OK, the Corona Virus Isn't Going Away. Now What?

[KuruPrionz]

So far we have only been able to see some of the SHORT TERM side effects. 2-5 years from now we will have a clearer picture....but I'm sure that no matter how many die, it will still be blamed on the unvaccinated as it is today....even in blue states with 90% vaccinated.

 

Dan

 

There are no states with 90% vaccination rates, all states have many anti vaxxers who resist. It is possible (and likely) that we will see the ratio of vaccinated rise over time.

There will be 2 reasons for that, first - some people will come to their senses and get the vaccination and second - not all of the 97% percent of hospitalized unvaccinated COVID patients are going to survive so the percentage of unvaccinated will inevitably shrink as they are buried in the ground.

 

2-5 years from now we will know much more about the debilitating long term effects of COVID as well. And if current trends continue they will cost our health care systems a fortune. It will be more difficult to schedule treatment for other illnesses, unvaccinated people are already crowding out hospital treatment areas needed for other patients.

[Anderton]

So far we have only been able to see some of the SHORT TERM side effects. 2-5 years from now we will have a clearer picture....but I'm sure that no matter how many die, it will still be blamed on the unvaccinated as it is today....even in blue states with 90% vaccinated.

 

Dan

 

More pins to knock down...

 

The origins of mRNA technology date back 30 years. The first findings were published in 2005. Experience with the flu and HIV were instrumental in developing this technology.

 

Here's an excerpt from an article you can read to understand the origins of the mRNA vaccines, whose development was already well along before covid reared its ugly head. Just this one except tells you a lot:

 

SIt can take years for lab breakthroughs to become market-ready products, and this is exactly what happened with mRNA. Soon after Karikó and Weissman"s work was published in the mid-2000s, visionary companies recognized the implications of mRNA for vaccines and quickly licensed the technology. Moderna was founded in 2010 to produce vaccines based on the new mRNA technology, and the company had been growing as a vaccine manufacturer when the COVID-19 virus appeared.

 

Moderna was not the only one working on an mRNA approach to vaccines. BioNTech is a German company established to work on immunotherapies in 2008 by a Turkish couple, who immigrated to Germany. Like Moderna, BioNTech recognized the value of the mRNA technology for vaccine design years ago and licensed the technology. In 2013, BioNTech hired Karikó as a vice president and began to develop mRNA technologies for use against many diseases. BioNTech"s efforts in vaccine development greatly increased in 2018, when Pfizer joined BioNTech"s effort with a research and development agreement to develop mRNA-based vaccines against influenza. It was a natural collaboration because Pfizer, a U.S. company in New York, has been a major vaccine producer for a long time. When the pandemic began, Pfizer/BioNTech immediately turned their attention to developing vaccines against COVID-19.

 

There's more to the story than just that, check out the link.

 

True, we'll all know a lot more about covid, vaccines, etc. in 2-5 years. But we're not dealing with Thalidomide. Times have changed, rules have changed, we now have advanced computers and years of research spent on the technology used in the covid vaccine. It didn't just get invented on a cocktail napkin over dinner a few months ago.

 

However, we don't need 2-5 years to know what the effects of covid are. Like this:

 

Micheal Freedy was not opposed to vaccination, his fiancee said. Like many Americans who have yet to get their coronavirus shots, the 39-year-old father just wanted to wait and learn more about how people reacted to the vaccines. 'All we were doing is waiting one year,' [said] Jessica DuPreez, 37. Then everything changed. 'I should have gotten the damn vaccine,' [Freedy] texted DuPreez...Freedy, who is listed in her phone as 'My Heart,' died on Thursday, leaving behind young children, including a 17-month-old. 'My kids don"t have a dad anymore because we hesitated...I would take a bad reaction to the vaccine over having to bury my husband. I would take that any day.'

[Anderton]

Well done Craig, thanks for taking the time to go deeper. I have always been a skeptic but some people have the integrity to get past that and I listen. You are one of those people, you do the research and write a balanced response.

