OK, the Corona Virus Isn't Going Away. Now What?

[techristian]

The point is this. All vaccines up until now take 5-10 years of testing before unleashing on the public. This was sprung in less than a year! It is still considered "experimental for EMERGENCY USE" . There are other long term side effects such as cancer and auto immune diseases associated with some vaccines. Some of these take 5 years to show up.

 

Dan

[techristian]

 

As they said, "but that does not necessarily mean the vaccine was the cause."

 

And the same should have been said for Covid 19 , in the first place. "but that does not necessarily mean Covid19 was the cause." Many , already on their death beds, 85+ were diagnosed with covid because of the lucrative incentives to do so.

 

Dan

[Chip McDonald]

Freedom is wonderful. You're free to stay couped up in your house, indulging your shutdown fantasies and raving on the internet 'til the end of time, and the rest of us are free to get our shots and go on with our lives.

 

Big words until you or someone you love dies of covid.

 

Which in my case involves trying to teach my GF how to play guitar when I don't really know how, myself.

 

 

You're effectively giving medical advice that you don't really know, either: "spin the wheel with covid, your life has a great chance of not being effected".

 

 

 

By the way, "people" includes small business owners and 38% of small businesses have closed while the big box stores stayed open. I'm not sure what kind of fantasy world you would have to live in to think that the government can indefinitely keep on supporting people who can't work because of shutdowns.

 

 

I have a small business that has been impacted greatly by it. I have friends who have lost their businesses. I haven't been supported by the government, and neither were they. Meanwhile, other "lesser" nations managed to support their people with orders of magnitude greater, and somehow survived. But that's a fantasy, right?

 

Here's a nifty study showing how shelter in place orders have had minimal effect (and no, it doesn't confuse the SIP orders with social distancing itself): https://www.pnas.org/content/118/15/e2019706118

 

 

Let's set aside the fact that's cherry picking: do you, as a thinking human being, believe that making people stay awayy from each other during a pandemic prevents transmission of the virus? Yes or no; what does common sense tell you? How does the virus jump from one side of town to the other, if everyone stays away from each other?

 

*NOT* whether *a cherry picked implementation* - that wasn't actually a lock down worked. Because it certainly does, and there are dozens of examples of it working. It obviously stopped the first surge in the States. Or do you deny that? Deny that keeping people apart means the virus can't be transmitted? That is *reality*.

 

Referring to late last summer or so, when GA (followed by FLA and other states) relaxed the COVID restrictions, which caused cries of outrage. I admit I haven't been keeping track of the last month or so.

 

 

Frak you, my mother died of it last summer, friends, friends parents and thousands more, it surged over and over. Hospitals filled, friends in the medical community working 7 days a week overtime. What a ridiculous thing to write. I've wasted my time "discussing" this.

[Chip McDonald]

front page of todays WSJ : Vaccines Offer Significant Protection Against Covid-19 Delta Variant, U.K. Analysis Shows

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/vaccines-offer-significant-protection-against-covid-19-delta-variant-u-k-analysis-shows-11623690999?st=1ffi28g5j5fhgeo&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

 

 

Effective against *hospitalization*. About 20% down overall. If the variants run their course as alpha did, it's still a disaster IF you're just basing the outcome on hospitalization.

[Anderton]

 

As they said, "but that does not necessarily mean the vaccine was the cause."

 

And the same should have been said for Covid 19 , in the first place. "but that does not necessarily mean Covid19 was the cause." Many , already on their death beds, 85+ were diagnosed with covid because of the lucrative incentives to do so.

 

Dan

 

There's no doubt that if someone with an underlying condition dies of Covid, you don't know which one put the proverbial final nail in the coffin. So let's be generous, and discard 500,000 deaths as not truly related to Covid. Even with that very high number, Covid would still be the #3 leading cause of death worldwide, if you compare the previous 12 months of Covid with any other calendar year.

 

The point is this. All vaccines up until now take 5-10 years of testing before unleashing on the public. This was sprung in less than a year! It is still considered "experimental for EMERGENCY USE" . There are other long term side effects such as cancer and auto immune diseases associated with some vaccines. Some of these take 5 years to show up.

