The arrogance of Yamaha?

[Bachus]

Maybe its just me, but i saw this reaction from a Yamaha representative when someone inquired about only having 256 user memmory locations for arps, and not having a sampler ( or many of the other creative tools they took away from the Motif/Montage)

 

Bad Mister wrote:

 

No not really. People THINK they want to create their own arpeggios; people also THINK they want to create their own instruments (sample); the reality is that they purchase Libraries and they will be able to get new arpeggios either with those libraries or by loading them in. Not very limiting at all, actually.

 

I stress the word THINK, because creating your own arpeggios might seem to be an easy thing, until you have your first experience do so. If you are a Motif, Motif ES, XS or XF owner, how many (truthfully) arpeggios have you written. Even if your answer is 1000, you would be the exception not the rule. It is now February - the product ships in May. just saying.

 

To me this feels so much like arrogance... Because he is telling people that they dont know what they want and that they cant use those features anyway because they must be brainless... He is telling people that only Yamaha knows what they want and that they just should frack up, stop complaining, and buy the dang product and use it as Yamaha tells them to do..

 

They are taking away the creativity and giving people a childrens box with building blocks..

[Aidan]

However true some of those observations are, I do think Phil C has a rather unfortunate way of coming over on Motifator sometimes.

[DulceLabs.com]

You should have seen his responses to the Reface haters.

[CEB]

That is Phil. Phil is a great guy. Phil is a member here and a friend to several old members here. Phil is telling you exactly what he thinks the truth is based on his experience is interacting with his customer base.

 

I razz Phil sometimes but Yamaha would be a better company if that had a few more Phils.

 

Corporations are people too.

[Bachus]

Phil or not, member here or not, but it made me loose all my interest in the montage in just a few secconds... ( not that it will stay away for long)

 

Its not how he is saying it, but what he is saying about the philosophy behind the Montage...

[vanderSchoot]

I think that happens across our digital environment....that the ''big boys'' decide what we want.

Even facebook can controle parts of the outcome of the presidential election by the use of clever implemented algorithms that can help to achieve a predetermened outcome. Of course google and facebook claim they will always be neutral,.....but one has to be very critical about such developements.

 

The Yamaha Velcro (release date 2032) will help you to ''choose''what music you are going to play, because Yamaha knows that even when you do compose your own music and create your own sounds in 2032, you are the exception not the rule. And how many of your own compositions have made it high up the hitlists ?

 

 

 

 

[miden]

Truth - and honesty in opinion - is sometimes a bitter pill to swallow.

As a former yammie owner, I too had run-ins with him, however he has my total respect in his knowledge and experience. And I would add that if he says it, well you better belive it! He, in my experience, does not dilly-dally with facts. I think he is a very good "reader" of people, even in text. A bit abrupt? Yes sometimes, but one of the smartest keys guys I have come across!

[CEB]

A while back I got my panties in a bunch. I hadn't used the vocoder in a longtime and needed to setup something up on my Yamaha. I went on a rant about why yamaha just have a vocoder on/off button. In 5 minutes I received an electronic document with step by step user guide for the vocoder.

 

 

Phil is here. Phil is everywhere.

 

[MIDI2XS]

However true some of those observations are, I do think Phil C has a rather unfortunate way of coming over on Motifator sometimes.

B_M hasn't actively participated on Motifator for about a year and a half. He toned things down for a while over at yamahasynth, but I've noticed that the snarkiness is ramping back up again.

 

[Philip Clark]

Phil definitely comes off as arrogant in forum posts/text, though I do not think intentionally. But I've met him, and face-to-face he's a seriously nice guy.

 

 

[Cybersoniq]

However true some of those observations are, I do think Phil C has a rather unfortunate way of coming over on Motifator sometimes.

He toned things down for a while over at yamahasynth, but I've noticed that the snarkiness is ramping back up again.

