Are we left with heavy metal, hard rock, and hiphop?

[JakeJackson]

Maybe it's just an accident of time and place, but the last five clubs I've gone into have been playing one of the above. One good sign is that on a Saturday night at midnight, a DJ was playing hiphop, and half of the people at the bar were looking at their telephones. Not a soul was dancing. Still, it's depressing to face so much noise in so many places. I want to believe that bad music will fade away with time. There has always been bad, very popular music, and with time its weakness is exposed and it disappears. But somehow, the bad seems to be lingering, now, and even when people aren't listening, bar owners are continuing to pay for it.

 

Perhaps the real reason for my despair: These clubs would be perfect for a serious jazz trio or quartet or a good rock band. Or alt-country band. Or something else that can be good. They have a decent sound system,seat 200-300 people. One side of me says that there is hope. The absence of serious musicians means that there is a void that can be filled. Another side of me just hears vapid hopelessness or obscenities and fast, loud playing that doesn't have much going on except fast and loud.

 

The more immediate problem is how to talk to people at these clubs--I guess the only correct, decent thing to do is politely leave and go to the few places where the serious players play. But I always want to change people and places. And I hear people who play and listen to metal and hiphop talk about how they love other music, and I ask them why they play what they play if they love decent stuff. But they really don't seem to understand the difference between what they say they love and what they play. Is it just commercialism--these people are playing what they think people want to hear? I don't think so. They seem to like what they're doing. But the bands and DJ's don't draw much of an audience. Yet it's everywhere. Leaves me going down the road, feeling bad...

[Jazzmammal]

Obviously you're old as am I.

 

It's generational, our parents said the same thing, remember? My parents were going to see Lawrence Welk in Hollywood while I was going to the Gas Chamber on Signal Hill in Long Beach surrounded by oil wells. Think they were playing Welk in a place called the Gas Chamber?

 

Bob

[timwat]

I would gently suggest you examine the presuppositions that define:

 

"so much noise"

"bad music"

"something else that can be good"

"serious musician"

"vapid hopelessness"

"fast, loud playing that doesn't have much going on except fast and loud"

"the few places where the serious players play"

 

I think Bob is very correct - there's a natural generational gap between what an older musician has studied, pursued and loves (what has become the soundtrack of my life) and what a younger generation loves, pursues, sees as the unique artistic voice of their time.

 

And I'd also gently suggest if a musician is tempted to elevate jazz to some rarified, deified genre (more serious, better, more valuable than another genre...worthy of more respect, etc.), they're going to quickly become part of the generational problem rather than any kind of solution or bridge.

 

I believe what keeps musicians young (as well as what keeps us valid as contributing artists) is to seriously, deliberately seek to learn about these newer genres that initially repel us. WHY does the voice of this upcoming generation - many of whom are thoughtful, intelligent, creative, passionate - find a particular genre attractive, moving, passionate, etc.? If I don't get it, there's a decent chance that I haven't given it a fair shake yet. After valid, intentional exploration, it still may not be my cup of tea. But I'm convinced serious, talented artists are doing things in each of these genres - and that some of it, I'm fortunate to "get".

 

Just my 0.02, JakeJackson. Peace.

 

Tim

[Baldwin Funster]

I said the same thing 10 years ago.

[Synthoid]

I think Bob is very correct - there's a natural generational gap between what an older musician has studied, pursued and loves (what has become the soundtrack of my life) and what a younger generation loves, pursues, sees as the unique artistic voice of their time.

 

Agreed, however, even when I was in my 20's I didn't like Hip Hop or Heavy Metal... with the possible exception of UFO. Actually, I consider them more of a Hard Rock band.

[JakeJackson]

I really don't think it's generational. I'm not wanting Lawrence Welk while the kids are listening to the Stones.

 

I'm not sure that good music can be defined, but in broad terms, isn't there a difference between strings of cliches and obscenities and a lack of dynamic variation versus original lyrics and subtlety? Or is the argument that there is no such thing as bad music?

[Lindaru]

There is that which resonates with us and that which does not. Take what resonates and leave the rest.

 

 

I personally have an appreciation for all music, but I seek out what feels right to me for me at the time. I had stated earlier that my last few years I have gone from MOR style music that I create to more electronic/EDM. Why? Because I *feel* it.

 

As for hip hop, I like some of that, too. Mind you, it is not my personal choice to listen to gangsta style stuff because the message in that personally turns me off, but as I stated somewhere else on this forum, I believe there is room for all of it.

 

By the way, I will be 60 in a few months. Not sittin' in no rockin' chair.

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

I really don't think it's generational. I'm not wanting Lawrence Welk while the kids are listening to the Stones.

