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OT: Yoko. Who Loves Ya Baby?


sparetime

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You would be wrong.

 

Tired of all the Yoko hate, which is borderline misogynist and racist.

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"My beautiful unworldly voice."

and

" the music coming from other planets"

I would say delusional at least. The woman cannot carry a tune in a bucket!!! But there is no discounting of ones taste!!!!

Jimmy

 

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho

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Perceived arrogance never helps.

 

That being said, I gained a whole lot of respect for her once I attended a retrospective of her art. To see her as an individual and as an artist unto herself is quite the change in perspective. (re: Mark's comment on mysoginy) Check her out beyond being John's wife/the Beatles' kryptonite. She's cool, even her music isn't for your tastes.

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You would be wrong.

 

Tired of all the Yoko hate, which is borderline misogynist and racist.

 

That being said, I gained a whole lot of respect for her once I attended a retrospective of her art. To see her as an individual and as an artist unto herself is quite the change in perspective. (re: Mark's comment on mysoginy) Check her out beyond being John's wife/the Beatles' kryptonite. She's cool, even her music isn't for your tastes.

 

I'm glad to see people saying this. Have you ever seen the snide Al Capp interview with Lennon and Ono? It's painful theater.

 

Ono was/is a legitimate member of the artistic avant-garde in her own right. She had a career (which partially involved working with John Cage) before she and Lennon ever crossed paths. She's been disingenuous in crafting/burnishing the public perception of their relationship, but also let's face it, how many people don't reexamine/recast their stories after someone they are close to dies young and unexpectedly.

 

The Beatles had an affinity for the avant-garde. McCartney went to AMM performances, Harrison stretched the standard rock/pop instrumental palette, Lennon and McCartney both made extensive tape-pieces long before anyone in the mainstream even knew the term. (Most still don't!) Yoko did not swoop in and girlfriend the band out of existence. Lennon saw her as firmly within the direction the band would be going. She was just the most visible entry in the drawn-out splintering that began when Epstein died.

 

If anything, I think it's worth saying that she probably kept Lennon from killing himself back then. He was a mentally unstable junky, and the group he'd started was almost completely out of his hands by the time he and Yoko started up.

 

Enough from me. Here's Capp (and Lennon and Ono at their hippie-weirdest). Start at 4:00 for Capp's diss of Ono, and go on from there for car-crash fascination.

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

 

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
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Wow. Interesting snapshot of the time. I remember the "Little Joanie Phony" cartoon campaign, which I thought was funny at the time, but I never knew what a stuffed shirt Al Capp was in person.

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

-Mark Twain

 

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I never believed she was responsible for the Beatles breaking up.

I just never cared for her as an "artist", and her over the top narcissism only confirms my beliefs.

 

From the article:

They demand the musical standard of a classic musician and attack me for the rhythm or some notes which are not precisely in tune.I am not concerned with what my voice is doing.

 

The emphases is mine. I can play random notes on piano and call it "art" but that doesn't necessarily make it so. A screeching cat has more meaning, at least it conveys a message. The cat is mad or hurt.

 

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No question, she's not for everyone.

 

As a fan of--and sometime participant in--of the avant-garde, I only want to say: the opposite of familiar and customary is not always "random." There is often great calculation in the casting off of custom, and once your ears get used to the challenging sounds, there is also great beauty there too. (For some--obviously not for all. If it were for for all, it would not be avant-garde, it would be mainstream.)

 

I am not a fan of Yoko's art(s), but I have come to greatly admire her as an artist. She's a complicated standard-bearer for sure. But I think she's also been ahead of some important trends over the decades...including the anti-AutotuneTM sentiment of the quote you referenced.

 

However, I mostly posted to echo/underscore the sentiment that some reactions to her are clearly race- and gender-based. Her white male colleagues, working in the same realm, have generally avoided the same vitriol. Some shrugs, yes. Mocking? Rarely.

 

OK, back to procrastinating. It's a tough job, but someone's got to avoid it.

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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Nah.....if she were a 30 something white Anglo-Saxon dude I would still think she sucks.....it ain't gender or race. Suck is suck. Hiding behind the veil of being an uncompromising artiste don't make it any more tolerable on my ears. Maybe she's so far ahead of her time we just haven't caught up with her yet. Maybe she's a unique visionary with an almost mystical ability to plumb the very depths of the human psyche. To me it just sounds like she's hitting a baby with a cat, but I'll be the first to admit I could be totally wrong......
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Wow. Old wounds still tender. I don't have any hate. Just never understood or appreciated avant-garde art and certainly not hers. John's fame gave her a platform (skyscraper?) I don't think her "art" deserved. But at 80 she's still at it. I do admire her longevity through all the sh*t she's had to endure; I probably wouldn't have lasted. The article just amused me that after all those years and all that money she never mastered the art of oral and written communication.

 

Meant this to amuse, not incite.