 

Actually, I've read that it takes on average of 15-20 years to get approval. Admittedly, Covid vaccines had a head start because of the similarity to SARS and other diseases, but still, it was developed and approved in an uncharacteristically short period of time.

 

However, this IS an emergency. The #1 and #2 causes of death are heart disease and stroke, but they're not infectious. Allowing Covid to propagate unfettered would easily make it the leading cause of death worldwide, probably for several years to come. This is NOT like the seasonal flu. Just ask India, China, Brazil, the United States, Europe, etc.

 

Now let's get real.Every re-opening prior to the vaccine development was followed with another surge, with each surge worse than the last. I don't think it's logically consistent to want the economy to re-open and also be against taking the vaccine. I have no doubt that prioritizing re-opening the economy was a factor in pushing the development, and of course, I assume drug companies being able to make a fortune was a factor as well.

 

But those who want the economy to re-open, and are anti-vaccine, are in an untenable position. It's a fact that rates of infection, illness, and death among the vaccinated is way lower than those who aren't vaccinated. We KNOW there's a tradeoff in locking down the world, in terms of economic pain and political instability. We KNOW there's a tradeoff in opening too soon, because it leads to more deaths and infections. The tradeoff with vaccines is there MAY be negative side effects that don't show up for years.

 

People have to accept the fact that there are NO answers that are free of tradeoffs. All the options are fraught. However, I think most people would rather take their chances of potential problems with a vaccine, than the certainty of serious economic problems if the economy doesn't open up, or serious health problems if it does because people aren't vaccinated.

 

We'll know for sure in 10 years.

[Chip McDonald]

The way I see it. The vaccine is more dangerous than the disease. That is why the US government vaers database has been pulled down a few times. The deaths and reactions to this vaccine are higher than all of the vaccines for the past 20 years combined.

 

 

VAERS is a report tool. Anyone can enter a case, it is not vetted and it is not a study.

 

"Deaths and reactions" is distorted. There has never been a situation like this with a vaccine rollout before. There has never been follow up accounting like this, or hyperbolic press coverage.

 

3+ billion people given a shot; 3+ billion people in a random sampling are going to have how many random pre-existing medical problems? "Bad reaction" - my arm hurt for a few days, I was lucky - Moderna people seem to have a much worse time of it, but that beats a ventilator, or lifelong heart/lung/kidney/brain problems.

[Chip McDonald]

I wish I could be as diplomatic as Craig.

[Chip McDonald]

While rummaging through old drives a few weeks ago, uploading pictures to Google Photos before they started counting against your quota, I found a post "post deleted from Craig Anderton Forum" I deleted from this forum in 2003 I removed because I thought "this is too doom and gloom, I don't want this to happen". I thought it might be interesting one day as a "calibration check" to my neurotic thinking - and it turns out I was right, so close to what has happened it's almost prophetic.

 

Save the part about people's reactions and ideas about how to interpret the situation. Might be amusing to post here if I can find it again, but I really had a more ironically optimistic attitude towards people back then, I wish I could get back.

 

The variants are real, and if given the chance will run the same course SARS-COV2 alpha did. It will eventually lead to COV3 if the same non-"approach" is taken. We are facing a future where living into your 70's, 80's will be fraught with not just the though of dying of cancer, but SARS. If the variants surge it will take out what remains of the elderly population, given everyone's misguided idea that "it's over!' "I'm vaccinated, we don't need to wear masks!". Herd psychopathy.

[Doerfler]

front page of todays WSJ : Vaccines Offer Significant Protection Against Covid-19 Delta Variant, U.K. Analysis Shows

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/vaccines-offer-significant-protection-against-covid-19-delta-variant-u-k-analysis-shows-11623690999?st=1ffi28g5j5fhgeo&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

 

 

Effective against *hospitalization*. About 20% down overall. If the variants run their course as alpha did, it's still a disaster IF you're just basing the outcome on hospitalization.

 

I was posting relevant information that I felt would be useful to this thread.

[Anderton]

I wish I could be as diplomatic as Craig.

 

Well, my mother was half-Swiss. Goes with the territory.

[Anderton]

I was posting relevant information that I felt would be useful to this thread.