Based on many of the curious questions/requests he gets there, I'm impressed at his patience & only mild snarkiness. The Yamahasynth forum crowd is no KC

[Bill W]

Sounds like typical Phil to me, but he does know his stuff and he has helped me out before. I also think he's probably right for the most part when it comes to people creating their own ARPs and samples.

 

To me, the Montage appears to be a seriously dumbed-down instrument from the Motif in some ways, but that's a sign of the times. If you take away the things that are not often used (sequencer, sampling, creation of user ARPs) then the product is cheaper to manufacture and the profits are larger.

 

This keyboard really doesn't make any sense to me. Hey, at least it has full-sized keys and aftertouch (wait, does it have aftertouch?)...

 

 

[MotiDave]

I personally liked Bad Mister's snarkiness, but I'm sorta a jerk so maybe I don't help him much here lol. he cracked me up alot more often than he insulted my sensibilities with his precision incisions, cutting to the crux and viscerating pseudo-technologists who challenged his knowlege. Sure he's an ardent defender of Yamaha, at times homerish. thats his job, deal with it, add a grain of salt as you evaluate his advice. just one example, he used to recommend Stagepas for live speakers. I don't know anyone here who'd second that as a good choice for keyboards only. But he's a Yamaha employee, he's forbidden from recommending competitor products, we don't expect the QSC rep to recommend DXRs, do we? just don't ask a company employee to pick from different competitors, its not fair to ask that.

 

Over at motivator, alot of times people just want to argue with BM about Yamaha at large, and they'd select a technology point to drive their pet issue. generally didn't work out for them as they didn't know the subject matter like he does. He did leave Motivator a long time ago, I think he's missed over there as I find the yamahasynth forum to be so clunky I hate to even go over there.

 

As to Montage, of course their architecture decisions for one product don't and never can please everyone. thats just how it is, they need to mass market it to recoup the investment on top of the effective per unit margin.

 

but dude solved problems for me enough times I owe him more than a couple rounds. treat him with respect and and don't phrase Yamaha insults in the form of a question and he would always help.

 

Montage seems more geared to performers vs people are going to produce professional grade music directly onboard. I agree inability to direct sample seems an oversight as that has alot of live performance utility (if thats true). I've sampled a couple things into XF to then use in Voices.

 

overall my suspicion is their market target is on the mark, professional producers aren't producing finished music product onboard workstations anymore and there were aspects to XF as a performer I see they've included in Montage. I don't produce, I only perform, this would have been a better board for me vs XF. is it that much better I need to upgrade, well thats a different question. tbd and not immediately. But having every element of every part in every Performance available for unique customization at the Performance level was a huge one for me. other parts of the architecture I'm still figuring out, not seen it and don't fully understand it - and I already speak XF.

 

yes, it has aftertouch.

[HammondDave]

This is true. Manufacturers are dumbing down their products. Maybe it is a sign of the times.

 

Regarding Phil, he has always been very helpful to me. And he is probabl correct that few people used the sampler to record samples (although I built a nice little business from it), and fewer programmed their own arpeggios.

[miden]

..... and fewer programmed their own arpeggios.

 

especially on the XS/XF line - but the ES arps were a lot more straightforward to do.

[CEB]

I like the philosophy of the Montage. .... I wish it was about $500 cheaper for what I am getting. I like the macro control and being able to initial and control the rate of changes with an auxilliary expression pedal. It may make a perfect performance synth for me. I don't need sequencers or samplers or arps or Karma. The Montage would being joining a 3 board rig that already includes a Kronos and a FA.

 

My focus now is going to be finding out how I can do what the Montage does with my existing gear. Even if I can't mimic its functionality I am surviving without a Montage now by playing back fixed edited samples on the FA and Kronos.

[Jim Alfredson]

I agree with and completely understand why they nixed onboard sampling. Who wants to mess with that mess? It's so much easier on a DAW.

 

For a performance synth it does seem rather strange to put such an arbitrary limit on the number of arpeggios. If his argument is that they are too hard to program... well, make them easier to program.

