OK, the Corona Virus Isn't Going Away. Now What?

[Anderton]

However, any business that demands to see a vaccine passport won't get my money. My personal medical information is private and will remain so.

 

Well, not really. Specific physical attributes are required by some jobs. For example, an airline can "demand" that you don't have a history of seizures. Warehouses can "demand" that you are capable of lifting boxes of a certain weight. Mostly this is about avoiding liability, which is a decision made by private businesses. So for example, it would make perfect sense for a cruise line to ask if you had been vaccinated. Otherwise, if a bunch of passengers came down with covid, the cruise line could be sued for negligence, and probably lose the suit. If they required a vaccine passport, they could argue they took "all reasonable precautions."

 

Chip, read what I said in my post about VERS, I think you are misinformed as well about how it works. Short form: it collects stats on how many have died after receiving the vaccine, not from the vaccine. Over time, the data will be analyzed, and then people will be able to make more definitive statements about the degree of cause and effect.

 

I totally agree with Chip's statement that "this is war" (humans are in a war against the COVID19 virus).

 

In world war II, Great Britain had blackouts to make night bombing more difficult. Can you imagine if someone had said "no government is going to tell ME I can't turn on the lights if I want to read, or drive with my brights on." This was not entirely without problems, like people bumping into things or falling down stairs because they'd forgotten a flashlight and couldn't see where they going. However, bombs raining down on them would likely have been more problematic.

[Notes_Norton]

I am of the opinion that the government should force everyone who is a healthy candidate for the vaccine to get it. I agree, it's war.

 

However, I know that won't happen.

So here is my second solution.

The vaccine costs the taxpayers about $80 per dose (so I've read).

...So...

If you are physically able to get the vaccine and refuse, and you get COVID; The government covers the first $80 of your treatment. Anything else MUST be paid by you -- in advance, or you simply don't get treated. You are on your own, and you must accept full responsibility for your decision.

 

Why should I have to indirectly pay thousands of dollars per case because some person would rather believe a politician, pundit, propagandist, preacher or social media poster instead of the experts in the field of controlling pandemics?

 

If you refuse the vaccine, you should be responsible for the doctor/hospital/medicine/caregiver bills. Accept the responsibility for your decision.

 

Insights, incites and a minor rant by Notes

[KuruPrionz]

However, any business that demands to see a vaccine passport won't get my money. My personal medical information is private and will remain so.

 

If your doctor's office has staff that writes everything by hand, and/or uses a typewriter then you may have private medical information.

If your doctor's office staff uses computers, the odds of your medical information being "private" are slim and none.

Do you make your appointments online or receive notifications online (this is very common)?

 

Most likely, the computer the staff member uses is connected to a LAN and also has email, which is used for communications, including consultations with other medical professionals regarding specific conditions and patients (to say nothing of being hacked, which is always another possibility/probability).

If you've been to a hospital, forget about it. There are many whom you do not know and will never meet who have or can access your medical information.

 

It's out of your hands and out of your control and has been for a long time.

The concept of privacy regarding medical information is an illusion. You may have even signed off on permission to share your information and are unaware of it, unless you've read the fine print on every document you've ever signed this is very likely if not inevitable.

 

Sorry, probably not the news you want to hear, the real world isn't always pretty.

[David Emm]

Now What is currently including self-defense tweezing of Memorymode, so as to get away from asking Now What as often. I hate to seem overly callous, because the suffering isn't lost on me, but I've been soaked in both Science and dystopian tales for years, so part of this strikes me as the Natural Selection Follies I've been expecting. Half-assed total vaccination percentages just encourage the next mutation. I feel as if people are screaming that the sky is neon pink, but it still looks blue to me.

 

I got the vax, so back to my ginormous, reverb-slathered Moog pads.

[Anderton]

OK, this thread on the Corona virus isn't going away, now what?

 

Has this thread caused anybody to change their mind, either pro or con, regarding the vaccine?

 

I doubt it. And I doubt that it will, because people are invested in their positions. Besides, so many people have gotten the vaccine, it's too late for them to change their minds, even if they wanted to. The only people who can change their minds are people who haven't gotten it.

