Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[16251]

I just got a call from my Sweetwater rep about a returned unit that arrived today. (AnotherScott's, I'm guessing) They offered it to me and I jumped on it. It'll be here in 2 days. I got a nice discount on it as well... full warranty, etc. so no worries there.

I just called SW and gave them a big pile of sh*t. I called last Saturday and asked about that returned unit and they told me I was next in line so, I can't understand why they told me something different than sending you an email. I happy for you but am pissed at SW!

 

#annoyedbeyondwords

[DanL]

whoops! sorry about that... do you have a sales guy you deal with regularly?

[theGman]

They probably meant you are next in line for the next return unit. They already knew Scott's was there, or in shipment.

[16251]

whoops! sorry about that... do you have a sales guy you deal with regularly?

It's fine, I'm happy for you. I don't buy much so I don't have a "regular" sales guy. I'm in discussion with my sales rep after I emailed him. A place like SW reputation must have a protocol and I know from the times I talked with them that I've been first on their list. I ordered SS on 9/30/14. IMO, I should of been given first refusal. I'm not sour grapes except like I said in earlier post, I was told a different story on 12/6 when I called. Then to see your post, how else should I react.

 

This forum and this thread, IMO has been a blessing and a curse for SW, Aspen and GAS. I think it's cool you're getting it quickly. I'm sure you have more gigs than me, it's all good.

[AndyW]

Maybe after the 25th Santa can spare some elves for Aspen.

[SK]

My experience with SW is, once you've ordered your first purchase you have a sales guy assigned to you - whether you know it or not. If you ever received an email from SW, there's a good chance your sales person's name (from your first purchase) is on it. I'd find out who you talked to at SW and ask him about this - chances are they'll expedite the situation.

[SpPiano]

Yeah, I understand the delay from Aspen's point of view, and have really appreciated getting the updates from him. I can't imagine how frustrating it must've been to have had the shipment of speakers fall into the water. I am however, annoyed at sweetwater. My rep told me to expect shipment mid November when I ordered in late October and I haven't received a phone call or email since. I called them just now and they told me that it would be the third week of January. This is a really busy time of year for me, and I would've loved to have had a new amp in tow. I had to bring my amp in for repairs about a week ago and was at the mercy of using whatever monitors were on stage for the past week. If I'd had the SS when I was told it'd be delivered, it would've been a much more pleasant situation. I'm still excited to be getting mine in January, but I would've loved it as a Christmas present at least.

[theGman]

I am a new order (today), at the end of the long line. I was told today probably be in Feb. for me. Maybe Version 4 will be out by then! ha ha ha in stereo

 

Bottom line is that the SW people probably know less about the schedule than we do, from being privvy to Aspen's comments.

 

This shouldn't seem that unusual, since they have 1000s of products to babysit. Just sayin'.

 

FWIW, I measured by K10 case and it looks like it should fit in there with 2 inches on top, tight on one side and an extra inch or so on the other. I believe it is 11x11x18" tall. Since we all have months, looks like a good time to search for the best case.

[Raymb1]

http://www.guitarcenter.com/SKB-Small-Rolling-Powered-Mixer-Soft-Case-107221335-i1469153.gc

 

I bought this case for the SS. Ray

[B. J. Love]

That's the one I bought, Ray. Very pleased with the case - esp. for under 80 bucks. Now if I just had something to put in it...

[Raymb1]

LOL! I've had my case for a month now and won't get the SS 'til the middle of Jan!! Ray

[theGman]

Will it fit in there? I thought the amp is 11 x 11 x 18. One case msmt is 10 3/4. Just wondering.

 

[B. J. Love]

Me too, Ray, me too. No worries. The interior dimensions are slightly larger than published. I measured, but don't remember exactly. I do remember thinking that if the SS published dimensions are correct, it's going to be a nice snug fit.

[DanL]

It's fine, I'm happy for you. I don't buy much so I don't have a "regular" sales guy. I'm in discussion with my sales rep after I emailed him. A place like SW reputation must have a protocol and I know from the times I talked with them that I've been first on their list. I ordered SS on 9/30/14. IMO, I should of been given first refusal. I'm not sour grapes except like I said in earlier post, I was told a different story on 12/6 when I called. Then to see your post, how else should I react.