 

Yes, I realize I just contradicted myself in those two paragraphs. But it would be much easier to simplify making arpeggios (for example, just play them in either in real time or step time) than to simplify sampling. Though with a touch-screen it would be much easier than without.

[Threadslayer]

B_M hasn't actively participated on Motifator for about a year and a half.

I didn't know anybody actively participated on Motifator anymore. I gave up on it years ago and it was down to a handful of posts a week back then.

[MotiDave]

agree. I go over to motivator once in a great while, get bored quickly. I'm not completely confused by my XF anymore so I don't need urgent "how do i fix _____???" advice like i did a few years ago.

 

which is good as BM is gone anyway. 5-pin still is helping people out, he's around here all the time too. but BM left a void thats slowly killing that place. not sure why people will shop at keyfax first if nobody is getting good solution advice.

 

 

[MurMan]

... I agree with and completely understand why they nixed onboard sampling. Who wants to mess with that mess? ...

Mess is the correct description. I played an XS for several years and thought that its sampling interface was horrible. Can't remember the details now, but they even re-defined basic sampling terminology making it very non-intuitive.

 

Yamaha may have decided that these features cost them too much to support.

[Aidan]

However true some of those observations are, I do think Phil C has a rather unfortunate way of coming over on Motifator sometimes.

B_M hasn't actively participated on Motifator for about a year and a half. He toned things down for a while over at yamahasynth, but I've noticed that the snarkiness is ramping back up again.

 

Well, that shows how long it is since I darkened those doors. And I do agree they were (are) quite a fractious bunch.

[nadroj]

I dunno, I feel the guy kinda has a point.

[David Emm]

He DOES have a point and its not some huge revelation, nor is it a personal slap. Its the evolution of synth design. The Montage will be a bit of a competitor for Nord Stage pianos, since it has a lot more synth-clout, IMO. I'd bet an Eventide delay pedal that stage pianos with some added candy outsell workstations by a wide margin. Its hard to imagine that most people who would want to write their own arpps would not go for more focused software options. That goes triple for sampling. Seriously, have you ever done more than grab a few one-shots or sound effects? Shaping and normalizing a complex sample into a playable patch takes superhuman focus. I feel no shame in tweaking library sounds into the shapes I need. It sure beats building a piano or brass patch from scratch all the time.

In addition, to get that super-pro build aroma, you generally have to pay about $2000 minimum and up. There are nice exceptions like Casio's PX5S, but we all know where the curve resides on build quality. I suspect that the Montage will be popular with casuals players who want an all-in-one solution that's not a Tyros. It also seems natural to picture a Montage with a laptop above it running a DAW, especially with dance types who will flock to the FM-X and the big knob for stutters and sweeps. Those will (theoretically) be the main buyer groups. Just my thumbnail opinion.

BTW, I often create my own arpeggios by the arcane method of playing them by hand. I get in the neighborhood, noodle & effect until I come up good chunks I can cut-&-paste at will and fun is had by all. I don't even quantize; it just adds work to the load, which I can avoid with enough woodshed-ly persistence. The occasional smidge of imperfection lends 'character' to the results. That's what I call it, anyway.

I'm not a Montage candidate, but I feel oddly drawn to it. Its like a mutant cross between a piano and a pipe organ with a mass of registers. I once heard it said that playing the pipe organ was like having sex with an octopus. I wonder what organ they were playing. Wannamaker?

 

 

 

 

 

[miden]

Thing is though, isn't the montage going to be priced at about the same as the XF? At least that's what I'm being told down here (Oz)

[ElmerJFudd]

There isn't anyone else I would go to with a question about any Yamaha synth - Motifs in particular other than Phil Clendeninn aka Bad Mister. He isn't Yamaha - he's just Phil. As "senior product specialist" we may assume he speaks for Yamaha, but I find from his posts and interviews that he speaks for himself more than anything. He's been at it a loooong time, and of course has some strong opinions - often right, rarely wrong, but either way - worth consideration. Case in point...