 

Originally, I wasn't convinced I was going to get the vaccine. I've never had a flu shot, and (knock on wood) I've been pretty healthy. I exercise, eat good food, and (mostly) minimize stress. Besides, I avoided people (which I tend to do anyway), wore a mask, practiced social distancing, and was very careful. I also wasn't convinced I hadn't already had it, and no, I don't trust the medical or political establishment much.

 

But then the stats started coming in. I talked to people who worked in hospitals. I talked to people high up within the CDC. I talked to political cult members and conspiracy theory believers.

 

Ultimately, I know how math works, and I know how to calculate odds.

 

Done deal, got the jab as soon as I was eligible.

 

The only thing I've done that was remotely risky was going to Summer NAMM. But I would not have gone if I truly felt I was going to be at risk.

 

So I'll keep doing what I'm doing, put up with not being able to do some things I used to be able to do, wait for this to end, and if it doesn't end, watch people continue to rip each other apart because of fear. If I need to get a booster shot, I'll get a booster.

 

Seems pretty cut-and-dried.

[Notes_Norton]

I've never had a flu shot either. In the last 15 years I was sick once, a 2-day cold. One day of sneezing, one day of coughing and next day back to normal. I've been gigging since the 1960s and have never-ever called in sick or missed the downbeat for any reason.

 

I've got a great immune system, I don't even get sick once a decade, and when I do it's a mild case.

 

A relative of mine is a world-famous doctor among other doctors. He has been on the front-line all over the world for both lecturing other doctors and treating epidemics and other disasters. He published over 100 papers in peer-review, respected, medical journals. He was one of the first to determine that COVID is more of a blood disease than a respiratory tract disease. He told me that about 1/3 of the survivors of both severe and mild cases end up with permanent damage to their brain, lungs, heart, kidneys, liver and other major organs.

 

I got the vaccine as soon as it was available. I like my brain, lungs and the rest of me.

 

And to answer your question, no, this thread hasn't convinced me that I made the wrong decision.

 

Notes

[KuruPrionz]

Craig, I'm sure you weren't expecting this thread to go the way it did but I've seen tons of forum threads in different places get WAY more volatile than this one has, so pat yourself on the back for a great job of moderating!

 

I got very sick one year decades ago from the flu so I decided to start getting the flu shots. I've never been sick again.

The after effects of my second Moderna vaccine last March felt like the flu for a couple of days, not too bad and a tiny price to pay to know that my odds of being hospitalized with Covid are slim and none.

 

Yes, I will get a booster if one is recommended. Recently I got some good health insurance and started making the rounds. Various medical personnel, including my foot surgeon, have told me in no uncertain terms that the only patients they are treating at St Joes for Covid were not vaccinated. That is 100%.

 

We've had a good percentage of compliance up here and it has slowed the onslaught. Daily, the there is a consensus on the world news (I look at quite a few sources) that the current hot spots are all areas with a low percentile of the population that is vaccinated. It could take a long time for those areas to show significant population shrinkage but dead people don't learn and can't teach so the defiance in the name of "freedom" (is a lung transplant really freedom?" will continue unabated and we will see more variants spring up. Some of them may not be too bad, others will be deadly. It is not the goal of the virus to kill, it does better if it can infest the host and survive. But, mutation is mindless, it is also an experiment.

 

I am truly grateful for the incredible science that is being used to save those of us who are sensible enough to get the vaccination. Cheers, Kuru

[Chip McDonald]

Chip, read what I said in my post about VERS, I think you are misinformed as well about how it works. Short form: it collects stats on how many have died after receiving the vaccine, not from the vaccine. Over time, the data will be analyzed, and then people will be able to make more definitive statements about the degree of cause and effect.

 

The 11,000 number was being trotted out by anti-vaxxers by referencing VAERS, which is *why* I wrote it is a *report* tool* because it's not evidence of anything. I've wrote as such in either this thread or somewhere else here when someone else was referencing numbers from VAERS as being proof of something.

 

 

I totally agree with Chip's statement that "this is war" (humans are in a war against the COVID19 virus).

 

In world war II, Great Britain had blackouts to make night bombing more difficult. Can you imagine if someone had said "no government is going to tell ME I can't turn on the lights if I want to read, or drive with my brights on."