 

I'm trying to remember if you've ever posted something that wasn't relevant!

[KuruPrionz]

While I have long since given up on attempting to persuade others who hold firmly to beliefs by presenting facts that run counter to those beliefs, here is an article in support of the effectiveness of being vaccinated. I was lucky to have an opportunity earlier this year, my second shot was on March 3rd. I would get another vaccine, I've seen what Covid does to humans and it isn't pretty.

 

As to actual numbers, I would say that the reported numbers are probably missing all of the people who stay home and die. So the numbers may be falsely low, rather than the opposite.

I dismiss all of the fear-mongering about the evils of the vaccine as unsubstantiated fluff, sort of like Sasquatch and the advice of orange losers who say one thing but try to sneak off and get vaccinated undetected - oops, caught!

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-infections-dropping-where-people-205837251.html

[Anderton]

I think what we all have to keep in mind (hi Chip!) is that all people suck, including ourselves. We are fragile, damaged by things that have happened in our lives, and ignorant because we cannot possibly absorb all the knowledge needed to consider ourselves anything but ignorant.

 

Oh, we do the best we can. And we really try hard to do the right thing. But sometimes, we can't even know what the right thing is to do. And the people who want to convince us to do the wrong thing will often get away with it, because most people are trusting,. Why? Because they themselves can be trusted, so they project that behavior onto others. I have proof people are trusting: look how many con men and grifters are able to find marks.

 

I recommend three things:

 

* Be as tolerant of other people as you wish they were of you. Boxers have proven that punching people in the face doesn't open eyes...it closes them.

* Be ready to change what you believe on a moment's notice, as you receive more data.

* There's nothing wrong with saying "I don't know." And there's nothing wrong with saying "I stand corrected."

[KuruPrionz]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/many-post-covid-patients-experiencing-182552282.html

[Notes_Norton]

1) They have been working on mRNA vaccines for a long time, so it is NOT experimental like some propaganda media outlets say.

 

2) The reason why they developed the mRNA application so quickly is because we threw a historically huge amount of money at it.

 

3) The odds of getting damage from COVID are astronomical compared to the odds of getting damaged from the vaccine.

[Greg Mein]

Returning somewhat to the original post question, "...now what?". A problem I'm running headlong into is what might be an unprecedented housing shortage?! Houses sell as fast as they're listed and sometimes for over the asking price. I know that manufacturing took a big hit and lumber prices (along with damn near everything else) increased significantly. I'm also aware of some fairly dramatic population shifts in recent years, for example, FL is now the third most populated state overtaking NY but that doesn't explain everything I'm seeing.

 

This is causing a potential problem in my plans where we hoped to be moving out of state soon, it's impossible to shop for homes without actually being right there. If you find something online that you like it's gone the next day!

Has anyone else noticed this or have any thoughts on why it might be happening?

[Anderton]

It's the same way here in Nashville. A house might be listed for a day or two before it's under contract. They aren't California-style prices, but they are up a lot compared to when I bought my place.

 

The reasons are many. Fewer people are getting married, so they want their own homes. Millennials are entering the market. People aren't listing houses for sale because they're concerned they won't be able to find one to buy. People are underwater on their mortgages (the hangover from the great recession), and can't sell. No more land is being made, so it's getting more expensive. It's hard to find construction materials and workers to make houses.

 

It's likely these trends won't get much better in the short term.

[Chip McDonald]

I was posting relevant information that I felt would be useful to this thread.

 

 

"Protection" implies no consequences, and against the delta variant implies there is no difference - when there definitely is.

[Chip McDonald]

Returning somewhat to the original post question, "...now what?". A problem I'm running headlong into is what might be an unprecedented housing shortage?!

 

 

House buyers are investing in "player" vintage guitars and putting new pickups in them, instead of buying brand new assembly line generic cookie-cutter guitars - that aren't being built right now anyhow.

[pinkfloydcramer]

 

Frak you

 

And you can go frak yourself. Your prescribed solution at this point is whack and you out of hand reject anything people offer here that doesn't fit into your bizarro COVID cult world. You actually think I'm sending people to their deaths by maintaining it's ok to get vaccinated and go on about your life? Current CDC guidelines.