 

I'm not sure that good music can be defined, but in broad terms, isn't there a difference between strings of cliches and obscenities and a lack of dynamic variation versus original lyrics and subtlety? Or is the argument that there is no such thing as bad music?

 

You are, though. The elements you're using to define "good" vs "bad" are strictly the results of your formative era. Just like the old folks didn't think rock 'n roll had melody or meaning or musical worth, so are you saying the same.

 

But melody was not the coin of the realm in rock 'n roll. In fact, what most young people liked about it, what that their parents hated it. It was "theirs."

 

Measuring hip-hop against jazz is using a yardstick to measure gas; the two worlds use different gauges.

 

I play a monthly hip-hop residency with my soul band. Are the songs hard to learn? No. Learn the main loop and any B section. We can all do that in the next half hour.

 

Are they hard to play? Damn. Stinkers. That swingy grind is SO exact. Push it and you're squaring up. Pull it and you're lazing into slop. I'd love to tell you we get it right all the time, but the truth is, if five of the songs groove decently and consistently, that's a win.

 

Are they hard to PRODUCE? Impossible. Anyone who says hip-hop producers are not musicians, should just go try it. And no saying "I don't care for that kind of music" to get out of it; if I said, try to play Rach 5, you'd try first before deciding it wasn't for you.

 

The great crime of the last 40 years is music writers getting side-tracked by the samples and the non-singing, and missing what hip-hop did in terms of advancing the studio-as-instrument. Hip-hop is the "porn" of modern production: every cool and important advance, started there.

 

Ditto metal. If it's so easy....go pull it off. Harness that energy and keep it moving forward. If it's the anti-jazz, and anyone can do it...go do it.

 

Etc. It's just your preference vs the market. Calling your preference objectively correct is tempting...but also non-constructive. Time goes on. It's more comfortable to stay on solid ground, but a lot more fun to surf along with time...

 

Or else you end up with this:

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

I'm 70 and I still try to listen to what's relevant now and keep up. There was a show a few weeks ago talking about changes in music and they mentioned gangsta rap is old and done.

 

I will occasionally hit the scan button in the car just to check stuff out even though I mostly listen to KKJZ a very diverse jazz station. I caught one DJ in the middle of a loud spiel and he said "And now here's some old school rap like it was back in the day". Wanna feel old? Here that on the radio. The stuff he played is 15-20 years old already.

 

Remember how you felt about 20 year old classic rock in the mid 80's? I thought it sucked. That's when Thriller came out and I absolutely loved it. Led Zep, The Beatles, Santana, The Doors were pretty tired then and I certainly didn't want to hear it. They'd been played to death just like Elvis had and I couldn't stand listening to him either. Old 50's comedy skits were big in Vegas in the 70's.

 

The good news now is young people are actually a pretty diverse bunch. I'll be with a mixed group on occasion and will mention I'm a player and do jazz, blues and rock. I'm surprised sometimes how many will drop some famous names we all know and say they like them. It may not be their primary party music but some definitely do not disdain it like I did the big bands at the time.

 

Bob

[Jazzmammal]

MOI you and I posted at the same time. You are absolutely correct and I posted similar thoughts a few years ago. I watched several hour long YT vids profiling some big name rap and EDM producers where they showed exactly how they work. It was amazing. I did some studio work years ago, I have good ears and I can hear all the subtle little things going on in these productions.

 

These guys did not rise up to live in 20 million dollar mansions because they're no talent morons.

 

Your Anka clip reminds me of the drummer and bass player who were with Manilow for 6 years. One told me they were known as the band that cried themselves to sleep every night. He then shrugged and said Barry also paid for his house in Manhattan Beach.

 

Bob

[Lindaru]

Or else you end up with this:

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

 

[vanderSchoot]

I will be 50 next year, so don't really listen to modern dance music and r&b/ hip hop. I do go to the gym twice a week and that's my two hours enjoying the latest dancemix. Last sunday it was so bad, that i was proud to be an old guy complaining about todays music.

 

Yes i do like some types of dance/trance/ r&b and think they brought something very refreshing to music , but man it can sound godawfully bad.

Like a supersaw that married a chainsaw and both are argueing all day long.

[timwat]

Or else you end up with this:

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

The Bad Plus, Smells Like Teen Spirit, @ the Catalina Jazz Club in Hollywood, CA. I played there - that freaking piano is the brightest, tinniest grand I think I've ever played:

[video:youtube]

 

 

[Markay]

Or else you end up with this:

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

Far out brussel sprout, ah seen it but ah don believe it.

 

Teen angst coated in sugar and delivered with a smile. There outta be a law....

