MathOfInsects Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I'm not going to lie to you: I love it. She's obviously the inferior improviser. But some of his best ideas there, and some of the best moments together (the periodic entrainment at 1:15, for example--and basically everything that follows) came from stuff she did. The cadence was fantastic. I know, I know. But I can't help it. I like it. Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
area51recording Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I think the only thing it leaves me with is a sad bitterness.....I've spent my life as a musician (sax, flute, keys, vocals) doing everything in my power to NOT sound like this....you know, good sound, in tune, cogent ideas, etc. etc......pretty obvious after hearing all this crap that it was a TOTAL waste of time. I wonder if the local Wally World is hiring greeters..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Lots of people see it that way, to be sure. The best I can offer is the reassurance that most improvising musicians (free improvising I mean, not jazzers) are masters of the "traditional" ways of playing. They're just people who (therefore) look for ways to extend their instrument's (and their own) potential. An of analogy I can offer: feedback was a "mistake," until guitarists found a way to control that "mistake" and turn it into an expressive device. (Same with distortion, actually.) Rather than signal a player as unskilled, good use of controlled feedback has come to represent great skill. When you're using it, you're controlling not only the "traditional" elements of your instrument, but extended aspects as well. Improvisers view their field the same way. But of course, it's not for everyone, and even those who play this kind of music know that. (It's part of the appeal, frankly.) Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brettymike Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 How's about THIS for a chunk of craptastic otherworldly self indulgence? Seriously.....for real? This is such mad silly JUNK! , but it made me laugh ... now I know where the ozzy band "Mental as Anything" found their name. Anyone who pays money to see this rubbish needs this!! > http://lowres.cartoonstock.com/medical-shrink-psychiatrist-psychiatry-therapists-mental_health-jdin1383_low.jpg (she must have been very noisy in the cot with J.L ) Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Verelst Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 She's not who she was with, but hatred about what she chooses to communicate comes from a source unknown to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brettymike Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 There's no hate for her from me AT ALL. So I don't know what the hell you are talking about master riddler. Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
area51recording Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Yeah, as I said earlier, there's no hatred toward her PERSONALLY from me at all..... I just think what she does sucks. Big time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieP_MechE Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Here's an avant garde performance that some may find more palatable (though I'm probably getting my own hopes up): [video:youtube]EstPgi4eMe4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brettymike Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 ^^^That's O.K. - No good for nothing , weird ,pointless, cat on a hot tin roof stuff here. I can listen to that Bose Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJUSCULE Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Thank you for those recent posts, MathOfInsects. We seem to agree on a lot of things. This is getting a little touchy (dB, feel free to edit/delete), but it's still a good conversation to have. The point is, even in this conversation, the majority of us are white men. Even if we're not racist or mysogynistic, we need to step back and look into what kinds of internalized systems of oppression we have. Have you ever caught yourself thinking less of a woman musician? Or, for that matter, been scared of someone of a particular complexion/appearance while walking past them on the street? I know I have, and I try to fight it every time. This is barely even the tip of the iceberg, but this may help. Also, this. I thought John Zorn was great in that clip. I also agree that Yoko is a little more limited in her improvisation. You know how it goes... A rock musician plays three chords for thousands of people, a jazz musician plays thousands of chords for three people and a free musician plays no chords for no people. No one does this stuff expecting people to like it. Look at the comments on the video. (Again, humanity is just terrible, particularly on the internet.) Eric Website Gear page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
area51recording Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 "White male" or no, if my opinion is about racism or a gender issue, why do I dig Hiromi? Because I see someone who has actually achieved a level of technical, musical, and artistic ACCOMPLISHMENT that I deeply admire, rather than walk up to a mic and spout a bunch of barefoot magical poser BS, regardless of race or gender... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJUSCULE Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Oh yeah, I forgot to add that it's totally still cool to dislike her on an artistic level. YMMV, as had already been discussed in the thread. As long as we can acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, her criticism is as skewed as her fame. She probably wouldn't and shouldn't be as famous as she is, but she is, and she's faced a whole lot more vitriol than any one of us could ever imagine. We're a pretty respectful bunch as far as that goes. Just take a look at some YouTube comments. People say terrible things behind the veil of a screen. P.S. Putting white male in quotation marks is interesting. I mean, you are or you aren't... Eric Website Gear page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