 

Just to be clear, this isn't a hobby for me. My wife works in admin at Venderbilt. She knows what's going on, and has an underlying condition. My kid has an incurable blood disease (her blood is at several research institutes, because they want to find out why she's doing as well as she is). I'm in the target demographic for dying if I get infected. I didn't want to lose them, or me, to either covid or a vaccine...so I've done a lot of research. This isn't about scoring political points, it's about making sure people I love don't get very sick or die. And they've made it very clear they don't want to lose me.

 

I've been helped along that path thanks to info from Vanderbilt and other medical, not political, sources. I talk with people associated with the CDC (not the public faces, the people crunching numbers). I know, and talk regularly, with front-line workers, and understand the hell they go through watching people gasping for air, and dying.

 

I also understood their joy when the vaccine came out, and the caseloads went down. And unfortunately, now I understand their frustration when they continue to see people dying who, for whatever reason, decided they didn't need to protect themselves. They thought they were special. Covid didn't agree.

 

As mentioned, I was initially reluctant. However, the overwhelming, undeniable preponderance of evidence is clear - you're safer if you get the vaccine. Period. That is being proven right now with rising cases, rising hospitalizations, and rising deaths - among the unvaccinated.

 

I am very concerned that at some point, I'll ask the same question I've asked about other people - "Haven't heard from Dan for a while, is he okay?" I don't want to hear the same answer I've heard too many times: "Oh, you didn't know?"

[Notes_Norton]

My brother-in-law is a world-famous doctor among other doctors.

 

He lectures other doctors in Europe, North & South America, Africa, Asia, Australia, and Oceana. He has published well over 100 papers in respected, peer-reviewed, scientific journals.

 

He knows the after effects of COVID as he has been on the front line. Over 1/3 of surviving COVID patients, from the asymptomatic to the hospitalized end up with brain damage.

 

I'll take the vaccine, thank you.

 

And I'll say it again. If it were not for the anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers, we in the USA could have returned to normal by now, as we would have 'herd immunity'.

 

Notes

[Anderton]

And I'll say it again. If it were not for the anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers, we in the USA could have returned to normal by now, as we would have 'herd immunity'.

 

Barring unforeseen circumstances, that's indeed what would have happened. Here's an analogy for the reason some people don't vax:

 

"I'm not going to buy a new car."

"Why?"

"Because it was just built last month. No one has driven it, and it doesn't have any miles on it. How do I know it's safe?"

"Well, they've been building cars for a long time."

"Yeah...but not this one.

[Joe Muscara]

The Costs of Selling Covid Fear

 

Covid vaccines are incredibly effective. The media"s overhyping of new research from the CDC is making people think otherwise.

 

When the CDC changed its guidance on masking earlier this week â recommending, among other things, that even vaccinated people start wearing masks in indoor public spaces in areas of substantial to high Covid transmission â it cited 'unpublished data' as a reason for its decision. The next day, the internal CDC document that seems to have prompted the shift was published â by the Washington Post. And when major news media got a look at, the message they sent vaccinated people was pretty simple: 'Panic!'

 

This reaction was not justified by the actual data in the CDC document. It did show that the Delta variant was, as we"ve known for some time now, far more contagious than previous Covid variants, and that the Covid vaccines were less effective against Delta than they"d been against previous variants. But on the whole, the data strengthened the already-impeccable real-world case for vaccination. The document found that the vaccines are 75â80% effective against Delta, meaning that unvaccinated people are 3x-4x more likely to get infected with Covid. It estimated that vaccinated people are one-eighth as likely to develop even mild symptomatic Covid. And most important, it showed that vaccinated people are 25 times less likely than unvaccinated people to be hospitalized with Covid or to die from it.

[techristian]

This should be my last post in this thread.

 

If you want to understand why I have become such a radical, check out this video of insane FINES in Canada. This clearly has nothing to do with disease, but with tyranny. I will never again be able to travel to the US and it is only a little more than a mile away from my home.

 

https://rumble.com/vkl398-toronto-man-does-everything-right-when-crossing-the-canadau.s.-border-gets-.html

 

Dan

[Jazzmammal]

Some thoughts and questions. I knew from reading some of your previous posts Craig that you were plugged into the system but forgot just how plugged in you are and I think this is the first time you actually gave us some personal info about your family and yourself. In a thread like this that's a leap for you and I for one, appreciate it.