 

 

I literally told a variation of that to a student yesterday for the same reasons, except my example was making people turn off the lights on the West coast, to thwart a potential Japanese attack. In discussions with my father, who was a kid during WWII, there were a lot of subtle little things that was expected, whether it was the army going door to door collecting rubber - maybe the tires off of a car - or taking control of a factory to produce items needed. People went along with it in order to win the war. It made sense, nobody argued about it.

 

Or spreading misinformation. Which is what people are doing with covid right now.

[Chip McDonald]

Placeholder:

 

Yesterday I had 2 guitar students out with covid. One was short, texted "got virus think going hospital", the other one "don't feel like the lesson today, wife and I tested positive, out of breath walking around the house".

 

The last time I got a brief "I'm in the hospital can't breathe" text I never heard from the guy again. Both in their early 20s, and physically fit - they're military. It's bizarre the military hasn't required the vaccine, because I'm quite sure the Navy had a problem with it crippling some ships last year, not to mention the generals and admirals that were debilitated with it. It's idiotic people are worried about Russian and Chinese hackers, when the virus could put the military completely out of commission. Given what I know of their non-existent vaccination program (basically, it was "if you want to get it you can"), attitudes, the U.S. Army could very quickly have a really bad problem. A true national security issue, ignored.

[Anderton]

The vaccine costs the taxpayers about $80 per dose (so I've read). So...If you are physically able to get the vaccine and refuse, and you get COVID; The government covers the first $80 of your treatment. Anything else MUST be paid by you -- in advance, or you simply don't get treated. You are on your own, and you must accept full responsibility for your decision.

 

That's actually pretty clever. And I don't see how ANY anti-vax person would object, because they're always saying that people must take personal responsibility.

[Notes_Norton]

The vaccine costs the taxpayers about $80 per dose (so I've read). So...If you are physically able to get the vaccine and refuse, and you get COVID; The government covers the first $80 of your treatment. Anything else MUST be paid by you -- in advance, or you simply don't get treated. You are on your own, and you must accept full responsibility for your decision.

 

That's actually pretty clever. And I don't see how ANY anti-vax person would object, because they're always saying that people must take personal responsibility.

Thanks.

 

Perhaps if we all wrote to "our" representatives, that could happen. (Don't hold your breath.)

 

As a matter of fact, I sent that to mine and so far have only received the robot "We have received your letter" response.

 

I actually think that's a much better idea than doing things like holding a vaccine lottery.

 

The anti-vaxxers are like daredevils. If a guy/gal climbing K2 falls off the mountain and dies, he/she has no one to blame but himself/herself. Same for someone who refuses the vaccine.

 

BTW we need some gender-neutral pronouns.

 

Notes

[Anderton]

I don't know how accurate this is, but Israeli studies seem discouraging about long-term efficacy. I wouldn't make any plans for Christmas just yet. Or maybe even Halloween, if you got vaccinated in April.

[Notes_Norton]

I've already booked a Christmas and NYE gig. They both are in a 900 slot RV resort, and 600 of the sites are usually filled with French Canadians all winter. I do hope the border is open by then.

 

The rec room is not air-conditioned, so the windows will be open, and the Canadians seem to be more serious about getting vaccinated than the people in the USA..

 

If and when there is a booster shot for either of the mRNA vaccines, I'll go for it.

 

Hopefully by then, most of the anti-vaxxers will have caught COVID and either developed their own antibodies or croaked. Either way, we may get some herd immunity.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[David Emm]

> Perhaps if we all wrote to "our" representatives, that could happen. (Don't hold your breath.)

 

I saw a drama years back wherein a man says "Why don't you write your Congressman?" The other says "I tried that. I got back a form letter telling me to grab my ankles." Often true.

 

I believe we're mostly built to operate at 33 1/3, with a few forays into 45. Everything is now set to 78 on a good day and on bad ones, its 156. Oh, I hate being flung into a wall like that before I've had my first Pinhead Colada with breakfast.

 

A woman whose son died a week after being COVID-hospitalized says she still won't accept the vaccine. Personally, I think the end of "Game Of Thrones" was completely correct. Just put her in the front row screaming about the radical dragon agenda and bring on the fire. Historically, sufficient fire has been very good at moving things along.