 

This forum and this thread, IMO has been a blessing and a curse for SW, Aspen and GAS. I think it's cool you're getting it quickly. I'm sure you have more gigs than me, it's all good.

 

Yeah, I can relate to how you feel, I'd feel the same way if I were in your shoes. I agree you should have had 1st right of refusal. Sorry it worked out this way.

 

[Jazzmammal]

Damn, I'd be pissed too. Happy for Dan, we're all friends here but still if you were supposed to be next they should have called you. Maybe it's not the only return they have and they have another one for you.

 

Bob

[Aspen]

One of the greatest ever - Nikola Tesla , wanted to give everyone free (or near free) energy , a brilliant person who was destroyed for dare trying, by you know who.

 

Brett

Yes, sad story for old Saint Nick, who gave us so many gifts. We owe him so much and he gets too little recognition. There would be no Hammond tone generator wheels without Tesla!

 

Of course JP Morgan was the devil behind the deed, although Thomas Edison got the credit because he was on the other side of the controversy with his idea to distribute all power to the masses in DC (Tesla's system was AC...thank God he won out!). While both Edison and JP Morgan were ruthless competitors, it was our 1st American "Bankster" JP Morgan who ousted Tesla and Edison from their own companies in a matter of months...forming General Electric (GE) with Teslas's and Edison's inventions and patents, and thereafter controlling THE "power" (electricity) for decades.

 

Here's a great site on this, worth a read over the holidays:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Site:LRP:The_Conspiracy_To_Destroy/Obfuscate_Nikola_Tesla

 

But unlike Tesla, I do not believe in "free lunches", hard work and good ideas NEED to be rewarded. And as a student of history I know of too many brilliant, yet dead, pioneers who forgot to make a profit, pay the bills, and beware of the Banksters. So, I try and strike a happy medium.

 

I am building CPS w/o taking loans or partners, albeit slower than I'd like. But I am thankful to be just (barely) paying the bills, doing what I love doing, and bringing something new to the party; a stereo transmission for all of our stereo engines!

[DanL]

16251's SS arrived at my house yesterday afternoon. I set it up and plugged my FA08 directly in. It definitely makes the piano sound better- the only thing I didn't like about the FA08 is the piano sound in mono had this weird quality that I could not EQ out. So the SS resolved that issue. I had it set up on a desk to my left, about 4' away, and I could swear the sound was coming from in front of me from bouncing off the wall. Pretty cool! Samples for my Floyd band that are panned all over sounded stereo, but of course the hard L/R panning was not there. They did sound full and spacious though.

 

It seems like the HF volume knob does little, even with high endy sounds like strings, the change in tone is barely perceptible. I also had to crank the mid control way up to hear any difference, and it's more of a high end than a mid control. Overall the speaker sounds good. Playing the demo songs off the FA and tweaking the knobs of the speaker gives you a lot of options.

 

Tonight I will set up my full rig with the mixer and all the keys. I have a gig tomorrow night and plan on using the SS, but want to prestage it just to make sure all is well.

 

This thing is LOUD. I'm running it about halfway up and had to turn the FA down to about 1/3 volume. Low end does distort a little if it's cranked up and you turn up the bass on the keyboard. I wouldn't run it that way but wanted to hear what it'd put out.

 

I probably won't need a sub tomorrow, but in a couple weeks we're playing a good sized theater with a large, open stage, no walls to reflect sound off of, etc. I might use my K10 as a supplement at that gig. I'll give some more thoughts after my gig tomorrow night, and a rehearsal where I'm only using Hammond on Sunday.

[Delaware Dave]

16251's SS arrived at my house yesterday...

Salt in the wound ..... Love it.

 

How does it compare to the K10 from a:

 

Loudness perspective

Overall tone perspective

bass response perspective

[16251]

16251's SS arrived at my house yesterday...

Salt in the wound ..... Love it.

 

How does it compare to the K10 from a:

 

Loudness perspective

Overall tone perspective

bass response perspective

Good one DanL! I can take it

 

SW said they will take my pain go away. I'll wait and see when it ships

[DanL]

16251's SS arrived at my house yesterday...

Salt in the wound ..... Love it.

 

How does it compare to the K10 from a:

 

Loudness perspective

Overall tone perspective

bass response perspective

 

Not really trying to sprinkle salt in the wound, just bringing some levity to the situation!