 

Notes it's the same with your brother in law and you've posted about him before but this latest info is really good.

 

First thought is what's the definition of herd immunity with COVID. From what I've read herd immunity varies per virus according to how catchable it is and the Delta variant is high up on that list. The Mayo Clinic is using an "estimate" of 70%.

 

Second thought is the true number of cases in the US since this started. The official number is 35.5 million but just like COVID deaths and the concept of "Excess deaths" over that same period that strongly implies the death numbers is actually 100K-200K higher, wouldn't the actual number of cases be double or even triple of the official number as well? If we use 70 million as the number of cases then we're already above the 70% herd immunity now.

 

Third thought. Any comments from both of you concerning the risk of vaccinated people having all these bad long term health effects if we did catch COVID? I've not read a single thing about that but that lack of reporting implies there is little risk because those effects have been wildly reported already with unvaccinated people so it stands to reason if vaccinated people have these same effects that would be all over the news.

 

Fourth thought. The hard core number of anti vaxxers who will not get get the vaccine regardless. That number appears to be between 25-30%. In spite of fantasy thoughts from a lot of us about forcing them, that simply will never happen in a free country, there will always be that pool of unvaccinated people so going forward there will be more variants because of anti vaxxers here and third world countries who will never reach herd immunity like India, Africa, South America and large parts of Asia. TSA reports that air travel now is well above the 2019 pre pandemic levels so any variants that appear anywhere in the world will be brought back here. That means there will always be a certain number of cases/hospitalizations/deaths for the forseeable future as in the rest of our lifetimes. The term "back to normal" implies back to our pre COVID lives and that will never happen, that genie is out of the bottle. EDIT. Just read this article in the LA Times.

 

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-08-02/covid-vaccine-proof-delta-variant-spread-what-to-know

 

My comment about this other than me cheering, yeah! is I don't think some of this would pass a court challenge especially on the government side. Garcetti talks about a full vaccine mandate for government workers once the FDA gives full approval to the vaccine and I've read about other cities/states saying the same. To me that's unconstitutional and it would go to federal court because state and local governments all receive federal money. Government cannot force a medical procedure on somebody, just think about the ramifications of that if the Supreme Court ok'd it. As for private companies I'll say maybe but if there's a union involved then a definite no. Therefore these sorts of measures won't change the overall anti vaxxer equation.

 

Now, this is my final and most controversial thought. If we've already reached herd immunity and the anti vaxer crowd is basically a well known number what will it take for some of you in this thread to feel "safe enough" considering we will never be 100% safe? At what point do we allow cruise ships to sail from US ports and not freak out if a few catch COVID, kids to go back to school and not freak out when some catch COVID? Iow, what's the point of getting vaccinated if we're required to mask up again and certain activities are being restricted again? What's the justification for that? Does that mean when that happens we're going to shut or partially shut everything down again like maybe this winter? Trust me, we will read all about a complete rinse and repeat of last winter, people are locked up indoors due to weather, the virus is spreading, etc, etc. How long do some of you in this thread intend to go through that? Another year? Two years? Three years? As you pointed out Craig, the vaccines are very effictive and it's the best thing we have. We have accomplished our goals for now and yes, the virus can move the goalposts but does that really matter at this point? We will never be rid of this thing, life is not perfect and risk is a part of life so I think it's time to think in those terms and come to grips with it.

 

Bob

[Anderton]

This should be my last post in this thread.

 

If you want to understand why I have become such a radical, check out this video of insane FINES in Canada. This clearly has nothing to do with disease, but with tyranny. I will never again be able to travel to the US and it is only a little more than a mile away from my home.

 

https://rumble.com/vkl398-toronto-man-does-everything-right-when-crossing-the-canadau.s.-border-gets-.html

 

Dan

 

You're right, that has absolutely nothing to do with the medical aspects of covid, which is what this thread (should) be about. It's about the political aspects. I'm sure you would never expect me to defend the often/sometimes arbitrary or incomprehensible nature of government.

