Bill Spencer Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 I'm checking out this cool James Taylor live version of "Still Crazy After All These Years": https://youtu.be/LY79bVIhUqQ At the beginning of Verse 2, which starts @ 1:05, there's an extra beat (in the third bar, the way I hear it)- gotta be a mistake, but the band, being total pros, make it sound seamless. My guess is that the change on beat 3 of the first bar (which is in the original PS recording) throws off JT, as he starts the second phrase late. Don't think they would add that beat on purpose to the arrangement... What do you guys think? Spence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EscapeRocks Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 ooh boy... tough to tell. I've watched it a few times and notice something else: His mouth is closed when you hear the "...man..." come. Vocal tracks? The rest of the video before that and after is spot on. David Gig Rig:Depends on the day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowtraveler Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 His mouth is closed when you hear the "...man..." come. Vocal tracks? It's some kind of fix in the post mix to smooth over the late entrance, I believe. Looks to me like they purposely slid part of his vocal track out of sync with picture for a second or two to make the phrasing less clunky, figuring the lip sync error would be less likely to disturb the viewer than an obvious late entrance. Definitely an extra beat there, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kawai James Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Well spotted/heard Bill. Also, kudos to the post production/editing team for smoothing out the glitch! JT drops the F-bomb towards the end too... Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own. Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowtraveler Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 JT drops the F-bomb towards the end too... What? Mild-mannered JT dropped an F-bomb during the Library of Congress Gershwin Prize tribute to Paul Simon? Can't be! I hear that bit he added to the last verse as "mad-dog barking crazy." I could be wrong, though--maybe he's such a huge Paul Simon fan that he got a little carried away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElmerJFudd Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 It's a mistake that got fixed in post for sure. This is very typical for live performances that are going to be archived. They have a live feed mix and record a multi track of the performance so that JT or whoever can go back and fix stuff like this in an after show take. But what they usually do is get a camera feed that's not on the singer during the mistake so you don't see out of sync-lips on the official version. But it seems in this case all cameras may have been on James at this particular moment, or the video take was a done deal live. Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 I started to suggest editing a clip of the keyboard in that spot would be less obvious but someone here would have picked up on the chords in the video not matching the audio. It would have been less obvious to throw in a shot of the crowd for that edit. No timing issues on a crowd shot unless they are singing along or clapping. This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowtraveler Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 But it seems in this case all cameras may have been on James at this particular moment, or the video take was a done deal live. That show was recorded live on the night, but not broadcast until a month later. The norm for a production like that is that most if not all of the cameras are recorded as iso's, along with the master line cut of the show as the director called it during the live performance. The whole show would then be re-edited in post, with the line cut probably being used the majority of the time in the final version. There was certainly coverage available from other cameras for those few seconds, but cutting away from the world-famous lead vocalist while he's singing is a creative no-no. It would seem jarring and call attention to the problem. Sliding the vocal track a little was much a better fix--most viewers would never even notice the extra beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElmerJFudd Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Exactly. I had a chance to sit down stairs at the Letterman show once with Harvey Goldberg and go over his rig. They have a long history of having live acts on the program and they've archived all of it. Not sure if it's available but if the rights holder (I'm assuming CBS) made it available - what a great collection to own. Anyway, he was saying the setup at the time was an SSL C200 or 300 which provided stereo mix to video and a RADAR hard disk recorder capturing the multitrack. Every act they have on gets a chance to look over the performance before it goes to air that night and if they want, retrack a vocal or what have you. Most often when they fix vocal they take a camera feed of the drummer or keyboard player or something..... Ha ha. But when you have both a vocal buggered AND a punch-in necessary for the band... I guess you get something like we're seeing in the JT video above. Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthaholic Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 I'm checking out this cool James Taylor live version of "Still Crazy After All These Years": https://youtu.be/LY79bVIhUqQ At the beginning of Verse 2, which starts @ 1:05, there's an extra beat (in the third bar, the way I hear it)- gotta be a mistake, but the band, being total pros, make it sound seamless. My guess is that the change on beat 3 of the first bar (which is in the original PS recording) throws off JT, as he starts the second phrase late. Don't think they would add that beat on purpose to the arrangement... What do you guys think? Spence Overall I thought it was a very poor version. Nobody seems all that familiar with the song, and the arrangement is flat-out wrong if they are trying to follow Simon's. It sounds like James had never sung it before. The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Every act they have on gets a chance to look over the performance before it goes to air that night and if they want, retrack a vocal or what have you. Most often when they fix vocal they take a camera feed of the drummer or keyboard player or something. I never knew that. It makes complete sense, I just never reflected on it. I know it sounds crazy, but for personal (professional/academic) reasons...can you put me in touch with him so I can ask about this? Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoken6 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Ha ha, wonderful. I love the drummer giving a very clear side-stick to line everyone up: "THIS IS ONE RIGHT HERE, PEOPLE!" (I'm assuming a waltz, to be consistent with the OP). It reminds me of the beginning of "Africa" (once the band are all in), which is 3 beats of A and 5 beats of C#m, across two bars. The number of times I've seen crappy covers that play C#m over 6 beats... And then there's this (0:27): Table stakes for any drummer that wants to be in a band with me. Cheers, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groove58 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 And then there's this (0:27): Table stakes for any drummer that wants to be in a band with me. And again at 1:29 ... and on the key change at 3:43 ... no dropped beats, just tricky accents, but it took our drummer a minute to get his head around it! This one also, esp. the downbeat into the head at 0:44, and the last two bars of the head at 1:04-1:08 ... again, no dropped beats, just tricky accents (and a great Rhodes solo from Jan Hammer at 2:42-4:12 with some cool ring modulator work!). [video:youtube] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuzikTeechur Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Ha ha, wonderful. I love the drummer giving a very clear side-stick to line everyone up: "THIS IS ONE RIGHT HERE, PEOPLE!" Absolutely! When I'm accompanying my students and something goes sideways, or the jazz band gets turned around at the turnaround, everyone's radar is at full attention looking for something - ANYTHING - to telegraph where the beat is! I think those triplets in the EP on the turnaround are what did it; and probably only one run-through before the show. Muzikteechur is Lonnie, in Kittery, Maine. HS music teacher: Concert Band, Marching Band, Jazz Band, Chorus, Music Theory, AP Music Theory, History of Rock, Musical Theatre, Piano, Guitar, Drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outkaster Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Ha ha, wonderful. I love the drummer giving a very clear side-stick to line everyone up: "THIS IS ONE RIGHT HERE, PEOPLE!" (I'm assuming a waltz, to be consistent with the OP). It reminds me of the beginning of "Africa" (once the band are all in), which is 3 beats of A and 5 beats of C#m, across two bars. The number of times I've seen crappy covers that play C#m over 6 beats... And then there's this (0:27): Table stakes for any drummer that wants to be in a band with me. Cheers, Mike. The Lionel Richie song sounds wrong unless I never noticed that before? I learned the song from someone in bootcamp in 1987 on the base, we had a spinet here. "Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello" noblevibes.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EscapeRocks Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 It's a mistake that got fixed in post for sure. This is very typical for live performances that are going to be archived. They have a live feed mix and record a multi track of the performance so that JT or whoever can go back and fix stuff like this in an after show take. But what they usually do is get a camera feed that's not on the singer during the mistake so you don't see out of sync-lips on the official version. But it seems in this case all cameras may have been on James at this particular moment, or the video take was a done deal live. Cool. thanks for reminding of this...you'd think my time spent in my radio/tv major would have me realize this Going back an watching again a few times I can now see it's a production fix for broadcast. David Gig Rig:Depends on the day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesG Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 everyone's radar is at full attention looking for something - ANYTHING - to telegraph where the beat is! I play with the same bass player in about four different big bands. Guy is super-solid - as soon as things start to go sideways, he plays a couple of serious thumps and I switch to quarter notes for a couple of bars. Remarkable how a horn section will get back in line after that! Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3 Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9 Roland: VR-09, RD-800 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EscapeRocks Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 everyone's radar is at full attention looking for something - ANYTHING - to telegraph where the beat is! I play with the same bass player in about four different big bands. Guy is super-solid - as soon as things start to go sideways, he plays a couple of serious thumps and I switch to quarter notes for a couple of bars. Remarkable how a horn section will get back in line after that! Luckily my drummer is an educated music teacher/professor. Now and then when adrenaline takes over we can go sideways with tempo and timing. He always gets us back on the beat/groove with some simple tricks. For me it's his hi-hat. I always make sure his hat and snare are solid in my in-ears. Having someone like this in the band is invaluable! David Gig Rig:Depends on the day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Mizzell Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Well, getting back to more simplistic stuff than you fine folks are currently discussing, I