 

In my basement, here's what I hear so far, but note that I have not A/B'd them together:

 

Loudness perspective- where I'd run the K10 around halfway in a small room and more like 3/4 or more in a bigger room, I'm running the SS around 1/3. I'm sure at the gig I'll have to push it a little more but generally, it's a loud little box.

 

Overall tone perspective= more midrange than the K10, but enough adjustment to make it sound good. I did work with my FA08 main piano tone and tweaked a lot of parameters- but to be honest, I never did this with the K10, and it was when I used the K10 I had a lack of tone that I get with my in ears. I'll know more tomorrow after my gig, but based on experience, it's going to cut well. I run thru the PA and that'll cover my low end.

 

bass response perspective- Again, without doing an A/B compare, it seems like the K10, set on flat response, is better. For bigger setups, I'm thinking I can run the K10 as a vocal/gimme a little guitar type of monitor on one of it's inputs, and run the sub out of the SS to the other input, and have a good balance between giving some added low end and a band monitor mix from our board. It'll take a few gigs to work it all out.

[Aspen]

Hi all, just a quick update on the SS v.3 new run; "Elvis has left the building!"

 

Now they are on a boat in route to LA harbor, so we are "on target" for delivery to doorsteps in mid January. (Now pray for no dock worker strikes : > )

 

Thanks to all concerned for your patience, I am grateful and humbled that so many of you kept your orders in place. This new run hit several parts delays that threw us a month off schedule, but that was a substantial improvement over the first run that was 4 months late due to a dozen road blocks.

 

FYI, the productions should now be smoother as we ramp up, as we have been taking steps to increase supply for 2015. So while this shipment is almost sold out (or so I am told), the following shipment due mid February will actually put some stocks on our shelves.

 

I hope all of you early adopters who have been graciously vocal in your approval of our little CPS box, and those of you who have been so patiently faithful waiting for your delivery, will be smiling about this time next month.

 

One thing I think most of you who have received your SS have noticed; it's really different and kinda hard to describe. You just have hear it. And, it grows on you.

 

Try as we did, the M/S stereo live room recording/videos really don't do it justice. Which is why most of you have been pleasantly surprised, rather than being disappointed, when you finally get to hear it and play thru it.

 

Nobody here is as relieved as I am to report that we are finally "on the water" now, and I promise to keep you all posted as events unfold.

[B. J. Love]

Thanks for the update, Aspen.

[mak1457]

Can hardly wait. Thanks!

[Raymb1]

Thanks Aspen. This waiting is the hard part. With so many good reviews, I can't wait. Can you tell us how many units have been sent out already? Ray

[Aspen]

How does it compare to the K10 from a:

 

Loudness perspective

Overall tone perspective

bass response perspective

 

"In my basement, here's what I hear so far, but note that I have not A/B'd them together:

 

Loudness perspective- where I'd run the K10 around halfway in a small room and more like 3/4 or more in a bigger room, I'm running the SS around 1/3. I'm sure at the gig I'll have to push it a little more but generally, it's a loud little box."

 

Good comments, and I agree the SS v.3 will be be louder at lower "dial numbers" as compared to a typical powered PA speaker.

 

That's because the typical powered PA speaker is designed to be used with a mixer, which has a significantly more powerful output signal than any KB. So, when plugging a KB directly into a powered PA speaker you will usually have to set the volume of the speaker much higher than if you had a mixer "in the mix". The down side is that at these higher gain settings you will hear more self noise from the speaker. I think most would agree that their KBs sound better thru a powered PA speaker when using a mixer, and are more quite as well. A mixer also allows you to better balance the levels and EQ differences b/w you KBs.

 

When designing the input stage of my SS v.3, I tried to strike a compromise on "input sensitivity"; half way b/w a typical instrument input and a power amp input sensitivity. In other words, sensitive enough so even the lowest output KBs could drive it to full power, and yet not too sensitive so that a more powerful mixer could overdrive it into front end distortion.

 

I think we found the "sweet spot", because it can be easily used either way; with a mixer or a typical KB direct.

 

That said, it is understandable that DanL would find the SPL he seeks at a lower number on our "level" control, as compared to a PA speaker designed to see a higher level from a mixer.