 

Sorry about your mother. I lost mine too, a year ago, although not to COVID. My state got hid harder than yours, some of my friends lost a parent to to COVID, and I've seen the disruption. Grief can make you crazy, so can interacting with unhinged people on the internet so I'm done here.

 

Had to come back and clean things up a little so.. losing a family member to COVID will undoubtedly influence how you look at it and in the future I will try to be more sensitive to that.. Also, just because I don't like someone (or their online presence) much, doesn't mean I hate them, either. Take care of yourself.

[techristian]

The new story is that major Gas and Oil companies are planning on "REPLACING" covid vaccinated employees within 3 years. Figure that one out.

 

....and then I got this scarry popup on my phone. "The elderly may have SLOW COVID" ....wHAT?

 

 

Remember "Just 2 weeks to flatten the curve" ?

 

 

Dan

[techristian]

Getting back to "Now What?"

 

Well I'm still working at home on my projects ,at home, but they keep tightening down the screws tighter and tighter in Canada. I wanted to visit my cousin in Alberta but Manitoba has put up border guards for three ZONES and won't allow anyone in. Local stores have gone from demanding "face coverings" to demanding face masks only. My oldest daughter was kicked out of her Toronto College dorm and has been here since the middle of March 2020.

 

A few local musicians have been playing mini concerts on their driveways.

 

On the positive side, I managed to sit in yesterday with a local group at the Detroit River for a song !! The police went by but didn't arrest me !

 

Dan

[GovernorSilver]

Returning somewhat to the original post question, "...now what?". A problem I'm running headlong into is what might be an unprecedented housing shortage?! Houses sell as fast as they're listed and sometimes for over the asking price. I know that manufacturing took a big hit and lumber prices (along with damn near everything else) increased significantly. I'm also aware of some fairly dramatic population shifts in recent years, for example, FL is now the third most populated state overtaking NY but that doesn't explain everything I'm seeing.

 

This is causing a potential problem in my plans where we hoped to be moving out of state soon, it's impossible to shop for homes without actually being right there. If you find something online that you like it's gone the next day!

Has anyone else noticed this or have any thoughts on why it might be happening?

 

Same situation in this area. My cousin's wife flew over and stayed with me for a couple of weeks to look for housing, because of the speed at which homes are being snatched off the market. The reason they were home shopping here is her employer wanted her to work onsite ASAP.

 

My guess - not at all backed by extensive research or anything - is a lot of employers here want staff back onsite. So employees who were hired remotely like my cousin's wife now have to move to this area. There may also be some folks who moved out to the countryside, or an island or whatever when telecommuting was more widespread, and now they have to come back to the city to work.

[GovernorSilver]

Looks like the housing shortage did not start with the rise of COVID. It was already building up years before. COVID just slowed down the housing business temporarily, as it did many other types of businesses.

 

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/mortgages/the-property-line-housing-shortage-no-crash-imminent

[Anderton]

The new story is that major Gas and Oil companies are planning on "REPLACING" covid vaccinated employees within 3 years. Figure that one out.

 

I was intrigued, so I decided to visit the rabbit hole. All of the reports of gas and oil companies replacing Covid vaccinated employees come from one TikTok video, from an unidentified woman, who offers nothing to back up her story, or even to back up she is who she says she is.

 

Now, she probably got the figure from the stories that claim Luc Montagnier, a French virologist (who is both respected but not without considerable controversy), said in a video that everyone who was vaccinated was going to die in 2 years. Fortunately, these stories include a link to the video, and they probably didn't know I speak French Well, that's NOT AT ALL what he said. Not even close. What he DID say was that he thought mass vaccinations was a huge mistake, especially during a pandemic, because people becoming vaccinated against Covid would encourage variants that would cause more deaths. His conclusion was that vaccinations are causing the variants. Regardless of whether that's right or wrong, that's very different from saying everybody's going to die in 2 years. The hell of it is, what he's saying is worthy of discussion. But, it's being drowned out because for whatever reason, the anti-vaccination segment of the media chose to focus on something he didn't say, or even imply. I mean, he didn't even say "So if we're not careful, everyone might die in two years." There wasn't even a way you could take what he said out of context, and come up with what he is claimed to have said.