[CowboyNQ]

Or is the argument that there is no such thing as bad music?

Jake, I would never argue that. Although there's going to be subjectivity involved in defining "bad".

 

But I would argue against what appears to be the assertion that any one one musical genre (ie. Hip Hop, Hard Rock, Jazz, etc.) is bad by definition.

[Synthoid]

Like a supersaw that married a chainsaw and both are argueing all day long.

 

Perhaps with a MF-101 Lowpass Filter and a bit of resonance, that could sound pretty good.

[Markyboard]

I'll listen to anything...once. Fortunately there's enough of everything that it can all coexist. The music genres I don't care for aren't hurting me. But nor should it hurt others by me expressing my opinion about them from time to time.

 

This forum has exposed me to all kinds of great music and artists that I may not have heard otherwise. But certainly not from this thread.

[Joe Muscara]

But I always want to change people and places.

Many of us do. But I learned a long time ago that the only person I might be able to change is me, and that's still a tough sell.

 

I can't make people like something or do something that they don't want to do. At best, I can open the door and hope they come in. My attitude about it is, if they're happy that's great. But I realize everyone is on a different path. When I find someone on the same path as me, I appreciate it for what it's worth.

 

Or is the argument that there is no such thing as bad music?

TBH, I'd say that. But I'd say, "there's no such thing as bad music, just music you don't like. That's fine. Because people don't all like what you like, either. And that's what keeps the world an interesting place."

[synthizen2]

They seem to like what they're doing. But the bands and DJ's don't draw much of an audience. Yet it's everywhere. Leaves me going down the road, feeling bad...

 

 

Change happens slowly. Establishments are wary to change the current business model, whatever it happens to be. If there is "change in the air" with regard to the present clientele of these venues, it won't manifest itself for another 5, 6, 7 years. That's just the way it is.

 

The 3 genres you mentioned have a many-decades-long established paradigm fix on what these venues are about and what they are expected to present to an audience. It takes a real determined artist to attempt to upset that cart, and it also needs to be married to a zeitgeist shift in the general culture. This doesn't happen often.

 

Probably what you are seeing in the club scene is nothing more than people taking the "pragmatic" way out in order to find work. We've all done that to one extent or another. It is what it is.... until it isn't.

[Threadslayer]

 

The Bad Plus, Smells Like Teen Spirit, @ the Catalina Jazz Club in Hollywood, CA. I played there - that freaking piano is the brightest, tinniest grand I think I've ever played:

[video:youtube]

 

No shit. It sounds like a tack piano.

[PianoMan51]

No contrary vision here.

 

In my experience, pop music is directly tied to being a teenager moving into adult life. Every teenager has one big job: MOVE AWAY FROM MOM AND DAD. In our culture music is one of the tools that we use to change our mental perspective. Understanding love lost, and won. Accepting and embracing our sexual drive. Grouping around our peers, rather than our families. And repeating and repeating that message until it becomes natural. And if that message doesn't help drive you away from your home, you've done it wrong.

 

So, many years later we all find that the music of our adolescence is a strange attractor from which we can't break away.

 

This is nature. If you're lucky enough to grow old you will see your most precious idols move to the back benches.

 

Cheers.

[CEB]

After Rachmaninoff died it all went to hell.

[Fusker]

After Rachmaninoff died it all went to hell.

 

LOL -

 

Old school crooners used to complain that anyone using a mic wasn't a real singer.

 

I think every generation has "good and bad". Tons of good music out there right now as far as I'm concerned, just have to sift through the crap...but it has always been that way.

 

Just off the top of my head that I listened to last night were Aloe Blacc, Jason Mraz, Bruno Mars and plenty more.

[ProfD]

Yep. This complaint has been going on for a few generations now.

 

I grew up with the golden age of Hip-Hop. The music has changed to the point that my favorite artists and songs from that genre are "old". A lot of the newer stuff sounds like garbage to me.

 

I've got a private party gig in a few weeks. My band plays the first two hours. We're hired to play some funky Jazz. I offered to DJ the rest of the party.

 

Since the b'day guy and I are close in age, I figured my collection of music would suffice. Yet, he doesn't want to hear the "old" music we grew up listening too.

 

So, I've gotta round up and mix in a healthy dose of this:

[video:youtube]watch?v=lsJLLEwUYZM

 

While the lyrics are straight garbage, fortunately, I haven't gotten too old to appreciate how the track will affect the dance floor.

[KenElevenShadows]

Maybe it's just an accident of time and place, but the last five clubs I've gone into have been playing one of the above.

 

The absence of serious musicians means that there is a void that can be filled. Another side of me just hears vapid hopelessness or obscenities and fast, loud playing that doesn't have much going on except fast and loud.