[David Emm]

>

BTW we need some gender-neutral pronouns. ;)Notes

 

"Anti-self-preservationist?" "Science Tefloneers?" "Bluntskulls?" "Gene coding error?" "Accordionist?" "Human Hot Pocket?"

 

If there is a third mRNA vax offered, I'll go for it. Its an acid test for the method on a large scale. The mechanism encourages me. This is the best (worst) way to see where the numbers end up going under pressure.

[Notes_Norton]

I think we should retire the expression, "Avoid it like the plague", given how little effort people put into avoiding an actual plague.

[RABid]

After my brain surgery the expression "I need that like I need another hole in my head" took on an entirely new meaning.

[Chip McDonald]

There is real concern among some that the vaccines may be creating the Delta variant.

 

 

For starters, from a literal standpoint that's complete garbage. What you seem to be alluding to is a theory put forth by Bret Weinstein.

 

 

 

His "position" is that by being vaccinated, human immune systems are effectively challenging the virus to mutate further from the original strain, into more dangerous forms.

 

WHY HE'S WRONG:

 

1) the more people are vaccinated, the less it spreads - reducing the iterations *allowing it to mutate*;

2) to not get vaccinated means allowing the R0 value to go well over 2, which results in millions more dead;

3) it ignores the further strategies of distancing, masking, quarantine and isolation, reducing the iterative count.

4) it presumes natural immunity will work - which, given the fact that people that have previously had it seem to be about 50% likely to get infected again months later, is a flawed premise.

 

His "position" presumes the entire population is vaccinated, and will be intermixing biomes equally - as an alternate to the same thing happening without being vaccinated. Which is complete rubbish.

 

If I'm wrong in the above, explain where. No, I am not impressed by his credentials, or his knack for verbal exposition on fringe science.

 

The vaccines keep you from dying, and for delta at least 25% less likely to spread it. Which isn't great, but it's SIGNIFICANT.

 

 

45,000 dead and 100's of thousands with side effects.

 

Can you cite your source?

 

Also consider that even if that was factual, can you do the math on the statistical significance of 45,000 vs. 163 million people?

 

Do you understand that effectively speaking you shouldn't be getting in a car, consuming anything with sugar, certainly not eating red meat, only breathing air that has gone through a HEPA filter, eating only certified organic food, among a plethora of other things that has a more significant statistical likelihood of harming you? Do you eat fried foods? Do you know what the Maillard reaction is? Do you know what acrylamide is? Do you eat french fries?

 

 

Again:

What is the % of the whole vaccinated population are you using as your reason for not getting vaccinated?

[Chip McDonald]

At this point I find it curious that, given the anti-science brigader's position being based on conspiracy theory based philosophy - "I don't trust the government to get vaccinated", "I don't trust pharma", "I don't trust Bill Gates ", "wearing masks are meant to make you accept LGBT ideas" (yes, I've seen that on Twitter) - it's all based on "theories".

 

Yet amazingly, none of these people have considered the fact that *their demographic is being affected more than others*.

Thanks to history-cleansing between about 1910 and right before WWII, the general public knows nothing of what the eugenics movement was, or what "Malthusian trap" means. This group has apparently failed to notice that the feeble minded, the less-caucasian, the unfortunate to be born into a 3rd world country, those not able to function in a shark-end stage capitalist society *are the ones that are, or will be, decimated by SARS-COV2*.

 

They worship their Orange Jesus, who was fortunate enough to be flown to a hospital to receive world-class leading edge health care - while they do not have the access to good healthcare, and must pay lifestyle-changing amounts to gain access to poor, corporate-profiteering based "health care". They know nothing of the attitudes of scientists in chemical companies coming out of WWI into WWII, in all nations: if "they" wanted to do something, they're blind to the fact that THEY WOULD BE THE TARGET.

 

Here's a fun conspiracy theory: if the Chinese Communist Party wanted to make a virus, to what aim would it be? The state that has gulags for ethnic minorities, prejudice against Tibet, a self-imposed financial scaling system against the poor, and incentives against breeding?

