Can aftertouch be "broken in"?

[nadroj]

Waiting for my Stage 3 88 to arrive. For many reasons decided on the HA88 against the compact. When I was playing one in store I realised it was a bit of an effort to trigger the aftertouch. Several comments here and on the Norduser forums have said similarly about the HA88 on the Stage 2.

 

Is it just a case of getting used to it? Or will the resistance start to soften over time as I play it more?

[Markyboard]

Great question but no, I don't think so. The typical after-touch (AT) strip sensitivity is based on its position relative to the bottom out trigger point of the keys. In order to be more sensitive it needs to be closer, i.e. less key travel/pressure to initiate the current flow through the strip. If anything, more "breaking in" would make the AT worse, although I've never found this to be the case either.

 

I've read of some people adding an additional rubber strip to engage the AT earlier in the key travel. But it's very easy to have the AT trigger when you're just playing with higher velocities, also not desirable. Years ago Roland modified their A-80 AT circuit (simple resistor change) to provide more current which was supposed to improve the AT response. For me this never did anything - still had the same physical positioning issue.

 

There are other AT mechanisms, especially for Poly-AT where breaking in might help. But not with the common AT equipped Fatar keybeds.

[mate stubb]

In Soviet Union, you don't break aftertouch - aftertouch break you!

[BuckW]

It seems like out ought to be configurable either for the keyboard or at least the patch.

[Markyboard]

It seems like out ought to be configurable either for the keyboard or at least the patch.

 

Sometimes that is the solution - but not in this case. Aftertouch is a Control Voltage (CV) just like the mod wheel, expression pedal etc. It takes a certain minimum amount of force/pressure to get the minimum voltage from the aftertouch sensor. More force generates more voltage.

 

The software (i.e. the patch/global settings) can not change the amount of force needed to produce a particular voltage. It can only read the resulting bits from an Analog (voltage) to Digital Converter and determine how much "modulation" (or effect) to generate based on the interpreted voltage.

 

The OP's issue is a hardware sensor issue common in many keybed controllers.

[AnotherScott]

It seems like out ought to be configurable either for the keyboard or at least the patch.

Just like the "soft/medium/hard" touch response many boards have, all software can do is change how the physical signal is interpreted, there is no way a software control alone can affect the actual physical mechanics. The mechanics are simply part of the board's design. While you could tweak its curve in software, If it takes a certain minimum force to activate the aftertouch sensor based on the physical design, there's no way to lessen that with software.

 

Aftertouch implementations really vary a lot between boards. I suspect we don't discuss that much here because, these days, we're lucky if we get aftertouch at all. But yeah, it's a lot better on some boards than others, and we might not even all agree about which are which.

[Reezekeys]

My Roland A-Pro has four aftertouch response curves. What's not documentented is that there's a trimpot on the main board that seems to adjust the sensitivity. As originally set, you had to push pretty hard to generate AT. IIRC I wound up maxing the trimpot and now the AT kicks in with what feels like a normal effort. That plus the curves adjust works well for me.

 

Of course it might not be wise to open a brand new Nord to see if there was a similar trimpot adjustment warranties and all that. I assume you've checked the manual and there's no system menu with any AT parameters? I would not count on any "breaking in", my AT response has never changed since I tweaked it. Good luck.

[David Emm]

I have found release velocity to be far more useful than aftertouch, because having the release stage controllable in real-time engages me like mad. MONO AT is only useful to me when playing a solo-type musical line. Using it with a handful of chords generally turns it into an amusing synth oddity more than a musically emotive option. It takes added care to keep it from being hokey. A little is generally plenty. POLY AT takes you to a much more esoteric place, because its outstanding if you're ready to sweat over bringing out a certain balance with string, brass or woodwind-like patches. Its also a great way to emphasize various synth behaviors, but in both cases, will the audience really be able to appreciate much, if any of the detail? Of course, you can find a personal area where each of these could work for you, but I always perk up when release velocity is offered. Its too rare.