area51recording Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Don't read more into it than is there....I'm merely setting it apart from the rest of my commentary, as a demographic distinction. Yoko is IMO in the same league as Paris Hilton and the Kardashians, ie. Famous for being famous. She is the sonic equivalent of a lot of modern art. With a lot of that stuff, it honestly looks like a 4 year old could produce something of the same magnitude, and the public (some of them) stand there in awe of the artist's singular bold statement and courageous vision. Sometimes I think we need that kid in the Emperor's New Clothes story to stand up and say, "What are you guys applauding for? All she's doing is shrieking and yodeling". I think it becomes an intellectual exercise in which if the RIGHT people give it the seal of approval, no one wants to be the un-hip guy in the room that says its a bunch of random crap. And yes, I am..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJUSCULE Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Eric Website Gear page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brettymike Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 This all sort of reminds me of an excellent sculpture show I went to recently. The quality and effort and fabrication standards of the best and most attractive pieces was incredible. Yet , the pile of poo B.S piece that the "important panel of judges" awarded first prize to was ridiculous , sickening , and a kick in the guts for the skilled builders who spent 100's of hours working within accurate tolerances on theirs. And no , we don't know what color skin or race they were , and if they were frightening to look at - and that's all irrelevant to the above thread. Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueAndGreen Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Sometimes "avant garde" is just bad. Discordant/dissonant elements make for a great break, but when entire compositions are grating, I generally want it to stop ASAP. Artis7, S90ES, X50, SSV3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill H. Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 We've been exposed to her music for close to 50 years now. 50 years is time enough to separate the wheat from the chaff. Musically she has not withstood the test of time, except as an asterisk to John Lennon. Mentioning her in the same sentence as John Cage is doing John Cage a tremendous disservice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brettymike Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 ^^^ Chaff is left from decades ago , just have a look at all the "thumbs down" and peed off people on youtube. Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Ono is a fraud. Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 700 of Harry’s piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and jazz piano tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threadslayer Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 We've been exposed to her music for close to 50 years now. 50 years is time enough to separate the wheat from the chaff. Musically she has not withstood the test of time, except as an asterisk to John Lennon. Mentioning her in the same sentence as John Cage is doing John Cage a tremendous disservice. Well put. Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Still...there's something about Yoko's chaff that, shall we say, chafes in a way that the many, many others who "wouldn't have been anything without the Beatles" don't. George Martin was a small-time producer in EMI's least profitable division. He made classical and novelty records. He might have retired moderately wealthy but unknown without the Beatles. Richard Lester, who directed Hard Day's Night, had never directed a feature film before. Maybe he'd have found his way there, maybe not. But when he got there, it was because of the Beatles. Brian Epstein had no clue what it meant to manage a band. He just found these guys exciting (and he harbored some attraction to Lennon). He was a fanboy at best, he just happened to be a rich one. He'd also have died wealthy and unknown without them. Geoff Emerick was a junior engineer, just 20 years old, when he got the job of recording EMI's most popular rock group. Would he have become successful without them? Maybe, who knows. But the list of "famous recording engineers" is a fairly short one, and it's no safe bet that he'd have landed on it. The Beatles were surrounded by "lucky amateurs" who made their careers on the backs of this group. If anything, Yoko was more established as an artist (fine art) than most of the people in the Beatles' inner circle. Some of them were literally just guys who used to drive the Beatles' equipment around back in Liverpool, because they owned a car. Are they "asterisks" to the core group? Of course, and damned lucky for it. So why don't we hold it against them the way we hold it against Yoko? Just because we don't like her