Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[Marillo]

UK user here, bought for £490 from a guy selling due to a project being cancelled, so got a good deal.

 

Using a Yamaha CP4 all the stereo patches sound great, but struggling a little with APs which sound 'boxy' right now (I have been playing through Hi-fi separates so probably spoiled!).

 

Does the addition of a sub help with this 'boxiness'? Actually to my ears it's not so much the lows but the mids that aren't quite sparkling for me.

 

I am managing my expectations due to the 8" and 6" speakers inside this little thing, but since I use piano a lot I'm keen to try and fix this.

[Doerfler]

honestly if you buy an expensive sub it won't help your "boxiness". I play a CP4 through my SS3 and I don't experience what you do. However my ears are beyond repair. I do use a sub but I have an Ashley crossover. The crossover makes the difference. A cheap sub with a cheap crossover is going to sound, well, you get the picture.

[16251]

Using a Yamaha CP4 all the stereo patches sound great, but struggling a little with APs which sound 'boxy' right now

I have CP4/ss and I had same issue. Either the speakers broke in, the placement of the SS or I just got used to it, but it blossomed after a while and is now very pleasing.

[drawback]

My experience with adding a bass amp (and before that, the "cheap" B1200D sub) has rounded out the tones enough that the CP4's very responsive EQ sliders can do the rest.

[Synthaholic]

Obviously, I'm not going to read this entire thread to see if it's been answered already, so:

 

Has anyone used their Spacestation outside? What does it do to the stereo imaging, and how does it sound? Is there enough volume for a small outside venue?

[Danny Linguini]

I use a small sub live with my CP4 and SS3, but I can get a nice AP sound out of them without the sub by just fiddling with the on-board eq. Start by dropping the mid range, then raising the other four to taste. It took a little tweaking, but when I got it dialed in it sounded like I had a concert grand in my dining room (that's just barely big enough to hold a real concert grand).

 

I think if I didn't use a drum machine live, I'd be perfectly happy with just the SS3 and no sub.

[drawback]

Obviously, I'm not going to read this entire thread to see if it's been answered already, so:

 

Has anyone used their Spacestation outside? What does it do to the stereo imaging, and how does it sound? Is there enough volume for a small outside venue?

 

I have. I position the SS horizontally (speaker down) and make sure the angle is such that the sound from the top window can bounce off a back wall or trapcase etc. The other thing you could do is position the amp vertically and use home-made "winged" baffles. I also either use a bass amp with it, or take the sub out to FOH and get a bit of it in the monitors depending on the situation/venue.

 

 

[Al Quinn]

UK user here, bought for £490 from a guy selling due to a project being cancelled, so got a good deal.

 

Using a Yamaha CP4 all the stereo patches sound great, but struggling a little with APs which sound 'boxy' right now (I have been playing through Hi-fi separates so probably spoiled!).

 

Does the addition of a sub help with this 'boxiness'? Actually to my ears it's not so much the lows but the mids that aren't quite sparkling for me.

 

I am managing my expectations due to the 8" and 6" speakers inside this little thing, but since I use piano a lot I'm keen to try and fix this.

 

I've struggled with the CP4/SS combination. In my experience it sounds better in more reflective environments. I recently used this combo in a rehearsal studio that had a lot of carpet and drapes and it didn't sound good at all. But when I used this combination in a restaurant that had mostly reflective surfaces it sounded very good.

[Raymb1]

In a non-reflective venue you would need to turn the width control higher. I use this stand: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GFWGTRAMP If the stage is a hard surface make sure that the side speaker is facing down to reflect off the stage floor.

Check out this video if you don't want to go through the whole thread: http://www.centerpointstereo.com/about.php

 

[Reezekeys]

"Boxy" is how my stereo AP samples sound when listening in mono. And mono is what's coming out of the SS's front speaker if I'm not mistaken. If I am mistaken then I will happily retract this. Of course it's not unreasonable to believe some stereo AP samples might collapse to mono better than others not mine though; "boxy" describes the sound perfectly.