think this one is pretty close to #1 on the list of concert stumbles ... [video:youtube] Les Mizzell ---------------------------------------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindaru Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Les . . . I recognize this video from another thread here. The audio is deliberately manipulated by some guy who specializes in making "epic fail" music by detuning some of the vocalists and/or instruments and then reposting. We had some really good over the videos in that thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Towne Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 I think that is a real video and not a "shred" video. I think the story behind that was that the keyboard backing track was played at the wrong sample rate, hence the different key. Endorsing Artist/Ambassador for MAG Organs and Motion Sound Amplifiers, Organ player for SRT - www.srtgroove.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammondDave Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Yeah, that Van Halen video is legit. '55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400’s; Wurlitzer 206; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module; B3X; Model D6; Moog Model D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Harrison Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 And then there's this (0:27): Table stakes for any drummer that wants to be in a band with me. The Lionel Richie song sounds wrong unless I never noticed that before? Not wrong, just tricky: instead of holding the V chord across beats 3 & 4 of a turn-around bar and then hitting the I chord on the downbeat of the next bar in a regular way, they do just one-and-a-quarter beats on the V chord (five accented sixteenth notes and one sixteenth note rest), then hit the I chord halfway through the fourth beat and let it hang over to the first beat of the next bar. The early I chord followed by the unaccented downbeat is what makes the timing feel slippery. They do this in the middle of both verses (0:27 & 1:29) and the guitar solo (3:02), and then they string two of these together on the key change before the outro (3:43), but this time they don't hit the I chord early but let the whole fourth beat of the bar hang (apart from a single V-chord stab on the sixteenth note after "4") before hitting the I chord on the downbeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindaru Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Mitch and Dave . . . I stand corrected. Thank you. I shall now proceed to watch it again and laugh my ass off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nadroj Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 I noticed this at the Glastonbury Festival a couple of days ago. Having just duetted Stayin' Alive with Barry Gibb (which incidentally, I absolutely loved) Coldplay front man Chris Martin hops onto the piano to introduce the final song of the whole weekend, of the whole festival. While playing a lovely melody on the piano, himself, in front of hundreds of thousands, (millions if you count those watching at home), he accidentally lands on an E when he meant to hit E# (or F). In the key of D#m. He pauses, laughs into the microphone and continues playing before commenting "That was so wrong...Never mind!" before continuing. HAH! If he can do that I can make any mistake I want, anywhere! Video is here: Skip to 01:23:40 for context, mistake is at 01:23:48. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p03yjzwq/glastonbury-2016-coldplay EDIT: Youtube link for those outside of the UK, thanks to Kawai James for the link. [video:youtube]66nqp3R_jis Hammond SKX Mainstage 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthaholic Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Peter Gabriel is especially prone to screw up. He's totally lost from the band at the beginning of this one and has to re-sing the first line. I think it's partly because the drums are loud and the tuning clashes with the key of the song, but it could be he just can't hear the keyboards (who ever can?!?!?) The whole thing is a cluster&%#k - Sting is lost, Kenny Kirkland seems oblivious... [video:youtube] And this one apparently is screwed from the start: [video:youtube] The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Peter Gabriel is especially prone to screw up. I saw PG during the Us tour and I don't recall the tune, but he started it on keys, stopped, and said, "that's what musicians call 'a fuck up!'" We all laughed and he started it again. "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotiDave Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Yeah, that Van Halen video is legit. Serves em right for backtracking the keyboards on perhaps THE signature keyboard song of that decade. they charged enough $$$ to hire a keyboardist for a couple songs per concert and drag him around the globe. The baiting I do is purely for entertainment value. Please feel free to ignore it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoken6 Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 duetted Stayin' Alive with Barry Gibb (which incidentally, I absolutely loved) Coldplay **ee-it! Who knew Coldplay could groove like that? Yes, there's some fairly heavyweight support from the sidemen (keys, strings, percussion I think, maybe a loop), but the core groove from Guy Berryman and Will Champion is astonishing. I liked how Chris Martin laughs off the mistake as well. He's got the charm and goodwill to pull it off. Cheers, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losendoskeys Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Great to see the pro's can make f-ups the same as we mere mortals. Here's one from the Steve Hackett set at the recent Stonefree Festival - Nick Beggs (in the kilt!) struggles to sort out his bass eggslicer......! [video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CW76gNze8E&feature=youtu.be Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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