[AnotherScott]

MONO AT is only useful to me when playing a solo-type musical line.

Yes, and that's what I use it for, whether a synth lead, or emulating most orchestral instruments (the majority of which are monophonic). I like to be able to add expressivity to the line while my other hand is playing some other supporting part (so not available for mod wheel). Foot pedal just doesn't feel nearly as expressive to me, and is also awkward for a standing player who already may have a foot occupied with volume or sustain on one sound or another.

[Reezekeys]

I have found release velocity to be far more useful than aftertouch, because having the release stage controllable in real-time engages me like mad. MONO AT is only useful to me when playing a solo-type musical line.

We're going astray of this thread topic but I'll bite. Mono AT and release velocity are two completely different animals IMO, since channel aftertouch affects the sustain portion of a note while release velocity affects only its final decay to silence. I happen to find AT more useful I use it most often to bring in a downward pitch bend on a lead sound, as my left hand is usually on the mod lever of my Roland controller. The few times I've tried using release velocity, I found it very difficult to control (I wanted to control release time on string samples). Maybe with a lot of practice I could get it under my fingers better, but it requires a keyboarding technique foreign to how I play. Not being much of a real acoustic piano player, I pay much less attention to how I release a key!

[MotiDave]

My Motif XF7 has AT and in 6 yrs I've used it on one song. Its so sensitive I have to consciously focus on every note to NOT trigger it prematurely until the spot in the passage where I wanted it. I don't know if its just me and I'm ham handed or its that sensitive to everyone. I didn't ind any adjustment option, but then again - didn't look. I'm hoping I can break it in to be less sensitive :0

[Markyboard]

My Motif XF7 has AT and in 6 yrs I've used it on one song. Its so sensitive I have to consciously focus on every note to NOT trigger it prematurely until the spot in the passage where I wanted it. I don't know if its just me and I'm ham handed or its that sensitive to everyone. I didn't ind any adjustment option, but then again - didn't look. I'm hoping I can break it in to be less sensitive :0

 

This is exactly what I was trying to point out with my earlier post. The physical sensitivity is so dependent on where the sensor is positioned relative to the keys. We may be talking less then a millimeter difference (I'm guessing here) between too sensitive and too difficult to initiate.

 

I sent back my first M-audio Ctrl49 controller earlier this year because the upper 2 notes were ridiculously sensitive. Like Dave's Motif you had to work at not triggering the AT. The rest of the keys were fine. Even with the replacement there's still a difference with those upper notes but not nearly as bad. So there's consistency across the keyboard and consistency from unit to unit to deal with.

 

 

[synthizen2]

I've had a strange on-again off-again love affair with aftertouch over the decades. Mostly these days I don't really have a use for it, so if any of my synths don't have it (and some don't), it's no big deal anymore.

 

The way I remember it (back in the day):

 

Aftertouch on Roland synths from the 80s/early 90s (like the JX and JD lines, D-50, etc.) tended to degrade over time, to the point where it took a sledgehammer to engage it at all. They used some sort of graphite strip in which the graphite content wore off eventually. In addition to this, the AT essentially acted more like an On/Off switch than a variable voltage level. You didn't get much in the way of subtle control.

 

Korg synths from that same time period, on the other hand, had an AT that lasted decades into the future, and had a much greater level of variable control (didn't feel like an On/Off switch at all). The synth that I remember having the best AT that I ever experienced (until recently) was the DSS-1. The level of variable filter cutoff control you could get with AT alone was nothing short of amazing.

 

After that, synths from the 90s and beyond (that I've owned or played), mostly had the poor "On/Off" type aftertouch, including other Korg synths like the Z1. It's only until recently that I've come back to GOOD aftertouch on my Kurzweil PC3, the only synth I've owned recently that can match the AT of the old Korg DSS-1.