[Doerfler]

My experience with adding a bass amp (and before that, the "cheap" B1200D sub) has rounded out the tones enough that the CP4's very responsive EQ sliders can do the rest.

 

glad that is working for you.

 

maybe I need to listen to this combination with out my sub to see if I experience "boxiness", I just always use it so maybe I had forgotten something I didn't already know

[Al Quinn]

In a non-reflective venue you would need to turn the width control higher. I use this stand: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GFWGTRAMP If the stage is a hard surface make sure that the side speaker is facing down to reflect off the stage floor.

Check out this video if you don't want to go through the whole thread: http://www.centerpointstereo.com/about.php

 

Yeah I have the same stand and am familiar with the width control and positioning of the SS. For piano only gigs I think I'll be using my RCF TT08A's from now on unless I know the room is a good match for the SS. Not complaining. The SS is so incredible for organ / Leslie simulation that I no longer bring my chopped Leslie 145 to gigs! I'm a happy camper.

[Bossbandbob]

Obviously, I'm not going to read this entire thread to see if it's been answered already, so:

 

Has anyone used their Spacestation outside? What does it do to the stereo imaging, and how does it sound? Is there enough volume for a small outside venue?

 

I used it for a huge outdoor venue this summer. The sound company's mixing console was quite a bit back from out in front of the stage with 30'speaker towers projecting into the park just behind them. The pro sound guys were impressed that the SS's sound projected so well that far out to them.

[cphollis]

Mono signals definitely collapse to the front, but it's a decent front. Up close, mono AP does a bit boxy, but for some reason distance really improves the sound, even in mono.

 

As said before, if you're looking for near-field monitoring only, not your first choice.

 

For those of you concerned about sheer volume, have no fear. Rated at 280w, sounds more like 500+.

[Bill Spencer]

It's said that the front firing speaker only gets signals that are common to the L&R inputs, so technically it's not supposed to be 'collapsing to mono'.

 

However, I did a test where I sent it two totally different signals, in which case nothing should come out the front. Not so- both signals were present at the front speaker, so I'm not understanding something.

 

+1 on the 'boxy' up close. I LOVE my SS, but find there are very few gigs where I can put it far enough away to get the best bloom. It would have to be on the other side of the bandstand (next to someone else in the band), or offstage next to someone in the audience.

 

Spence

[Reezekeys]

It's said that the front firing speaker only gets signals that are common to the L&R inputs, so technically it's not supposed to be 'collapsing to mono'.

What you're saying makes sense and I should probably retract what I said maybe edit my post. "Common to L&R" is not the same as plain "L&R."

 

[On edit- I can't edit my previous post, the Edit button is gone. Must be a time limit thing.]

 

Having said that, I am intrigued by your experiment that shows that "common to L&R" may not be exactly what's coming out of the SS's front speaker.

 

I did an experiment a few months ago using Bidule (my VI host) to do a mid-side encode of my piano. I arranged my two QSCs next to each other at 90º. I was not trying to create my "poor man's SpaceStation", just curious if I could hear any effect at all and what it might do for my sound (I've had to set up in tight quarters and have my two speakers close together). It didn't sound that good, and the forward facing speaker ("common to L&R") was as boxy to me as plain mono which could be my samples too.

[PianoMan51]

Mr. Reeze,

 

As a Bidule convert I tried the same thing last fall. It was fun. Clone VB3 through L'Otary sounds dynamite, acoustic piano not so much.

 

Here's what I did:

1). Recognize that Aspen's model is the inverse of M-S recording, so the front speaker is L+R and the side speaker is L-R. (those are mathematical adding and subtracting in Bidule)

2). For the side speaker I just used an 8" speaker, freestanding, and placed it directly behind my 10" powered speaker box.