 

I could tell you about how I successfully fought the state of New Mexico when it was trying to "collect" $64,000 in fictional back taxes, and what I felt was the underhanded methods they used. But that has nothing to do with the medical aspects of covid, either. (As to the reason why I won without paying a penny, a word to the wise: Be totally above board when doing your taxes, and keep EVERY SINGLE FINANCIAL record going back at least 7 years - more if they're going to try to float a bogus claim of fraud. Then drown them with so much paperwork they finally realize you're not going to give up, so they go looking for an easier target.)

 

You can be as radical as you want about bad government. But zoom out and look at the big picture. Although Covid has been politicized, there is underlying MEDICAL data that has nothing to do with government, other than eventually becoming public and twisted via special pleading from both sides.

 

Be radical about finding out the truth.

 

If you want the truth about covid, don't ask politicians or web sites with agendas. Ask medical professionals who deal with it every day. Get their data before it becomes politicized, or a way to get clicks to accumulate advertising dollars.

[Notes_Norton]

<...snip...>

 

Now, this is my final and most controversial thought. If we've already reached herd immunity and the anti vaxer crowd is basically a well known number what will it take for some of you in this thread to feel "safe enough" considering we will never be 100% safe? At what point so we allow cruise ships to sail from US ports and not freak out if a few catch COVID, kids to go back to school and not freak out when some catch COVID? Iow, what's the point of getting vaccinated if we're required to mask up again and certain activities are being restricted again? What's the justification for that? Does that mean when that happens we're going to shut or partially shut everything down again like maybe this winter? Trust me, we will read all about a complete rinse and repeat of last winter, people are locked up indoors due to weather, the virus is spreading, etc, etc. How long do some of you in this thread intend to go through that? Another year? Two years? Three years? As you pointed out Craig, the vaccines are very effictive and it's the best thing we have. We have accomplished our goals for now. We will never be rid of this thing, life is not perfect and risk is a part of life so I think it's time to think in those terms and come to grips with it.

 

Bob

FIrst of all, we haven't already reached herd immunity. Yesterday, Florida (led by a governor who made mask mandates and vaccine passports illegal) had the highest number of cases ever, since the beginning of the pandemic. And Florida is also guilty of under-reporting the number of cases, as that same governor (we call him DeathSantis) fired the person who was reporting the truth and refusing to lie, minimizing the number of cases.

 

What will it take? No more cases than we see of polio or bubonic plague would make me feel comfortable. Thanks to the anti-vaxxers, we probably won't see that. How close to that point? I really can't say. I'm going to play it by ear.

 

I like my brain and other organs. I have strong self-preservation instincts. I'm having a great time here, and don't want to go to the great beyond. And what if there is no great beyond? This life is the proverbial bird in the hand. I'm not going hang gliding, and I'm doing my best to avoid COVID. If and when a booster comes out, I'll be in line.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[Jazzmammal]

Ok, so Florida has underreported the number of cases, that was my point nationwide I agree the case count is easily double the published numbers maybe more. All that means is you're that much closer to herd immulity. I just looked at the latest numbers and Florida is basically right there with every body else at 49.1% The entire US is 50.2% so 1.1% is enough for you to call him DeathSantis? Ultra lib California with a Dem governor and a super majority Dem Statehouse is all the way to 53% Big whoop, 4% over Florida, doesn't looks like some huge difference to me.

 

Bob

[Anderton]

I think this is the first time you actually gave us some personal info about your family and yourself. In a thread like this that's a leap for you and I for one, appreciate it.

 

Thanks. I'm a private person, everybody knows about my professional life, but hardly anyone knows anything about my personal life, and what I've had to deal with. Nor do I want anyone to know. I want to be known for what I contribute - not who I am, or how I got here. But in this particular case, I felt those glimpses were important data points behind my comments in this thread.

 

Don't have enough information to comment on thoughts #1 and #2.

 

Third thought. Any comments from both of you concerning the risk of vaccinated people having all these bad long term health effects if we did catch COVID?

 

My understanding is that vaccinated people have mild cases, even to the extent of being asymptomatic. So it seems logical that a mild case would lead to mild side effects overall. All the people I know who are experiencing "long covid" had fairly serious cases to begin with. Of course, that's just anecdotal. I don't know of any studies regarding the severity of long-term sides effects in relation to the initial illness. It seems long covid is more or less a mystery, like so many other aspects.