music? There are lots of people whose music we don't like. There is clearly (to me) something else at play. Just look at the responses in this thread. As implied by the 50-years-of-chaff post, she has never been musically relevant, at any point in her career. Most of us couldn't name a song title of hers. We just know she screamed a lot at some point. And yet...look how many people still seem outraged about her, even today. SOMETHING is behind it, beyond the "just famous because of the Beatles thing." It's fascinating to watch. I wonder what people's thoughts are about it. (As an aside, no one is saying she's an equal to Cage. The reason she gets mentioned "in the same sentence" is that she worked for and with him. It's just a data point, it's not a value judgment. Like her or not, it's a thing that happened...and had already happened by the time she met John.) Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Beaumont Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 You would be wrong. Tired of all the Yoko hate, which is borderline misogynist and racist. However, I mostly posted to echo/underscore the sentiment that some reactions to her are clearly race- and gender-based. Her white male colleagues, working in the same realm, have generally avoided the same vitriol. Some shrugs, yes. Mocking? Rarely. So its cool now to state everyone who disagrees with you is a racist or sexist? If your your talking youtube, only lowest of humans post that crap and its the nature of the internet. Yes, males and white ones to get trashed on the internet. But to come on to a site of musicians many who have worked years developing their art and declare that many musicians are just racist or sexist because they don't like her "art" is contemptible. Her narcissism greatly contributes to the disdain people have. Sometimes you have to say to yourself "Maybe I'm part of the problem" So in short: [video:youtube] Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12 Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJUSCULE Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Nooooooo come on guys. No one ever said everyone who dislikes Yoko is racist or sexist. What it is is that the society we live in is constructed in such a way that racism and sexim are built into the system. As such, people may or may not be disproportionately criticizing Ono's art and inappropriately attacking her person due to ingrained racist and sexist tendencies. The idea isn't to demonize anyone or discredit critical thought and taste. The idea is to question yourself and those around you to ensure that your critical thought and taste aren't tainted by years of psychological conditioning. It's about having a conversation and opening your mind! Course, maybe someone thinks they don't have any ingrained tendencies and systems of oppression. But that would be their prerogative. I'm well aware of what I've been taught to think. I was raised in the "Racism is bad, colours don't exist, don't dare talk about anything sensitive" 90's and 00's. I'm trying to break out of that. Eric Website Gear page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Verelst Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Maybe John liked her, and maybe the people around the Beatles had properties that were considered pleasant or advantageous in other dimensions then pop stardom. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Still...there's something about Yoko's chaff that, shall we say, chafes in a way that the many, many others who "wouldn't have been anything without the Beatles" don't. The Beatles? Are you talking about those kids from Liverpool? "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
area51recording Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Know what? This is a very silly discussion. I'm sure that Yoko is a wonderful person. If you want to listen to the (IMO) horrific, train wreck crap that spills out of her face hole when she "sings" be my guest. You can have my ticket. For me that's really all there is to it, no more, no less.....buh bye now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinny Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I bet she'd sound much better through a Vent. Stuff and things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Yoko is a fraud. Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 700 of Harry’s piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and jazz piano tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Zeger Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Be My Yoko Ono [video:youtube]k5YIJ1pZEBc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Heslop Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I'm definitely not a fan of her "music" but the "Yoko broke up the Beatles" thing is just so incredibly misguided. I guess it hurts to lose the greatest band of all time and people want to blame someone for it. At any rate John is at least as much to blame as Yoko for her constant presence with him near the end of the Beatles. As far as criticism of her music and art, I think the problem is that at best it was designed for a small fringe demographic, but marrying a Beatle pretty much ensured exposure to a massive demographic that wasn't going to be receptive to such things. It couldn't possibly result in anything except widespread derision. Stage: Korg Krome 88. Home: Korg Kross 61, Yamaha reface CS, Korg SP250, Korg mono/poly Kawai ep 608, Korg m1, Yamaha KX-5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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