[AnotherScott]

The synth that I remember having the best AT that I ever experienced (until recently) was the DSS-1. The level of variable filter cutoff control you could get with AT alone was nothing short of amazing.

I agree, the DSS1 action was one of the best synth actions ever.

[mate stubb]

I like the IDEA of aftertouch. but in real life have never once played a board that was useably responsive.

 

Either it is like concrete and impossible to activate, or you activate it accidentally when you don't want, or one end of the board works differently than the other, or you can trigger it but then not control it, or it ruins the bottom feel....

 

I'll take pedals, levers, wheels, ribbons or breath controllers.

[nadroj]

Finding the opinions here surprising - considering how much we seem to complain when a new board doesn't have aftertouch, quite a few of us seem to struggle with it or not use it at all!

[AnotherScott]

I like the IDEA of aftertouch. but in real life have never once played a board that was useably responsive.

I've never had or tried aftertouch on a hammer action board, nor had any particular desire for it. But I've had pretty good experiences with it on the un/semi-weighteds, with (somewhat) recent boards being the Kronos 61, Nord Stage 2-73, and (IIRC) Kurzweil PC361. Nord Wave had an unusual feel with a "hard" rather than "soft" transition from standard landing to aftertouch, which meant it wasn't a good design for subtle control, but for my purposes on that board, even that worked fine. As for the NS2-73, the altered bottom may have contibuted to it being less satisfying for piano work, but that wasn't the board I typically did piano work on. So there's some issue of "the right tool for the job" there.

 

Have you played any of those? What are boards that you have found unsatisfying in their aftertouch?

[The Real MC]

I like the IDEA of aftertouch. but in real life have never once played a board that was useably responsive.

 

The ARP ProSoloist AT is very useable. When routing AT to pitch bend and volume, I could get a very natural sounding vibrato just with hand motion.

 

Have yet to get that feel and response from my other AT boards.

[Reezekeys]

Well here's a vote for perfectly usable aftertouch - on my dinky Roland A800 Pro, after I opened it up and adjusted the sensitivity trimpot. I'm not buying a keyboard that doesn't have AT.

 

I do sometimes notice some extraneous AT events on my recorded sequences if I'm playing my keyboard fff. Not a real issue as AT is usually not assigned to anything at the time.

 

And I misposted above, saying I used it to bend pitch down on a lead sound while my left hand was on the mod lever - I realized it's easy to use the Roland combo mod lever/PB stick to do that simultaneously. What I meant to say was that I use AT to bend pitch down when my left hand is busy comping chords for my fantastic lead synth excursions!

[Markyboard]

I love the AT on the Andromeda. Very smooth and it doesn't hurt (to say the least) that you can combine AT with modulation triggers. So for example AT will only effect notes that exceed a certain velocity

[Tom Williams]

I use channel AT all the time, not only for bringing in LFO's but also for filter and/or pitch mod that I can control LFO-lessly. (It's nice for bringing in other mods as well, e.g., PWM.)

 

Kurzweil's VAST adds a nice capability that I use a lot: the ability to delay onset of the AT with an envelope, so that an initial hard strike of a note or chord doesn't initially bring in the AT modulation. Then after a couple hundred milliseconds the aftertouch sensitivity ramps up and I can use it for the sustained part of the sound.

 

Oh, and BTW, the AT on the PC3 goes through some semiconductive ribbon that looks like 16mm film -- and occasionally falls out of its seat. :-( I'll be taking a screwdriver and some duct tape (yes, really) to it this weekend.

[RandyFF]

Have really enjoyed the AT on my Stage 88 classic, the first board i used it much. Relative to what I've felt in other boards, it feels well implemented, sensitive, the right balance of regular force compared to what it takes to trigger AT.