 

When you set up a Bidule mixer for L+R into one channel and L-R into a second channel, you can immediately how much real difference is in the original L and R signals. For instance, the internal Leslie sim in VB3 has very little difference between the L and R. L'Otary has much much more, and therefore sounds really great with the pseudo SpaceStation.

 

Here's what I hypothesize about acoustic piano and the SpaceStation concept. If the piano was originally recorded in M-S or in phase-aligned stereo, all is good. The front facing speaker plays a signal that collapses into mono nicely, and the side speaker plays the ambient parts.

 

But if the piano was originally recorded with a widely spaced set of microphones (to sound optimal in a widely spaced pair of speakers) when the left and right are collapsed into the (L+R) front, we hear a comb-filtered piano from the main front speaker and it sounds bad, no matter what comes from the side speaker.

 

Mr. Man

[cedar]

I've been procrastinating for a long time on buying a cover or case for the SS.

 

Can someone please either: (1) mention any recommended cover/cases; and/or (2) remind me how to phrase a search in google, so that it shows individual posts from this thread?

[drawback]

Cedar, I think it's the [url:http://www.skbcases.com/music/products/proddetail.php?f=&id=218&o=&offset=&c=81&s=81]SKB Rolling Mixer Bag.[/url]

 

 

[Reezekeys]

OK now it looks like I may be retracting my retraction!

 

In my never-ending quest for knowledge (OK, I'm in a major dry spell with gigs so I have more time to hang around here ) I've read up a bit on M-S theory. According to this site, "One thing that can be confusing is that the mid signal actually contains signals that are panned completely left or completely right. These components are not canceled out. Rather, signals panned left or right will be relatively lower in amplitude than signals panned to the center.", so this:

 

It's said that the front firing speaker only gets signals that are common to the L&R inputs, so technically it's not supposed to be 'collapsing to mono'.

...is actually not exactly correct then? L+R is just both channels combined, or straight-up mono?

 

What's confusing me a little is that when you're recording in m/s, the mid signal is captured in mono, with one microphone it starts out mono. What we're talking about here is deriving a mid channel from two channels. Is it the same or different? In the former case, you could say that "two channels" are getting combined acoustically, then entering the microphone. I find this interesting and it probably has something to do with this:

 

Here's what I hypothesize about acoustic piano and the SpaceStation concept. If the piano was originally recorded in M-S or in phase-aligned stereo, all is good. The front facing speaker plays a signal that collapses into mono nicely, and the side speaker plays the ambient parts.

 

But if the piano was originally recorded with a widely spaced set of microphones (to sound optimal in a widely spaced pair of speakers) when the left and right are collapsed into the (L+R) front, we hear a comb-filtered piano from the main front speaker and it sounds bad, no matter what comes from the side speaker.

This makes sense to me. From what I'm reading, if you want to do close-miking of an acoustic piano and keep a wide stereo image, the x/y technique should be used to minimize phase problems when collapsing to mono but maybe there's a reason it doesn't work well for pianos? Or maybe there's another issue going on that makes some stereo sampled pianos sound "boxy" in mono.

[Raymb1]

All the piano sounds from my PX5s sound very good through the SSV3. I run through a small mixer, then to the SSV3. I have to turn up the EQ on the highs only. I do a lot of solo gigs and use Band in a Box or iReal Pro for my bass and drums. My musician friends all ask about the SSV3 when they hear it.

[PianoMan51]

This is either going to make M-S seem simpler or harder depending on whether you understand it as an engineer or as fluffy marketing-speak. (I've been both.)

 

On the recording end:

1). The center mike (M) is omnidirectional. It picks up sound from all directions in mono. Since our interest is in Left versus Right, let's call this signal L+R. (Rather than Front/Back or Top/Bottom).

2). The side mic (S) is figure-eight and captures sound coming from the Left direction 'in' phase and sound coming from the Right direction '180 deg out of phase'. The recorded S signal is L-R.