 

[video:youtube]

 

More often than not we tend to listen to a demo or watch a youtube video to get an idea of wether or not we like a keyboard we can't get our hands on to try out. We also say we like this patch or that patch - we're an especially picky bunch about acoustic pianos, rhodes, wurlys, hammonds, etc. But do we always take into consideration how a patch will fit in a mix, or if it will work in situations other than us just playing it at home or in the shop? Maybe, maybe not. But words of wisdom regardless.

 

With the Montage I feel Yamaha was at a point where they were hearing from users that they were interested in something less workstation-like and geared more towards live performance. Then in their other ear they are hearing from the new hit makers that they want a synth that can make crazy sounds. Then, just because they can, they drop in a new Bösendorfer 290 Imperial Premium Grand Piano library. And there you have it... the Montage. A little something for everyone.

[dsetto]

Bachus,

 

I understand your interpretation of BM's response. That said, I'll mirror others' responses, but with an excess of words.

--

I'm eternally grateful for Phil's support of an instrument that was part of my rebirth. I've had the honor to speak to him in person. He's even more enlightening there.

 

He's a good man. And he's very smart & intuitive with matters musical, technical, & engineering. Yamaha is fortunate to have him as an ambassador. A few years ago, when I weighed my workstation options, I included Bad_Mister as a potential asset for the Yamaha board. He exceeded my expectations - and beyond. I've learned so much by learning the XF. There are so many things I had never done. And with a very quick lesson in person, I was going deep in sussing out the power of the Montage.

 

Now, I THINK i will create my own arpeggios. I may get to that one day. I THINK I will create my own instruments. I've done a few delicious ones. (Computer in a different room, only for the internet for support - motifator, BM, 5pin, & DPolich's vid.) And because of my experience, I didn't take personal offense when reading his statement, as I happily placed myself as part of the exception.

 

---

I had an incredibly inspiring XF session yesterday.

 

I took a stock sine. A ____ stock sine. I applied what Phil taught me about pipe lengths, and I modeled it after the organ's approach, without the 9th stop, yes. I found a sound I liked. Music happening along the way. Next time, I took that sound. I resampled it. No computer is on. Music is happening. Learning, enjoying. Music. Messing with it. Eventually, looped the end of that new sample. I stumbled upon a neat wave shape. Some messy thing. OB-like brashness. Rhythmically down below, it was awesome. Up in pitch range, I couldn't believe the boldness that was coming from this un-synthesis workstation. And, all thru a gtr amp, with low bass to not damage it. I tried out When Love Comes Walking In. Then, with the XF digital filters, etc. I turned it into a nice string thing. But with haunting character. Yes, digital. But not bad. And great music kept happening.

 

And Phil was one of the key folks that got me there.

 

[DanL]

I had an S90ES that I bought new (when did that come out?) and an S70XS and programmed exactly ZERO arps. It's just not something I use, and I bet a lot of players are the same. How many user arps I can store isn't even on my radar.

 

[iluvchiclets]

I think the "arrogance" is how Phil is perceived to have replied to the question, not Yamaha personally. (If that has not been mentioned above.)

 

(Personally, I often cringed when Phil replied to one of my questions on Motifator. He had a style that felt like he was be-littling your question for asking it. At least that's how I felt!)

 

[ElmerJFudd]

Sure, and besides. Yamaha is a behemoth of a company based in Japan. The US music production department is but a sliver of a piece of the pie. In my experience they have to occasionally put out fires and positive spin on whatever choices/policies Japan decides on. But in general they try and do a good job and make everyone happy. A tough spot to be in.

[EscapeRocks]

I love Bad Mister's replies. Until you get to know his style, he can come off as belittling. I just shrug it off, as I have met him once in person, and as some others of said, a really nice guy.

 

Besides, he's usually right, and he has helped me quite a bit when I first entered the world of Yamaha Motif/MOX.