 

Regarding bass response comparisons; In comparison, DanL earlier awareness of low end distortion when he pushed it hard could possibly be input signal overload as we do have a more sensitive input sensitivity (by design). But also remember, the small format design of the SS has just a 100 watt Class D amp pushing an 8" woofer, and could never deliver as much bass response as a more expensive mono 1,000 watt powered PA amp pushing a 10" PA speaker in a larger box. But, when a small powered sub is added for that under 125Hz information, I'd say we get "closer" for the left handed folks. (but then watch out for Bass player remorse)

 

Rule of thumb signal chain processing tip for all these with, or without, mixer scenarios..."keep the front end large and the rear end low". That maximizes your signal to noise ratios and prevents input stage distortions.

 

So, when using a KB direct into the SS; run the KB output level 3/4+ up and keep the SS Level control lower (rather than the reverse). Saving that last 1/4 level on your KB for when the guitar player starts acting up.

 

And, when using a mixer; again with your KB(s) levels near the top, then each input channel gain trims and levels relatively high, the master well up, and the SS input set to the volume you require (this will usually be achieved under 50% on the SS master Level).

 

Another trick I use for setting the SS v.3 tri-amp "FR response curve balance"; turn the width control (side speaker) OFF.

 

So listening to this MF and HF balance in "mono" (L+R) seems to give me a better sonic perspective. FYI, I usually suggest to start with each the MF and HF full "OFF", then bring the MF up "to taste", followed by the HF. So you are "building FR the curve", so to speak. I often use a well recorded song for this exercise (specifically Babylon Sisters), and stand well away (10-20') and well off center from the SS because CPS speakers kinda "bloom" the farther away you stand. (I also use this distance perspective for setting the Width levels too)

 

Then after I set the tri-amp levels, I set the Width level (to taste). In that way I am not judging the frequency response of the total system so much as the amount of stereo dimension I want (usually 50%). The side speaker has a more colored sound (for several reasons, it's the wider "effect" tone), and so listening to it while balancing the tri-amp levels complicates the tuning process....at least for me.

 

Just my opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it.

[AnotherScott]

Samples for my Floyd band that are panned all over sounded stereo, but of course the hard L/R panning was not there. They did sound full and spacious though.

I think that's the key to understanding the SS... it doesn't give you stereo in the sense of hard positioning from left-to-right that you get with true stereo speaker positioning, but it gives you the sense of spaciousness that you usually need true stereo positioning to achieve, while also addressing the "sweet spot" problem. It seems perfect for the people who complain that their boards sound lifeless in mono, where what's missing isn't really pinpoint stereo localization, but rather merely the sense of space. (Which is probably also why it is so perfect for Leslie sim.)

 

I mentioned that I felt I got a similar result by using two conventional PA speakers in a somewhat unconventional arrangement... but that solution still requires a second box and is not so compact, and I don't think you could buy a pair of powered PA speakers for the SpaceStation's $599 price that would sound as good as the Spacestation does. (I'll also reiterate that I did not extensively compare the two setups, and don't know if the 2-speaker approach works over as large a listening area as the SS does.)

 

It seems like the HF volume knob does little, even with high endy sounds like strings, the change in tone is barely perceptible. I also had to crank the mid control way up to hear any difference, and it's more of a high end than a mid control.

I found the same thing. The function of the HF knob is barely perceptible, and the MF knob seems to sound like what you'd typically expect from a "treble" control.

[AnotherScott]

Wow, great advice there, Aspen. I think it's worth more than we're paying to get setup advice from the guy who designed it. ;-) I was going to say you should really include all that in the manual, but hey, no one reads the manuals anyway. I admit I never even opened mine. ;-) It's very interesting to see that you suggest optimizing the EQ *before* adding width, whereas I had done the opposite.

 

I think I understand the MF/HF better now. I had been thinking of them as typical EQ controls, but it sounds like they're not. Do I understand correctly that, rather than EQ controls in the traditional sense, these are actually volume controls feeding the mid and HF drivers? And so also, "straight up" (which I used as a starting point) is not "neutral" as it is on, say, a mixer, but rather a kind of arbitrary point that has no particular relevance to a roughly "flat" (input = output) starting point?

 

Just for academic purposes, I hope to have the opportunity to play with one again some time, keeping your setup advice in mind.

[Aspen]

It seems perfect for the people who complain that their boards sound lifeless in mono, where what's missing isn't really pinpoint stereo localization, but rather merely the sense of space. (Which is probably also why it is so perfect for Leslie sim.)