 

As I kept reading further, I found out that Covid is a plot by the Chinese to slow-kill, that the Zionist Covid vaccines are "perfectly designed killing machines" that have killed 900,000 people as of June and millions world-wide, that Donald Trump brilliantly foiled the Chinese/Zionist plot through Operation Warp Speed, and that Donald Trump pushed Operation Warp Speed to further the goals of the Illuminati to reduce the world's population...and I also found out that if I get too close to a 5G tower, frequencies being sent out to kill vaccinated people will kill me, and that keys will stick to my forehead because I've been magnetized by the vaccine (spoiler alert: they don't).

 

At some point, the noise-to-signal ratio becomes intolerable. For all I know, everything I read on the internet is true, and I'll be dead in two years. But, given my age, I might be dead in two years anyway. Oh, and by the way, "succession plans" at companies are common. I send my Word docs to eBook publishers, even though they have no use for them, in case I die and they need to find someone alive to revise the book. It's not rocket science.

 

I'm open-minded about this stuff, but I need some kind of proof. The problem is, we don't have ANY proof about what will happen two years from now. However, I predict that nothing will turn out as anyone predicted. That seems like a pretty safe prediction.

[Anderton]

But seriously...

 

No one can say how this is all going to play out. No one knows.

 

The best we can do is extrapolate into the future, based on the past. There are two things we know to be true, based on the past:

 

1. Vaccines can be very effective.

2. Side effects will occur.

 

The problem is no one knows anything past that, like will the effectiveness be long-term, will side effects be serious or take along time to show up, will booster shots be needed, who will be most likely to have side effects, who will be most likely not to have any, etc.

 

So, I have the perfect solution to end conflicts within this thread! Everyone ends their post with:

 

"But really, I have no idea."

 

In fact, I think this will in indeed turn down the temperature.

 

But really, I have no idea.

[GovernorSilver]

I think most businesses - in certain industries - will give up on trying to force employees to work in office 5 days a week, which was the expectation before COVID. The ones that refuse to do so will quickly lose talent to their competitors.

 

But really, I have no idea.

[Doerfler]

But really, I have no idea, and I have the data to back it up.

[Anderton]

I think most businesses - in certain industries - will give up on trying to force employees to work in office 5 days a week, which was the expectation before COVID. The ones that refuse to do so will quickly lose talent to their competitors.

 

The work week is an invention of the Industrial Age, and we're not in that age any more. I truly believe that by and large, people are more productive when trusted, given a long leash, have defined expectations of what needs to be accomplished, and then are left to their own devices. After all, which is a more logical goal:

 

1. Employees need to sit in a cubicle, starting at 9 AM, and ending at 5 PM.

2. Employees need to accomplish certain tasks that benefit the company, as specified.

 

I think that if the pandemic has had any benefit, it's been to question the traditional concept of what kind of work promotes the highest level of productivity/creativity, and whether a work/life balance is more important than living to work.

 

The irony, of course, is that I still sit in front of a computer for hour after hour...but that's my choice. And if my creativity is flagging, I can take a walk, go for a swim, take a nap, or play guitar. The bottom line is I always come back refreshed, and more productive.

 

Sure, some people will take advantage of working from home. But they're the same people who would take advantage of working at an office. I know quite a few people who like their jobs, and they like them even better when they can do what they feel is necessary to get that job done, in the most effective way.

 

But really, I have no idea.

[techristian]

I really believe that all of this has nothing to do with the virus and we will never again have the liberty that we once had. They have stretched this "2 weeks" out for 15 months and I think that the legislators like the power..... and it doesn't matter whether they are "conservative" or "liberal". They all like the power.

 

The latest story is that we will have lockdowns to reduce carbon, so there is no end in sight.

 

https://www.intellihub.news/lockdowns-to-combat-climate-change-emissions-and-consumption-of-red-meat-are-coming-the-beta-tests-are-over/

 

And thanks Craig for just taking a small trip down the rabbit hole, but it is still much deeper.

 

Today , in Canada , we will have a Parliamentary Press Conference on the Censorship of Doctors, Scientists & Medical Information at 12pm EDT

 

Many doctors, worldwide, have been muzzled.

 

Dan