 

Fourth thought. The hard core number of anti vaxxers who will not get get the vaccine regardless. That number appears to be between 25-30%. In spite of fantasy thoughts from a lot of us about forcing them...

 

Not at all...persuading through education and non-fiction information is the goal.

 

Just read this article in the LA Times.

 

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-08-02/covid-vaccine-proof-delta-variant-spread-what-to-know

 

My comment about this other than me cheering, yeah! is I don't think some of this would pass a court challenge especially on the government side.

 

Just FYI - "internal emails from the human resources department at Fox Corporation last month informed employees that 'a secure, voluntary' method by which workers could 'self-attest their vaccination status' was being made available. It"s called the FOX Clear Pass." Essentially, Fox has a vaccine passport program to protect its employees.

 

Now, this is my final and most controversial thought. If we've already reached herd immunity and the anti vaxer crowd is basically a well known number what will it take for some of you in this thread to feel "safe enough" considering we will never be 100% safe?

 

I can never feel 100% safe about anything. Planes crash. Drunk drivers. Falls. Food poisoning. I went to the Summer NAMM show because I felt safe enough. Apparently I was At some point this will be like the flu. You get your shot, you get your booster, and that's all you can do...which will be enough to make this manageable. Remember, between 20K and 60K die from the regular flu each year in the US. We accept that, we can accept a like number dying from Covid. What's hard to accept is it being the third leading cause of death overall. That has to be brought down before people feel safe.

 

We have to be honest, and realize that right now, there are two things holding back progress: In countries with enough vaccine, people who refuse to get vaccinated, and in countries that don't have enough vaccine, people who can't get vaccinated.

 

What's the point of getting vaccinated if we're required to mask up again and certain activities are being restricted again?

 

Because it's impossible to isolate yourself completely from society, and getting vaccinated improves your odds.

 

People have such simplistic views. Either the vaccine is so bad everything has to be restricted, or everything has to be open. Either it's a worldwide pandemic, or it will disappear and things will return to normal. Life just doesn't work that way, it's analog, with shades of gray...not digital, with 1 or 0.

 

We're musicians, we should all understand the concept of improvisation

[Anderton]

I just looked at the latest numbers and Florida is basically right there with every body else at 49.1% The entire US is 50.2% so 1.1% is enough for you to call him DeathSantis?

 

Florida is having the highest single-day number of infections ever, including during the height of last Winter's surge. It's one thing to open up. It's another thing to open up without a massive program to try and make people understand why they need to get vaccinated, and if they won't do that, steps they can take to mitigate damage to others.

[Anderton]

Fourth thought. The hard core number of anti vaxxers who will not get get the vaccine regardless.

I'm modifying my agreement with your opinion. Anti vaxxers are that way because of one of two sources of fear. The first is "what if there are side effects? what if I don't get covid after all, but I got the vaccine and I have problems from it? what if it hasn't been tested enough?" Whether those fears are based in reality or not doesn't matter. Some people are naturally afraid.

 

What changes their minds is when there's something greater to fear. When someone close to them dies, when a wife dies, or whatever, they now have something that's more tangible and far more fearsome So, now their fear becomes an advantage, because it causes them to take a path that causes less fear.

 

The second is fear of losing face. This occurs with those invested in a political ideology. They will never change. They are the ones who abuse nurses trying to save their relative from covid by yelling at the nurse that covid is a hoax, and how much of a kickback did she get by saying she's treating someone with covid. These people are so disconnected from reality they can't recognize reality, so to them, there's no logical reason to change.

 

PROGRESS IN BEATING THIS WILL INCH ALONG UNTIL PEOPLE LEARN TO SEPARATE MEDICAL ISSUES FROM POLITICAL ISSUES, AND UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO.

 

The following shows how anti-vaxxers change...by stressing out their families, having 8 months of intense suffering, realizing they're not special, facing death, and finally, having a modicum of humility come into their lives.