 

...and if there is a Malthusian bent among a certain group of science elitists - and Bill Gates - what would be their reasoning for making a vaccine *against the virus* that seemingly accomplishes THE GOALS THE ANTI-SCIENCE BRIGADE INSIST IS THE REASON THEY DON'T WANT TO GET VACCINATED?

 

 

It's so very clever, THAT idea triggers my conspiracy theory mind. If there is a conspiracy theory in action, it would be that: "how can we lower the population? What would be a clever way to SELECTIVELY take out the median and sub-median I.Q.?". Which would be crazy-pills talk 20 years ago, but is just par for the course set today. Having seen how the ultra-clever thinking of Roger Ailes and his cohorts have not just figured out how to SELECTIVELY manipulate demographics for political gain, but that they obviously INTENDED to do so, based on morally bad positions - *why their ilk would not take the next step*?.

 

You really don't care for poor people, dumb people, and you want to reduce the population? Seriously? Like CCP party members might think, or immoral political figures/cronies, oligarchs? SARS-COV2 fits the bill, when combined with a vaccine that only the intelligent and fortunate take. When taken in conjunction with the notion that a lab possibly made the virus, and was ostensibly supposed to be in existence to *stop* such a thing - there is no suspicion there. It's been flipped to *the thing that could potentially stop it, in the unlikely event that everybody had access and the will to take it*.

 

Uhg, yuk. *That* makes sense unfortunately, in a world of sociopaths/psychopaths in power. But sure, back to our regularly scheduled pandemic....

[RABid]

Did the smallpox vaccine cause smallpox to mutate into something more dangerous? No. The vaccine wiped it out. Covid mutations are not caused by vaccine. If it is going to mutate, it is going to mutate. In fact, logically, scientifically, and numerically the vaccine is most likely slowing the mutations by giving the virus fewer chances to mutate.

[Anderton]

At this point I find it curious that, given the anti-science brigader's position being based on conspiracy theory based philosophy - "I don't trust the government to get vaccinated", "I don't trust pharma", "I don't trust Bill Gates ", "wearing masks are meant to make you accept LGBT ideas" (yes, I've seen that on Twitter) - it's all based on "theories". [etc.]

 

There's no real advantage to putting politics in this thread...politics is what got this whole thing into a mess in the first place.

 

People will educate themselves, or not. They'll take the vaccine, or not.

 

Human nature isn't suddenly going to change because there's a pandemic. People will drive while drunk, or not. Teenagers will use birth control, or not. People will become addicted to crack, or not. From time to time, there are changes: For example, smoking has gone way down in the US...but look how long it took to turn that around.

 

As the thread title asks, "OK, the coronavirus isn't going away. Now what?" I didn't expect it would still be here, but I underestimated the willingness of people to protect themselves and others .As to "now what?," for me, the answer is to try to post meaningful data for those who want vetted information, avoid large groups of people, stay as healthy as I can, and keep doing the kind of work I've been doing my whole life.

[techristian]

But maybe the coronavirus IS going away or never was really as bad as they said.

 

New data from the CDC

 

https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html

 

"CDC encourages laboratories to consider adoption of a multiplexed method that can facilitate detection and differentiation of SARS-CoV-2 and influenza viruses."

 

Does this mean that the PCR couldn't really differentiate between common flu and covid19, in the first place , and now only a BATTERY of tests will suffice?

 

So have we been locked down and in panic for the past 16 months under false pretenses ?

 

 

 

Dan

[spokenward]

No.

 

It's the information virus.

 

FR24 tracked this to Facebook and medical disinfo sites.

 

"Viral publications distort CDC announcement on COVID-19 PCR test "

 

https://www.fr24news.com/a/2021/07/viral-publications-distort-cdc-announcement-on-covid-19-pcr-test.html

 

People are deliberately f'ing with us. It is evil.

[Jazzmammal]

Chip, I agree with a lot of what you say but MY GOD MAN, GIVE IT A REST!! You don't have to respond to Every.Single.Point a dissenter makes.

 

I haven't posted in this thread for many moons because it was rapidly devolving and I can see nothing's changed. The same three or four usual suspects are writing the same thing over and over and over and...The original point of this was about gigs and COVID and that's a simple subject to discuss with little more to say but getting political about fake news and COVID? Oh my what a rich feeding ground that is! I decided to jump back in just to say Craig, you are an amazing man. No way could I moderate this thread without losing my mind and blowing the whole thing up.