3). We do this because when de-coded from M-S to Left/Right stereo the L and R stereo signals can be collapsed to mono without phase distortion. Given the lack of mono playback systems, this method hasn't been used as much lately, because (at least to my ears), the results from separated L and R mics can sound better on stereo playback systems. Check out the mic positions available from Ravenscroft or other piano sample VSTs to hear the difference.

 

To decode the two channel M-S to L and R stereo speakers we:

4). Add M+S: ((L+R) + (L-R)) = 2L which becomes the Left stereo signal.

5). Subtract M-S: ((L+R) - (L-R)) = 2R which becomes the Right stereo signal.

 

What (I believe) the SpaceStation does very cooly is this:

6). Take the two input signals, L and R, add them to become L+R which becomes the original M signal which is amplified as a mono signal and directed towards the front.

7). Take the two input signals, L and R, subtract them to become L-R which becomes the original S signal which is amplified as a mono signal but is transduced by the open-backed speaker into an in-phase sound pointed Left, and a 180 deg out-of-phase sound pointed Right.

8). The audience's ears become the de-coders. Do the arithmetic yourself to get a feel and for extra-credit.

 

Re: the Casio Privia, I've owned one for almost 15 years, a PX-100. The stereo piano sound collapses perfectly into mono. This leads me to think that Casio (back then) started out with a mono piano sound and doctored it to simulate stereo. Or perhaps they used an M-S system for sampling. This works great with the SpaceStation because the front facing speaker is sending a nice mono signal that sounds good by itself.

 

We'll have a pop quiz on Monday!

[Reezekeys]

Yes this is what I thought the SS did. I was a little perplexed by Bill Spencer's post saying the "front firing speaker only gets signals that are common to the L&R inputs, so technically it's not supposed to be 'collapsing to mono'." Is that or is that not the same as just combining L & R to make mono? Which is the same as "collapsing to mono", right? He seemed to say there was something extra going on to derive the signal going to the front speaker. Give me a few more days before that quiz please!

 

BTW it's obvious my attempt at doing the M-S encoding was pretty far off - For my side channel I had a single K8 speaker firing to one side. It would have been better to have an open back speaker, I think. The speaker cone would effectively be sending the same sound waves out the back but 180º out of phase, correct? Or am I still gonna fail this quiz?!

[Bill Spencer]

My understanding was that the center speaker only carried signals that were common to L & R, the M/S system removing "non center" info. Apparently this is not the case, as my testing revealed. I think we can conclude that the center speaker is simply L+R, or "collapsed to mono."

 

Sorry for any confusion.

[PianoMan51]

It would have been better to have an open back speaker, I think. The speaker cone would effectively be sending the same sound waves out the back but 180º out of phase, correct?

Good work for you!

[MotiDave]

Cedar, I think it's the [url:http://www.skbcases.com/music/products/proddetail.php?f=&id=218&o=&offset=&c=81&s=81]SKB Rolling Mixer Bag.[/url]

 

I got one like that but it was top loading, which works great for ss3 as it has a top handle. I can't remember the brand, maybe gator but not sure, its a mixer case. it had rigid sides under the canvas, pretty sweet. fit as perfect as could be. the guys at the online retailer I got it at would know ... I can't say who but they also sell the ss3

[Al Coda]

We'll have a pop quiz on Monday!

 

Obviously most ignore, the SSv3 front channel (L+R) and side channel (L-R) sound different from ground up,- caused by the "free standing" single channel amplified 6.5" side speaker acting "full range", but with the limitations every small-cone "full range" loudspeaker introduces.

 

The front speaker configuration (8" woofer/ Mid horn and tweeter) is tri-amped and sounds much better.

 

Its´s the price you pay for portability and it´s really hard to build a identical sounding front- and side speaker configuration, both tri-amped.

 

You could use the same 8" woofer as a side speaker and fireing to both sides, but that doesn´t work w/ a single midrange driver and tweeter.

You cannot mount compression drivers "free standing" w/ the intention fireing back and forth like you can do w/ a woofer, because Mid/Hi (compression-) drivers are sealed and don´t offer any acoustic output on the back.

