are not known and where it now appears that it really doesn't work that well. And if you don't take it you're called anti-science and are not allowed live a normal life.

 

I'm all for vaccines. I'm against being forced to take an experimental vaccine for a disease where the survival rate for my demographic is greater than 99.95%.

[Anderton]

Or maybe the vaccine doesn't work that well.

 

To be fair, the vaccine was never claimed to be able to prevent you from getting Covid. The claim was that it would reduce the seriousness, so you wouldn't end up on a ventilator or die. Apparently it does work very well, given that the people now in hospitals are overwhelmingly unvaccinated. Don't ask the media (right or left) what's happening, ask nurses and doctors at your local hospitals. They will also tell you that almost all the vaccinated people who caught Covid have the Delta variant, which didn't exist when the vaccine was developed.

 

Every day the number of vaccinated people that are catching Covid increases.

 

That stands to reason. There are more vaccinated people, and the Delta variant is spreading. Besides, the drug companies readily admit that effectiveness against ever-mutating variants is less. How much less, and how long it takes before the antibodies are gone, is not yet known.

 

I'm all for vaccines. I'm against being forced to take an experimental vaccine for a disease where the survival rate for my demographic is greater than 99.95%.

 

Again to be fair, it's not a digital situation where either you die or you're fine. I met quite a few people at Summer NAMM who have had horrifying, lingering effects from Covid, because they caught it before the vaccination was approved. No, they didn't die, but I bet they would have been happy not to have to go to the hospital and have tubes stuck in them. They have aged WAY beyond the 18 months that elapsed between shows. I hope they can all recover fully, and I hope you never get it.

 

I'm not arguing with you, because I've said nothing that can be disputed, nor am I going to dismiss your opinion. It is shared by many people. However, I can also do whatever I want.

 

The bottom line is that it's NOT all about me. 4,000,000 people have died so far world-wide, and there are going to be a lot more before this is over. In the USA, last year Covid was the #3 leading cause of death. If you don't believe the numbers and take away 150,000 deaths, it would still be #3. I don't want any responsibility in perpetuating the virus's existence - let alone allowing it to mutate into something that, eventually, will not be able to be defeated by modern medicine.

 

To me, this is like a science fiction movie with alien invaders. They don't care whether we can go to concerts or not. They're relentless, and they spend all their time probing for weaknesses in humans so they can become more efficient at finding new hosts. So we are essentially in a war. During wars, lots of people die, and lots of people make sacrifices so that other people don't die.

 

When you lock down, people suffer. When you open up, the virus spreads. I've yet to hear a good solution, only less bad ones. Face it - everyone is making this up as we go along. This is the "novel" coronavirus, not the "been there, done that" coronavirus. Humanity is pretty much clueless on how to fix it.

[Theo Verelst]

For a contagious epidemic, the only real solution naturally speaking is making sure the virus dies everywhere, under the presumption there is no further source of it, that is a real end to the problem. Contracting the problem and successfully fighting the last bit 'till every molecule of the dangerous kind is gone is ok. Cleaning spaces with soap or suitable chemicals or UV light treatment or letting them unused for 4 days should be right enough (unless it's a freezer). Perfection following those rules can make the world normal.

 

Combined non-symptomatic people and groups with remaining amounts of the virus in their system could then be a problem, and those having been vaccinated might be harder to find out about whether they have small amounts of the virus in their system.

 

Not fun games of life...

 

T.

[Notes_Norton]

Experimental vaccine?

 

Of course, they all were experimental at one time. And thanks to enough people who didn't refuse to take experimental vaccines we no longer are plagued by smallpox, diphtheria, polio, tetanus, pertussis, and a few other pandemics.

 

As long as enough people refuse to take the new experimental vaccines, we have no hope of putting COVID into an issue in the history books like we did smallpox, polio and the others.

 

IMO counting the number of unvaccinated people who have died vs. the number of vaccinated people who have died of COVID-19, also comparing the number of unvaccinated people who have had permanent health challenges due to COVID, and the number of vaccinated people who have had health challenges due to the vaccine, I consider the vaccine a safe bet in the gamble for my future health.

 

But then, not everybody agrees with me.

 

Notes

[Chip McDonald]

What Fauci, Walensky and the CDC are not telling people - but is fact:

At this point if you're vaccinated, you still have a 50% chance of not being impacted by Delta. Which goes either way: the vaccines are less effective against it than the original strain, but on the other hand 50% is better than ZERO.

 

But the most important thing they are CRIMINAL in not educating the public on:

You have a another 50% less likelihood of SPREADING the virus if you're vaccinated!!!!!.

 

Studies from Scotland and Israel show you only need 5-15 SECONDS exposure to become infected. Alternately, you can infect someone else that quickly - which is why MASKS SHOULD BE MANDATORY EVERYWHERE.

 

Stopping the SPREAD seems to be something the CDC and the U.S. government cares nothing about, as opposed to Australia and New Zealand. That there are obviously STILL people that don't understand the metrics of vaccination lies solely on the shoulders of the people whose job is to protect the health of the citizens of the U.S., Fauci et al.

[Chip McDonald]

Or maybe the vaccine doesn't work that well.

 

Humanity is pretty much clueless on how to fix it.

 

 

Humanity knows exactly how to fix it. Jacinda Adern knows. Australia did, but is now fighting their sub-median population.

 

If we'd locked down for 30 days when the vaccines came out, we'd be over it in the States. We'd be living life like they do in NZ and Australia. And Delta would not be spreading.