 

But at the moment I'm playing a MZ-X500 Casio, 61 notes semi-weighted, and have been fine without AT. My playing is much more relaxed, instead of having so much force going into my fingers, i remind myself i can relax and just play sensitively with the velocity, not the intense force that it takes to play AT on my Stage. For that matter, organ takes even less force, on/off switches.

 

I do tend to work too hard when i play, i know proper finger/hand posture, but the energy i put into that posture tends to be too tight/intense, and this new no-AT board has been a nice break from trying too hard / getting too excited.

 

I think my ideal would be an 88 note w/o AT, and a semi-weighted w/AT with the trim pot and velocity curves the Roland has.

[AnotherScott]

Have really enjoyed the AT on my Stage 88 classic, the first board i used it much.

...

But at the moment I'm playing a MZ-X500 Casio, 61 notes semi-weighted, and have been fine without AT. My playing is much more relaxed, instead of having so much force going into my fingers, i remind myself i can relax and just play sensitively with the velocity, not the intense force that it takes to play AT on my Stage. For that matter, organ takes even less force, on/off switches.

From the sound of it, it seems like those differences would be more likely to be the result of switching from fully weighted (hammer action) Stage 88 keys to semi-weighted (non hammer action) MZ-X500 keys. The loss of aftertouch just means that if you want to do things like add vibrato to a sound as you play, you'll have to use a wheel or pedal on the Casio instead of pressing further into the keys as you would on the Nord. If you're noticing differences in how you play piano or organ, well, these are things that never used the aftertouch function to begin with.

[felis]

....

Oh, and BTW, the AT on the PC3 goes through some semiconductive ribbon that looks like 16mm film -- and occasionally falls out of its seat. :-( I'll be taking a screwdriver and some duct tape (yes, really) to it this weekend.

 

 

Necro thread on the off chance you see this. Sounds like you've done it before.

 

How much disassembly do you have to do? And where is the connector located - on the end with the wheels, or on the other end?

[Coker]

My Kurtz PC88 had a pot inside for changing the AT sensitivity. I wonder if newer keyboards still use that, if even to tailor sensitivity for AT strip tolerances when the board is assembled.

[ProfD]

The synth that I remember having the best AT that I ever experienced (until recently) was the DSS-1. The level of variable filter cutoff control you could get with AT alone was nothing short of amazing.

I agree, the DSS1 action was one of the best synth actions ever.

Reads like the DSS-1 could make for an excellent synth action MIDI controller. Too bad it's built like a coffee table.

[Reezekeys]

My Kurtz PC88 had a pot inside for changing the AT sensitivity. I wonder if newer keyboards still use that, if even to tailor sensitivity for AT strip tolerances when the board is assembled.

 

As I mentioned above in a post over 3 years old, my Roland A800 controller has a small trimpot on the main board that adjusts AT sensitivity. Definitely not meant to be user-adjustable though. And I would call my Roland "current" â which it is â but definitely not "newer" since Roland has had this line of A-controllers since 2010!

[miden]

Kurz PC4 keybed aftertouch is awful! Almost impossible to invoke without an inordinate amount of pressure!

[EscapeRocks]

Just to add to the zombies....

 

I own 3 boards that have aftertouch. In order of good to not so good implementation

 

1. Arturia Keylab 61 MK2 The smoothest aftertouch I've ever played. Hard to accidentally trigger, yet very easy to get smooth CC from 0-127

2. NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk 2 NOt quite as smooth as the Arturia. Take a bit more pressure to invoke.

3. Roland Fantom X6. Need to place a brick on the keys to get any sort of aftertouch trigger.

 

Special shout out to my Alesis Vortex Wireless 2. It's aftertouch is up there with the Arturia.

[RABid]

After touch has improved over the years. I remember early Roland's that were basically on and off with very little in between. I don't remember anyone ever mentioning break in time on after touch, but I do remember a couple of threads here years ago about velocity. Both break in and a tendency for some keyboards to get "squishy" response after a few hours of heavy play, then returning back to normal at the beginning of the next night.