 

(Oh, and increasing health insurance premiums for those who didn't succumb to fear or ideology. But it's okay to step on other people's freedom. Freedom is only about #1, right?)

 

Tennessee state GOP Rep. David Byrd is urging people to take COVID-19 seriously and get vaccinated after his eight-month struggle with the coronavirus, in which he was hospitalized and put on a ventilator for 55 days. He had voted for a resolution in June 2020 that accused the media of sensationalizing the COVID-19 pandemic. And he attended a retreat for House Republicans last November, when cases were surging in the state, involving barbecues and boat tours - many attendees were unmasked.

 

But after having COVID-19, Byrd said he wanted people to take the virus seriously, saying it's real and dangerous.

 

"Up until this point in my life, I've been pretty healthy and active. Foolishly, I believed this virus only seriously affected people who are at high risk." Byrd said that the virus took over his lungs with "lightning speed" and that he got pneumonia. He was placed on a ventilator in the intensive-care unit, and his family faced the possibility of a funeral, he said.

 

"I got sicker and sicker, and more and more anxious," he said. "Every breath was pure agony."

 

When his lungs got better, his liver started to fail, and he developed jaundice, again putting him at risk of death. Overall, he spent eight months in the hospital and a rehabilitation facility, he added.

 

Byrd said he hoped that sharing his experience would show that the virus is "an enemy that knows no skin color, economic status or political affiliation."

[PrairieGuy]

as that same governor (we call him DeathSantis) fired the person who was reporting the truth and refusing to lie, minimizing the number of cases.

That's not true:

https://nypost.com/2021/05/13/how-rebekah-jones-peddled-lies-about-florida-covid-19-deaths/

 

Your media is horribly corrupt.

[RABid]

My small town hospital has a line every day, people who have been to Florida and now need the Covid test. I did read that Florida is responsible for 20 percent of the new cases. But, people are still going. My nephew and his wife are going next week for an anniversary getaway. The problem for Florida is not percentage of vaccinations of their residence. It is opening up to all the tourists who pack into restaurants and bars, many who are not vaccinated, and want a week of not worrying about Covid.

[analogika]

as that same governor (we call him DeathSantis) fired the person who was reporting the truth and refusing to lie, minimizing the number of cases.

That's not true:

https://nypost.com/2021/05/13/how-rebekah-jones-peddled-lies-about-florida-covid-19-deaths/

 

Your media is horribly corrupt.

God, what a mess of an article.

 

Don"t your news distinguish AT ALL anymore between 'reporting' and 'editorial'?

 

I don"t expect news to be 'neutral', per se â that"s why media education always means reading different sources with known slants to get an idea of common truth.

 

(It"s when Fox et al decided to no longer agree on FACTS that they became a real problem. Different opinions is fine. Different facts, and we no longer live in the same world.)

 

But if you link to an article that is full of shit like 'and boy, does she deserve to fall', then at least don"t kid yourself about prioritising slant over content.

 

Sheesh.

 

Having got that out, I"ll go back and try to see if there"s any valid content between the ranting.

[spokenward]

as that same governor (we call him DeathSantis) fired the person who was reporting the truth and refusing to lie, minimizing the number of cases.

That's not true:

https://nypost.com/2021/05/13/how-rebekah-jones-peddled-lies-about-florida-covid-19-deaths/

 

Your media is horribly corrupt.

God, what a mess of an article.

 

Don"t your news distinguish AT ALL anymore between 'reporting' and 'editorial'?

...

 

 

In US print media it is often flagged by location. There is an Opinion "bug" over the headline.

[KenElevenShadows]

Are we still discussing whether millions of health professionals, doctors, nurses, epidemiologists, virologists, and scientists are wrong about wearing masks?

[analogika]

as that same governor (we call him DeathSantis) fired the person who was reporting the truth and refusing to lie, minimizing the number of cases.

That's not true:

https://nypost.com/2021/05/13/how-rebekah-jones-peddled-lies-about-florida-covid-19-deaths/

 

Your media is horribly corrupt.

God, what a mess of an article.

 

Don"t your news distinguish AT ALL anymore between 'reporting' and 'editorial'?

...