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y. ono = fraud

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Nah.....if she were a 30 something white Anglo-Saxon dude I would still think she sucks.....it ain't gender or race. Suck is suck. Hiding behind the veil of being an uncompromising artiste don't make it any more tolerable on my ears. Maybe she's so far ahead of her time we just haven't caught up with her yet. Maybe she's a unique visionary with an almost mystical ability to plumb the very depths of the human psyche. To me it just sounds like she's hitting a baby with a cat, but I'll be the first to admit I could be totally wrong......

 

 

Or Maybe she is an alien from another planet!!!

Jimmy

 

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho

NEW BAND CHECK THEM OUT

www.steveowensandsummertime.com

www.jimmyweaver.com

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Wow. Old wounds still tender. I don't have any hate. Just never understood or appreciated avant-garde art and certainly not hers. John's fame gave her a platform (skyscraper?) I don't think her "art" deserved. But at 80 she's still at it. I do admire her longevity through all the sh*t she's had to endure; I probably wouldn't have lasted. The article just amused me that after all those years and all that money she never mastered the art of oral and written communication.

 

Meant this to amuse, not incite.

 

No wounds man, I'm feelin' no pain about it....I just know what I like, and she ain't it.....

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I never hated her either. I just think her singing is Gawdawful.

I'd like to think I could hold that opinion without having to listen to a lecture about it from a Starbucks Barista. At least not until I've had my coffee. Seriously though, I've listened to people criticize Yoko for decades now and I never caught a whiff of racism or misogyny. I think that's kind of a stretch.

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

-Mark Twain

 

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Hey, Wastrel--

 

I'm not sure if I'm the barista (baristo?) in question, but I was careful to say that some of the response to her seemed to be racism or misogynism, at least in part. That doesn't mean that everyone who hated her, was a racist misogynist. But considering the era and climate in which she first rose to prominence, it would be nearly unthinkable that anti-Asian sentiment and the prevailing views of women didn't play a part in people's response to her. The banshee-like singing didn't help, of course. But it does seem to have carried a bit more with it than just, "I don't like the way she sings," least in my opinion. (Not that my opinion is worth a Starbucks coffee. Maybe a banana or an orange from there at best).

 

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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She was talent free then. She's talent free now. Nothing to do with misogyny or racism. As far as her role in the avant garde is concerned, she was never anything than on the coat tails of the real innovators, eg Cathy Berbarian. Her biggest achievement was being married to Lennon, and let's be brutally honest, that last collection of very average love songs he came up with would never have been half as successful had tragedy not struck.

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She was talent free then. She's talent free now. Nothing to do with misogyny or racism. As far as her role in the avant garde is concerned, she was never anything than on the coat tails of the real innovators, eg Cathy Berbarian. Her biggest achievement was being married to Lennon, and let's be brutally honest, that last collection of very average love songs he came up with would never have been half as successful had tragedy not struck.

 

I totally agree.

Sh*t , I hope Bill Shatner doesn't see himself being compared to her , he's Great to listen to!.

 

Brett

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My dislike of her has nothing to do with her connection to John and Beatles. It's not misogyny or racism.

 

I simply don't like her so called music. I think she sucks, in my subjective opinion.

David

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My dislike of her has nothing to do with her connection to John and Beatles. It's not misogyny or racism.

 

I simply don't like her so called music. I think she sucks, in my subjective opinion.

 

Of course, most people do. I do too, largely. Double Fantasy was "mediocre Lennon song...awful Ono song...mediocre Lennon song...painful Ono song."

 

BUT...

 

I still sometimes remind people that she was, in fact, a fairly firmly established avant-garde fine-artist well before she met Lennon. She was a "member" of Fluxus--which was the loose collection of avant-gardists practicing in music and fine art in the 60s (primarily), partially by virtue of her association with John Cage, but also because of the work she was doing in her own right (fine art, not music).

 

(Stockhausen was a "member" too, and is, for better or worse, the direct progenitor of/inspiration for the Beatles' "Revolution #9".)

 

Would we be talking about her if she'd never married Lennon? Hard to say, of course. We still talk about the other Fluxus members, so perhaps as a fine artist with a quirky performance-art side. (She'll be the subject of a retrospective exhibit at MoMA in a couple of months, as exactly that. Lots of famous people paint; not a lot get MoMA shows.)

 

As for whether anti- or free-improvised-music sounds good to most people, it clearly doesn't...though that's also its intentional aesthetic in many cases. For me (admittedly in the minority), I do find moments of real beauty in the chaos. But I also find lots of it pretentious and self-indulgent, like any form.

 

Regarding racism and sexism...I'll just leave it as, we white males are probably not the best arbiter of this even when it is a factor, and it's a discussion that makes most people quite uncomfortable under the best of circumstances...which was why I wanted to +1 those who "went there"--regardless of reception--in the early responses to this thread. It doesn't mean that any single person who hates her, is racist and misogynistic.

 

I'm greatly enjoying this board, by the way. (OT, but I figured I'd include in the wall of text I was typing, like Congress does with riders on bills.)

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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