 

As for gigs I did get booked at the last minute for the July 4th gigs on Catalina Island that I've been doing for the last 5 or 6 years. Luckily that was before LA County reinstituted the indoor mask mandate. No way would I wear a mask for the indoor yacht club gig and if I was told that up front I would have passed on it, the other three were all outdoors. The boat going over was packed and the island was very busy. No news about that being some kind of superspreader event but then California has one of the highest vaccination rates in the country. One thing about news reporting, isn't it funny no news reports from the left or right talks about total cases any more only about total vaccinations? They used to have that big chart that took up a third of the screen just screaming about the total number of cases which from what I can tell is about 34.5 million. All those cases also help with the herd immunity concept, no? They should be added to the total vaccination number. That's the media playing up the negative, not the positive.

 

As for my thoughts about the vaccine, I'm 75 and get my medical through the W. Los Angeles VA. I got an email last December saying the vaccine was available to all vets 75 and over so I got the first shot mid December and the second February 6th. I couldn't get it fast enough, I was there the day after that email. I do not believe the government can somehow force people to get vaccinated, that's a personal health decision however....private businesses can do whatever they want including restaurants, airlines, cruise ships, whomever. I have a pic of my CDC vaccination card in my phone, if a business wants to see it to let me in, there it is. While I do resent having to wear a mask in order to accomodate anti vaxxers, I'm not all that worked up about it. I've been wearing masks for so long anyway, what's the harm to throw it on to go inside a grocery store again? Do I think everybody should get vaccinated? Of course I do but people have the right to make that decision. A pandemic would have to be a whole lot worse than COVID for the government to have to declare martial law and truly go door to door and force the vaccines on people. I shudder at the thought but it could happen I guess.

 

As for tracking vaccine deaths using that database, that's the same argument I was making a year ago when anybody who died in an ER or hospital who tested positive was counted as a COVID death even that poor guy who showed up at the ER with three gunshot wounds and died that evening. He also had COVID so it's a COVID death. Somehow that never seemed right to me and I got raked over the coals for that. Just like this new database, to me it requires a whole lot of research and analysis to determine how many COVID deaths in hospitals were actually due to COVID and not other things. Just like now, there's very little mention of underlying conditions ie obesity with current hospitalizations/deaths. You can't say someone is fat and it's ruining their heath oh no, a 220 pound 24 year old woman is now a "curvy supermodel".

 

Bob

[Anderton]

Hey Bob...thanks for checking in.

 

Chip, I agree with a lot of what you say but MY GOD MAN, GIVE IT A REST!! You don't have to respond to Every.Single.Point a dissenter makes.

 

I get that he's frustrated, but venting here won't change anyone's minds. If they haven't figured it out by now, they won't figure it out from what Chip says.

 

I decided to jump back in just to say Craig, you are an amazing man. No way could I moderate this thread without losing my mind and blowing the whole thing up.

 

Well, these are extraordinary circumstances. The bottom line: everyone is consumed by fear. Their fears vary, but the extent of the fear does not. People need a place to vent. Some folks here skirt the line, but...these are extraordinary circumstances.

 

One thing about news reporting, isn't it funny no news reports from the left or right talks about total cases any more only about total vaccinations? They used to have that big chart that took up a third of the screen just screaming about the total number of cases which from what I can tell is about 34.5 million. All those cases also help with the herd immunity concept, no? They should be added to the total vaccination number. That's the media playing up the negative, not the positive.

 

The information is still there, you just have to look harder for it. US stats:

 

New cases average on July 26: 56,635

14-day change: +144%

New deaths average on July 26: 275

14-day change: +7%

Hospitalized average on July 26: 34,238

14-day change: +72%

 

Total reported cases: 34.595,863

Total deaths: 611,096

 

Cases are now averaging higher than the peak of the first surge, and we'll surpass the second surge soon. Hopefully we won't surpass the third one, because so much of the population is vaccinated.

 

Does this mean that the PCR couldn't really differentiate between common flu and covid19, in the first place , and now only a BATTERY of tests will suffice?