 

The more immediate problem is how to talk to people at these clubs--I guess the only correct, decent thing to do is politely leave and go to the few places where the serious players play.

 

I love metal and hard rock. And sometimes hip-hop. I guess I just adore vapid hopelessness and fast loud playing.

 

How do you talk to people who love metal and hard rock?

 

"Hey, how's it going?"

"Great! How about you?"

 

If you're going to assume that a metal musician (and I am not a metal musician, although I greatly admire great metal musicians and bands) or hard rock or hip-hop is beneath you and not serious enough, I could see where you might have difficulty conversing.

[MotiDave]

Maybe it's just an accident of time and place, but the last five clubs I've gone into have been playing one of the above.

 

The absence of serious musicians means that there is a void that can be filled. Another side of me just hears vapid hopelessness or obscenities and fast, loud playing that doesn't have much going on except fast and loud.

 

The more immediate problem is how to talk to people at these clubs--I guess the only correct, decent thing to do is politely leave and go to the few places where the serious players play.

 

I love metal and hard rock. And sometimes hip-hop. I guess I just vapid hopelessness and fast loud playing.

 

How do you talk to people who love metal and hard rock?

 

"Hey, how's it going?"

"Great! How about you?"

 

If you're going to assume that a metal musician (and I am not a metal musician, although I greatly admire great metal musicians and bands) or hard rock or hip-hop is beneath you and not serious enough, I could see where you might have difficulty conversing.

 

This.

[EscapeRocks]

Maybe it's just an accident of time and place, but the last five clubs I've gone into have been playing one of the above.

 

The absence of serious musicians means that there is a void that can be filled. Another side of me just hears vapid hopelessness or obscenities and fast, loud playing that doesn't have much going on except fast and loud.

 

The more immediate problem is how to talk to people at these clubs--I guess the only correct, decent thing to do is politely leave and go to the few places where the serious players play.

 

I love metal and hard rock. And sometimes hip-hop. I guess I just vapid hopelessness and fast loud playing.

 

How do you talk to people who love metal and hard rock?

 

"Hey, how's it going?"

"Great! How about you?"

 

If you're going to assume that a metal musician (and I am not a metal musician, although I greatly admire great metal musicians and bands) or hard rock or hip-hop is beneath you and not serious enough, I could see where you might have difficulty conversing.

 

This.

 

Double this

 

 

I'm classically trained and play in a Journey trib.

 

I also love metal, hard rock, and hip hop.

 

In my area, the metal, hard rock, and hip-hop genres fill the clubs.

[Threadslayer]

 

In my area, the metal, hard rock, and hip-hop genres fill the clubs.

I can picture hip-hop and to a certain extent hard rock (which is a pretty broad category), but just out of curiosity, what does the average metal club-goer look like?

[Synthoid]

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RHNi1Am2a5s/UfCp6SeB6iI/AAAAAAAAAxg/ufRHSzf2NHo/s1600/tumblr_mjkbceAL631r2ijpzo1_500.png

 

[KenElevenShadows]

 

In my area, the metal, hard rock, and hip-hop genres fill the clubs.

I can picture hip-hop and to a certain extent hard rock (which is a pretty broad category), but just out of curiosity, what does the average metal club-goer look like?

 

If there's metal going, it's the people bobbing their head up and down with a giant grin on their face.

 

In my opinion, metal fans are the most die-hard, loyal fans. And in particular, metal fans in South America. These people will travel over three countries over several days to see their favorite metal band perform, sing every word passionately at the top of their lungs even though they may not speak the language, and smile for days afterwards.

 

I LOVE people like these, and have met quite a few through my travels in South America. Bonding through music. I love it.

 

I've been in clubs where we didn't speak each other's languages very well, but we were bonding through music. They'd find out I was from Los Angeles, and give me a big hug and shout, "RED HOT CHILI PEPPERS!" or "VAN HALEN!"

 

I listen to reggae, dub, experimental, bluegrass, '70s Nigerian funk, Ethiopian jazz, kozmigroov/spacey jazz, electronica, African field recordings, pop, P-funk, and my musician neighbor with just an acoustic guitar.

 

And I listen to metal, hard rock, and hip-hop.

 

But if the OP thinks that he's intellectually superior or above me or anyone else who listens to these genres because he listens to a different kind of music, hey, I guess we're going to have trouble conversing.

 

http://www.elevenshadows.com/travels/india2008/images/1stsdcard-ladakh-partone/0002rjdio2.jpg

 

http://elevenshadows.com/travels/miscellaneous/jimmypage/images/190jimmypage-kenlee-jackwhite-G3-082411.jpg