 

 

In US print media it is often flagged by location. There is an Opinion "bug" over the headline.

 

Thank you! I don"t know how I missed thatâ¦

[RABid]

...

 

Don"t your news distinguish AT ALL anymore between 'reporting' and 'editorial'?

 

...

 

No, they don't. It is all about doing whatever they can to increase ratings in their chosen demographic. It is very hard to find neutral, factual news in the United States.

[Jazzmammal]

Ok, let the games begin. This is one heckuva an article I had not seen before that is full of what seems to be facts that you just completely ignored. '...and boy, does she deserve to fall'. That's all you got after ignoring page after page of what looks like pretty compelling narrative? Are they real facts or fake facts? On the surface they look pretty real to me. BUT...The NY Post is a conservative tabloid with not the greatest of reputations and this is excerpted from the National Review which is a very conservative website so I agree skepticism is in order but you need to do better than that if you want to refute it. It has names, places, dates but as I've said many times the world and especially the media is full of people who did very well in creative writing classes. All of these names are readily avaiable, everybody knows the timeline and it's very possible certain other facts were deliberately left out that could have painted a different picture.

 

So, who's Rebecca Jones really? And was she really the only source for the state of Florida fudging the data?

 

Bob

[Anderton]

That's not true

 

Oh, is the trial over?

 

I've not referenced her, because my skeptical side said she didn't pass the smell test.

 

But to be fair, the state of Florida doesn't either. Look at what's happening in Florida right now, and I think it tells you all you need to know about the competence of Florida's covid response.

 

Jones made claims that made the state look bad.

 

The state made counter-claims that made her look bad.

 

A warrant was issued for her arrest. She turned herself in, and there's going to be a trial. The way things work in this country is that when there's a trial, discovery will happen, facts will come out, and people will be doing sworn testimony under penalty of perjury. Data will be produced. Expert witnesses will be called to testify, probably with numbing detail, about the fine points of data management. Testimony will be heard.

 

Eventually, guilt or innocence will be adjudicated. THEN people can (probably) say whether the article is telling the truth, or she's telling the truth.

 

My gut feeling is that nobody involved is telling the whole truth, but we'll find out as the trial progresses.

 

Next.

[PrairieGuy]

Ok, let the games begin. This is one heckuva an article I had not seen before that is full of what seems to be facts that you just completely ignored. '...and boy, does she deserve to fall'. That's all you got after ignoring page after page of what looks like pretty compelling narrative? Are they real facts or fake facts? On the surface they look pretty real to me. BUT...The NY Post is a conservative tabloid with not the greatest of reputations and this is excerpted from the National Review which is a very conservative website so I agree skepticism is in order but you need to do better than that if you want to refute it. It has names, places, dates but as I've said many times the world and especially the media is full of people who did very well in creative writing classes. All of these names are readily avaiable, everybody knows the timeline and it's very possible certain other facts were deliberately left out that could have painted a different picture.

 

So, who's Rebecca Jones really? And was she really the only source for the state of Florida fudging the data?

 

Bob

That's a valid response other than just dismissing it outright.

 

I could make a list a mile long of left wing mainstream news organizations that have outright lied over the last few year. CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, ABC, even 60 Minutes. I even remember a high level politician in NY who received (or was nominated) for an Emmy even though he ordered sick seniors back into care homes that led to the deaths of thousands.

 

But the left wing media gushed all over him like he was the second coming. So all those complaining about right wing media need to take a long look n the mirror at where the real problem is.

[KuruPrionz]

Some thoughts and questions. I knew from reading some of your previous posts Craig that you were plugged into the system but forgot just how plugged in you are and I think this is the first time you actually gave us some personal info about your family and yourself. In a thread like this that's a leap for you and I for one, appreciate it.

 

Notes it's the same with your brother in law and you've posted about him before but this latest info is really good.

 

First thought is what's the definition of herd immunity with COVID. From what I've read herd immunity varies per virus according to how catchable it is and the Delta variant is high up on that list. The Mayo Clinic is using an "estimate" of 70%.