 

So have we been locked down and in panic for the past 16 months under false pretenses ?

 

Dan, you gotta dig one layer deeper than the sewage that floats to the top of the media. Average number of people who die from the flu each year in the US varies between 20K to 60K. It's crazy to think that all of a sudden, flu deaths exploded by 10x for no reason whatsoever during the past year.

 

Covid is far more dangerous than flu in terms of lasting effects.

 

As for tracking vaccine deaths using that database, that's the same argument I was making a year ago when anybody who died in an ER or hospital who tested positive was counted as a COVID death even that poor guy who showed up at the ER with three gunshot wounds and died that evening. He also had COVID so it's a COVID death. Somehow that never seemed right to me and I got raked over the coals for that. Just like this new database, to me it requires a whole lot of research and analysis to determine how many COVID deaths in hospitals were actually due to COVID and not other things.

 

Well, because there is no definitive answer, you have to make educated guesses. For the sake of argument, let's suppose 50% of the people attributed to dying from covid died from something else (which is highly unlikely). That's still 300,000+ people in the US alone, or 15x to 5x the maximum people who died from flu, which is the closest related disease.

[Anderton]

So here's the real problem:

 

Everyone is spoiled. They simply can't understand that we're dealing with a moving target, from something on a scale the world hasn't experienced since over a century ago. They didn't know how to handle it then, and trust me on this, there aren't a lot of people from then who are alive to give us guidance.

 

So the CDC issues contradictory information, and people impugn evil motives, lying, suppressing facts, etc.

 

BULL.

 

They give the best advice they have based on the a) the evidence they have at the moment, and b) pre-existing filters ("well it was like x when something similar happened").

 

People are getting all insane that there are a significant number of breakthrough cases among those already vaccinated. "But you said the vaccines were effective against the variants! You are lying weasels!" Seriously? Like testing stuff in a lab is the same as what happens when something gets involved with millions of people, with millions of variations in their health conditions, the prevalence of the virus, the nature of the variants, and the like? How can ANYONE know for sure that efficacy will last six months, or 12 months, or whatever without collecting data six or 12 months down the road? You make your best guess, cross your fingers, and if you're so inclined, pray.

 

Manufacturers say LEDs will have half their brilliance in 100 years. Check back in 100 years and let me know if that's true.

 

Anyone who doesn't understand a highly transmissable global pandemic is a moving target that's full of uncertainty did not benefit from a good school system growing up, or skipped out of science class. But that's another issue.

 

I really wish people would read my posts before responding. I put a lot of effort into these, I'm not just venting.

[Anderton]

My contact at Vanderbilt was present at some meetings today. Cases are exploding, and they're trying to figure out how to handle it.

 

For those who say it's a question of personal freedom (just to be clear, this isn't aimed at anyone specific here), that's ridiculous. You are part of society. Yes, you have the freedom do drive drunk and kill someone. What does that do to the personal freedom of the person you killed? You'll go to jail, and still be free to exist. The person you killed won't have that freedom.

 

So sure, feel free to exercise your personal freedom. You have the freedom to pay for the increase in health insurance rates caused by people getting sick who didn't need to, you have the freedom to find alternatives for the people who've had heart attacks but there's no room at the ICU because it's filled with Covid patients, you have the freedom to apologize to the health care workers who have sacrificed their health and sanity only to have idiots accuse them of perpetuating a hoax and getting kickbacks from the government, and you have the freedom to cover the medical expenses, or worst case funerals, from people you infected while exercising your personal freedom - while stomping all over theirs.

 

The vaccine is all we have right now that's been shown to work. If you don't like that, come up with something better.

[KuruPrionz]

The vaccine is all we have right now that's been shown to work. If you don't like that, come up with something better.

 

Kudos Craig, somehow this reminds me of something I heard in Fresno and kept - "It's like pushing jelly up a hill with a rope."

[techristian]

Does this mean that the PCR couldn't really differentiate between common flu and covid19, in the first place , and now only a BATTERY of tests will suffice?

 

So have we been locked down and in panic for the past 16 months under false pretenses ?

 

Dan, you gotta dig one layer deeper than the sewage that floats to the top of the media. Average number of people who die from the flu each year in the US varies between 20K to 60K. It's crazy to think that all of a sudden, flu deaths exploded by 10x for no reason whatsoever during the past year.