 

It's really a measure of the intellect of the leaders of nations. Years from now Australia and New Zealand will be able to take advantage of their economic power in not having to deal with it. It looks like France may be getting the point; ultimately there will be other nations that realize the sooner they lock down for real, until they let it run it's course in their respective country, the sooner they're beyond it. Again I'm going to say: eventually we'll hear about billionaires, stars arranging to migrate to New Zealand - where their lives and families can live in near normalcy.

 

"Re-open to help the economy" is the most short sighted, dumb-herd "strategy" of human history. We know what has to be done and are unwilling to do it, because of dumb people politics.

[PrairieGuy]

If we'd locked down for 30 days when the vaccines came out, we'd be over it in the States. We'd be living life like they do in NZ and Australia. And Delta would not be spreading.

Lockdowns only work if everything is locked down. But you let thousands of people walk across the southern border every single day since Covid began, and not a single one had to prove they were vaccinated or get tested. That's dumb people politics at its finest, letting people work to support their families is far less dumb.

 

If you're scared, lock yourself down. Forever if you want. You can't catch Covid if you stay home. That's undeniable. But you don't have the right to tell me how to live because of your fears.

[PrairieGuy]

Experimental vaccine?

 

Of course, they all were experimental at one time. And thanks to enough people who didn't refuse to take experimental vaccines we no longer are plagued by smallpox, diphtheria, polio, tetanus, pertussis, and a few other pandemics.

 

As long as enough people refuse to take the new experimental vaccines, we have no hope of putting COVID into an issue in the history books like we did smallpox, polio and the others.

 

IMO counting the number of unvaccinated people who have died vs. the number of vaccinated people who have died of COVID-19, also comparing the number of unvaccinated people who have had permanent health challenges due to COVID, and the number of vaccinated people who have had health challenges due to the vaccine, I consider the vaccine a safe bet in the gamble for my future health.

 

But then, not everybody agrees with me.

 

Notes

Yes, it's experimental and also not fully approved by the FDA. We've had decades to tweak the smallpox, polio, etc vaccines and they are proven to be extremely safe. Covid vaccines were rushed and are not as safe (6000 US deaths alone) and the long term side effects are unknown.

 

The vaccine is safer for certain demographics, but not taking it is safer for other demographics. If you're older or have underlying conditions it's a safe bet to take it. If you're young and healthy not taking it is a safer bet.

 

Forcing a healthy 21-year old to get an experimental vaccine because an overweight 65 year old is scared is unethical, in fact, probably criminal.

[Anderton]

Or maybe the vaccine doesn't work that well.

 

Humanity is pretty much clueless on how to fix it.

 

 

Humanity knows exactly how to fix it.

 

No, humanity knew how to fix it, but doesn't know how to fix the way it is now, where's it's scattershot all over the globe, there aren't enough vaccines to go around, etc.

[Anderton]

Forcing a healthy 21-year old to get an experimental vaccine because an overweight 65 year old is scared is unethical, in fact, probably criminal.

 

That's quite an oversimplification. The demographic for infections is trending younger, because basically, a) the older people got shots, and b) the virus picked off the easy targets. Where your thinking is mostly correct is that people below the age of 30 are far less likely to die, by a huge factor. But as I said previously, it's more complicated than just whether you die and it's all over, or you live and it's all clear. There are shades of gray and long-term damage, even to people presumed healthy.

 

Neither you nor I have the answers. The difference is that I know I don't

[KuruPrionz]

Covid vaccines were rushed and are not as safe (6000 US deaths alone) and the long term side effects are unknown.

 

Forcing a healthy 21-year old to get an experimental vaccine because an overweight 65 year old is scared is unethical, in fact, probably criminal.

 

All of those 6,000 people who died after taking the vaccine had pre-exisitng conditions, just like the 600,000 (100x more) who died from not taking the vaccine. That's what everybody says anyway.

 

Here is a fun little story about a 24 year old man who had a double lung transplant after contracting Covid, probably caught it from another anti-vaxxer.

https://news.yahoo.com/24-year-old-who-needed-double-lung-transplant-wishes-hed-been-vaccinated-for-covid-19-180810400.html

 

"Thousands" (actual number unknown) of people crossing the border is a drop in the bucket.

 

https://www.lawa.org/-/media/7fcedb5f432a46688c4a503b8406feed.pdf

 

In January 2021 at LAX International Airport, there were this many documented travelers. Think 100% of them were fully tested for Covid and quarantined? Guess again.

Domestic 1,378,414

International 339,198

Total 1,717,612

 

But those travelers are important for helping to keep the economy going and everybody knows money is worth more than human life.

 

And, I went to a pharmacist and asked for a vaccine. Not sure about where you live but nobody here is "forced" to take a vaccine and I haven't heard of that happening.

It makes good fiction though...

[ajstan]

Trying to understand the culture here...

 

Obviously, some of the posts in this thread aren't consistent with how a serious person would go about talking with friends to have a rational debate, find common ground, or attempt to change minds. It would seem reasonable to assume that's not the goal here.

 

So, what's the purpose then? It appears that in some instances, it's an attempt to establish the willingness to endlessly use combinations of invective, logical fallacies, intellectual dishonesty, name-calling, disrespect, and expressions of yelling, anger, or other loss of emotional control to discourage those with differing viewpoints from participating.

 

I think that @PrairieGuy now realizes the futility of engaging in a discussion where Politifact is seen as an honest broker of truth and examples of "mainstream" media that "meets high standards" with "minimal partisan bias" include CNN, the New York Times, and the Washington Post (unless that chart was intended as a joke, in which case, well done!).

 

Consider it as lesson-learned from one of the newer participants. Now, back to the regularly scheduled Goodthink.