 

Excellent observation Scott, which is why I named it the "Spacestation"!

 

It seems like the HF volume knob does little, even with high endy sounds like strings, the change in tone is barely perceptible. I also had to crank the mid control way up to hear any difference, and it's more of a high end than a mid control.

 

Again, good observations, For sure HF effect can more easily be heard on recorded music as compared to many KB Patches. There really is not much HF information on most KB patches (although some ethereal synth patches have lots of this).

 

That's why most PA speakers are 2 way, and do not spend the extra $ on a tweeter. These PA speakers rely on the horn to carry the "meat" of the bands top end (1K to 8K), but that said, I don't think anyone would use them in your living room for critical listening (most all HiFi speakers have tweeters for a reason).

 

As I wanted out v.3 to be able to work well in smaller venues where critical listening is important, and also to work well with any instruments, such as acoustic guitar, electric violins, and voice...so I wanted to give the v.3 an extended top end. Much like a good HiFi speaker, we run basically flat throughout our human audible listening range, even though many of our KB instrument patches like EP and Hammond/Leslie really won't benefit much from it.

 

But of course, you don't really work your HiFi tweeters much either when playing Jimmy Smith organ tracks.

 

Try playing a well recorded CD thru the SS v.3, I am sure you will hear, and welcome the HF level contributions.

[DanL]

Thanks for that setup advice Aspen. I really spent a lot of time with it last night and got things dialed in nicely. It inspired me to rework my main piano patch on the FA08, working with the modeling parameters, and I have a piano that really has a lot of body but will also (hopefully) cut thru the band tonight. My other keys sound fantastic, the pads and strings, leads with delays, even my horn patches have this width that I only got with my IEM's before.

 

I've been experimenting with placement, but for now I think I'm going to go with what I do with my K10, which is sit it to my left on top of my rack, where it'll be about 3' away from me and just below ear level. That's how I had it set up in the basement and you could really hear the spread of the sound well.

[DanL]

Here's a gig report. I played with my party/variety band last night at a restaurant. Keys/guitar/bass/drums and a female singer. No stage but there is a good sized area they have for the band to set up, probably 25' wide and 12' deep. My keys go stage right, near the front of the stage, at about a 45 degree angle to the band and audience. My rack is on a stand to my left, and I had the SS on there, aiming right at me. Unfortunately, this put the side firing speaker blowing right at the singer, and the drummer was also in firing range as well. And they complained about the volume...

 

To appease the drummer and singer, I turned down and then had problems hearing myself over the bass and drums. After the 1st set I moved the SS, sitting it on a Rubbermaid container we use to hold some lights. It was lower and I put it more behind me, and I was able to turn it up some. It worked much better for the drummer and singer this way, and I could hear the keys ok, but I had a hard time hearing my vocals where were also feeding into the SS from my mixer (I take a monitor mix from the PA, into it's own EQ and channel on the mixer).

 

Overall I didn't like the way the vocals sounded thru the SS. I had to do some drastic EQ work to get rid of feedback frequencies, which I never had to do with the K10, and still couldn't get it to a point where I could hear myself clearly. On the keyboard end, it sounded great. Lots of headroom, plenty of volume. The bass and guitar on the other side of the stage said they never heard me so well. A keyboard player friend in the audience said it sounded great. He was probably 15-20' away and not in the direct line of the speaker. My wife also commented about how well she could hear me, she was also about 20' away in a different part of the room.

 

Unfortunately, I think I'm going to have to bring the K10 along and run it as a dedicated vocal monitor. I don't see how I can get a clear vocal sound thru the SS and be able to hear it with how I have to place the speaker to keep from blowing out the drummer. A lot of gigs he and I are very close together and I can see me having to turn the width control way back to avoid problems. (I was running it about halfway last night)

 

I'm going to get the SS directly behind me where possible, and up a little higher than the Rubbermaid container height, maybe on a chopped down waitress stand I have.

 

Using it at a rehearsal today with just the Hammond, then Tuesday a rehearsal with the Floyd band in a big rehearsal hall. The aforementioned party band has a gig Thursday at a country club type place that has a huge stage, and then our smallest venue on Friday, so by the end of the week I'll have a good idea of what the SS sounds like in a variety of settings.