 

So, when creating acoustically identical front- and side-systems,- you´d need the woofer fireing back and forth freefield, 2 midrange drivers and 2 tweeters each pair fireing in opposite direction and 5 amps incl. crossovers for the side channel alone and all phase aligned when fireing in one of the directions at a time.

Now add the front channel and you have 8 amps, 8 speakers and related x-overs and don´t forget the encoder/decoder.

Put that into a case and think about what size it might be, what the weight is and what it will cost.

 

The explanation of M/S and what SSv3 does is very good in your post above,- but in general, that´s the studio situation, sitting in front of your pair of stereo studio monitors.

I understand (point 3 of your post), the target of M/S technology was, make "better" or more usefull stereo signals available for better MONO reproduction.

 

The target of the SSv3 using M/S technology is different,- it makes a incoming stereo signal sounding in quasi-stereo from a single cab and even it´s awesome for some signals, it´s not so good for some others.

 

The most important channel of the SSv3 is the tri-amped front which is for the common understanding MONO.

The SSv3 converts the incoming stereo into L+R (mono), while the side channel gives you the illusion of 3D, but w/ less sonic quality vs the front channel.

 

When the front and side channel on the SSv3 were acoustically identical, the result would be improved I think.

 

Acoustic piano samples being created by using M/S technology too might be the better sources for the SSv3, but I´m not sure,- and ... which manufacturer will tell you how he sampled his piano libraries ?

 

What´s up w/ piano libraries not using samples at all,- physical modelling instead ?

Do those sound significantly better w/ the SSv3 ?

 

A.C.

 

 

 

[drawback]

Cedar, I think it's the [url:http://www.skbcases.com/music/products/proddetail.php?f=&id=218&o=&offset=&c=81&s=81]SKB Rolling Mixer Bag.[/url]

 

I got one like that but it was top loading, which works great for ss3 as it has a top handle. I can't remember the brand, maybe gator but not sure, its a mixer case. it had rigid sides under the canvas, pretty sweet. fit as perfect as could be. the guys at the online retailer I got it at would know ... I can't say who but they also sell the ss3

 

 

[url:http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GPA720]This?[/url]

 

 

[Reezekeys]

The target of the SSv3 using M/S technology is different,- it makes a incoming stereo signal sounding in quasi-stereo from a single cab and even it´s awesome for some signals, it´s not so good for some others.

 

The most important channel of the SSv3 is the tri-amped front which is for the common understanding MONO.

Which goes to the point I kind of made somewhere a few (or many) tens of pages back stereo samples that sound bad in mono may not sound too good through this amp. OTOH, a Rhodes or B3 (mono sources) through a Leslie effect or phaser/chorus should sound amazing. I really want to hear an organ sample through a good rotary effect with this amp, I'm guessing I would be very impressed.

 

Acoustic piano samples being created by using M/S technology too might be the better sources for the SSv3, but I´m not sure,- and ... which manufacturer will tell you how he sampled his piano libraries ?

That brings up a very good question why wouldn't piano sample makers use M/S or X/Y (which from my reading is another way to get stereo without the phase problems of wide micing)? It can only be an advantage to have good mono compatibility. On my local gigs I use my two QSCs but when I tour I got one wedge and it was such a drag to hear my acoustic piano, knowing how much better it sounded at the local bar! I say "got" because I just went in-ears so I have full-time stereo now.

[Danny Linguini]

My understanding was that the center speaker only carried signals that were common to L & R, the M/S system removing "non center" info. Apparently this is not the case, as my testing revealed. I think we can conclude that the center speaker is simply L+R, or "collapsed to mono."

 

Sorry for any confusion.

 

This was my understanding as well. So now I'm even more confused about what comes out the front and what comes out the side. I know it's doing something, because there's a definite 3D affect going on that's not typical stereo, and definitely not mono, and obviously better than any single keyboard amp I've ever played through. I guess I need a propellerhead to draw me a picture.