 

Covid is far more dangerous than flu in terms of lasting effects.

 

Craig, where did you get that 10X idea from. If you look at the OVERALL death rate comparisons worldwide , 2020 was no worse than 2019 or 2018. Those deaths ATTRIBUTED to covid19 is far different than actual covid19 deaths. Also check actual FLU deaths, or should we say pneumonia deaths, caused by flu. They have always been high for the elderly. The problem with the vaccine is that now, HEALTHY YOUNG PEOPLE are dying from the shot, who would have had minimal risk of actually getting the virus. It may be 1/1000 young people but still cardiac problems in 20 year olds should have halted these vaccines.

 

As to "CASES" PCR test has been proven FRAUDULENT by its inventor, Kary Mullis just before he died. So number of "cases" is meaningless. My Mother was "TB positive" for most of her life, but no one could ever get TB from my mother, because the disease was DEAD. Same with many of those tested positive with the 1 trillion X magnification of PCR.

 

Dan

[Chip McDonald]

There's no real advantage to putting politics in this thread...politics is what got this whole thing into a mess in the first place.

 

"Anti-science brigade" is not a political party. But partisan politics is *why the situation is so bad* and ignoring isn't going to make it go away.

 

People will educate themselves, or not. They'll take the vaccine, or not.

 

I disagree. Some people go whichever way the wind blows. They see the majority of those around them ignoring protocol, they will as well. When left alone, you're right, they won't educated themselves. When they realize there are plenty of people around them that has, they might change. But show them you're indifferent to their decision - *even though it affects everybody* - there is no social pressure to change. This is effectively about manners: is it or isn't it bad manners to blow your nose on your shirt, cough without covering your mouth, sneeze in someone's face? This is no different; some people, if allowed to, would not do any of those things if there is no social pressure to make it a norm.

 

How has mask wearing in Japan become such a social norm? Is it because people coughing on trains was tolerated, nobody spoke out against sick people sneezing in crowds? It's not *socially* tolerated. Not wearing masks, not distancing, not getting vaccinated is *tolerated*, and that is why it's a problem.

 

 

Human nature isn't suddenly going to change because there's a pandemic.

 

 

It changed in Korea after SARS. "Something" made people wear masks in other parts of Asia.

 

People will drive while drunk, or not. Teenagers will use birth control, or not. People will become addicted to crack, or not. From time to time, there are changes: For example, smoking has gone way down in the US...but look how long it took to turn that around.

 

A person can be drunk without harming you; there is social pressure not to drive drunk, in addition to laws. There is social pressure to use birth control. Smoking around others who are not is no longer considered acceptable - a perfect example of social behavior changing.

 

I knew a guy years ago that insisted "nobody is telling me I can't smoke where I want to!!!". Very adamant about it. Does he still smoke in restaurants, standing next to strangers? No. It's not tolerated, *there was no question it would be tolerated*. It wasn't "don't say anything about the people smoking", or "the people smoking are a Particular Political Party, so you must not mention that". It wasn't accepted. We are accepting nonsense every time it's not addressed.

 

 

As the thread title asks, "OK, the coronavirus isn't going away. Now what?" I didn't expect it would still be here, but I underestimated the willingness of people to protect themselves and others .As to "now what?," for me, the answer is to try to post meaningful data for those who want vetted information, avoid large groups of people, stay as healthy as I can, and keep doing the kind of work I've been doing my whole life.

 

 

"Now what?" asks for what we are going to do? The singular most important aspect of the pandemic IS the effect The Party That Shall Not Be Named has had on public health. People have, and are dying because of it. Is the answer to "now what?" "let others wreck what's left of the nation and public health, because we don't think *any* of them will change"?

 

 

People *will* change. I've "converted" maybe a dozen hard core Unmentionable Party members to being anti-partisan, and I've gotten at least 3 people I know to get vaccinated, despite their Unmentionable Party affiliation. In the later cases, those 3 people each have spouses and children, as well as work with others. If I had just said "oh well, your leaders say the vaccine is no use and the virus a hoax" *they wouldn't have gotten vaccinated*.