 

Second thought is the true number of cases in the US since this started. The official number is 35.5 million but just like COVID deaths and the concept of "Excess deaths" over that same period that strongly implies the death numbers is actually 100K-200K higher, wouldn't the actual number of cases be double or even triple of the official number as well? If we use 70 million as the number of cases then we're already above the 70% herd immunity now.

Bob

 

There are 332 million plus people in the USA. Times .7 (70%) is 232,400,000 people that need to have had COVID or been vaccinated to reach herd immunity.

70 million is less than 1/3 of the number needed. Adding in the vaccinated will help get closer but it is still short of the mark.

 

So you may want to check your math. It's an interesting post though.

[Anderton]

I could make a list a mile long of left wing mainstream news organizations that have outright lied over the last few year. CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, ABC, even 60 Minutes.

 

And in addition to that, I can make a list a mile long of right wing mainstream news news organizations that have outright lied over the last few years. So? Would either come as a surprise to anyone?

 

So all those complaining about right wing media need to take a long look n the mirror at where the real problem is.

 

I think we've pretty much reached a consensus that the real problem is on both sides. (Well, maybe there are a few outliers who actually believe one side is less biased than the other.)

 

What people don't seem to understand is that different people look at the same thing from different perspectives, and therefore come to conclusions that are internally consistent with their perspectives. Whether a particular perspective is "right" or "wrong" is in the eye of the beholder, which may very well be resistant to logic. And whether something is truly a lie (which requires an intent to deceive), a "spin" (which is selective in what it presents, and perhaps more importantly, what it omits), a misunderstanding, or just sheer laziness is sometimes hard to determine.

 

Frankly, what the media chooses not to report is often far more damning to its credibility than what it chooses to report.

 

Next.

[Anderton]

"You do it" followed by "well you do it too" accomplishes nothing, if neither side is can recognize their own failings.

 

If we're not devoting ourselves to improving the overall situation instead of just reinforcing the perspectives of the tribe we've chosen to associate with, nothing positive, or transformational, will ever be accomplished.

[analogika]

...

 

Don"t your news distinguish AT ALL anymore between 'reporting' and 'editorial'?

 

...

 

No, they don't. It is all about doing whatever they can to increase ratings in their chosen demographic. It is very hard to find neutral, factual news in the United States.

 

Again, "neutral" is overrated. FACTUAL is essential. Getting balanced reporting is not so hard for a reader if you just go to multiple sources, as long as they all agree on actual reality.

[analogika]

Ok, let the games begin. This is one heckuva an article I had not seen before that is full of what seems to be facts that you just completely ignored. '...and boy, does she deserve to fall'. That's all you got after ignoring page after page of what looks like pretty compelling narrative? Are they real facts or fake facts? On the surface they look pretty real to me. BUT...The NY Post is a conservative tabloid with not the greatest of reputations and this is excerpted from the National Review which is a very conservative website so I agree skepticism is in order but you need to do better than that if you want to refute it. It has names, places, dates but as I've said many times the world and especially the media is full of people who did very well in creative writing classes. All of these names are readily avaiable, everybody knows the timeline and it's very possible certain other facts were deliberately left out that could have painted a different picture.

 

So, who's Rebecca Jones really? And was she really the only source for the state of Florida fudging the data?

 

Bob

I almost stopped reading when I saw it was the NY Post, because, frankly, it's way too much work weeding through all the agitation and spin to distill content that is CERTAINLY available at REAL news sites if it has any merit at all.

 

I actually did stop reading when I realised it wasn't a news story AT ALL, but merely an editorial. I don't need the NY Post's opinion. I already know the NY Post's opinion.

 

From briefly skimming the article, the only real "facts" are a blow-by-blow account of how exactly she was silenced, and how she attempted to underrun that until being fired.

 

Her trouble was from posting unauthorised content. Which is exactly what she claims to have done.

 

Did I miss anything? Is there another conservative source that actually has a news article on these allegedly new developments that doesn't make me want to bite my keyboard?

[PrairieGuy]

Did I miss anything? Is there another conservative source that actually has a news article on these allegedly new developments that doesn't make me want to bite my keyboard?

Perhaps but I don't know. Is there a liberal news source that has looked closer into this?

 

As Anderton stated...what they choose not to report is just as important.