Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[miden]

Good idea for the direct option Aspen. FWIW in Australia there would be no import duties or GST as it is under $1000.

 

However there may possibly have to be further adjustment to the "discount for shipping" amount as it will cost around $200 to have it shipped...and that's bottom of the shipping service range!

 

I am interested in getting one though, so I will try and find a way to contact you. If you could try and send me a PM to kick it off that would be appreciated.

 

Although I am not sure PMs are working to my user account?? I mentioned it last year to the admins but I think it is still broken for me...

 

[J. Dan]

Good idea for the direct option Aspen. FWIW in Australia there would be no import duties or GST as it is under $1000.

 

However there may possibly have to be further adjustment to the "discount for shipping" amount as it will cost around $200 to have it shipped...and that's bottom of the shipping service range!

 

I am interested in getting one though, so I will try and find a way to contact you. If you could try and send me a PM to kick it off that would be appreciated.

 

Although I am not sure PMs are working to my user account?? I mentioned it last year to the admins but I think it is still broken for me...

 

If there are enough Aussie's who want one, maybe you guys can get together and find a way to combine them in a single shipment to save money....not sure if that would affect the tax situation.

[John Tweed]

Good idea for the direct option Aspen. FWIW in Australia there would be no import duties or GST as it is under $1000.

 

However there may possibly have to be further adjustment to the "discount for shipping" amount as it will cost around $200 to have it shipped...and that's bottom of the shipping service range!

 

From what I am reading and hearing in the demos the Spacestation 3 could be a major gamechanger, and I am pretty sure there is one in my future.

 

I'm in Australia and I've just received an answer to my enquiry to Sweetwater - the cost, including shipping to me (at today's $US price), would be under $1000 Australian, or slightly more than the price I paid for a K10 a year or two back. I can't imagine that any importer/retailer would be likely to make it available any cheaper. Generally the rule of thumb here is to double the US $ price, which would bring up to $1200. Considering that it would do more or less the same job as two K10s, it's a bargain.

 

The GST would apply if more than one SS3 was landed.That's 10% or roughly $70 AUD. If the shipping cost could be halved by going in together, we'd save money. This might well be offset by the cost of transporting the unit to the various cities around Australia. It all starts to get complicated.

 

I don't think I have ever bought anything new directly from outside Australia (second-hand yes) due to concerns over the warranty, and in any case I like to support the local music stores. At this stage I'm waiting to hear reports from other forum members who I'm sure will tell us how it works with various digital pianos, and confirm there are no likely warranty issues.

 

Aspen welcome to the forum, and I wish you every success with this venture. It's great to hear the technical talk, especially from a supplier.

 

Question: one SS3 is claimed to be sufficient for a small room, but what about large auditoriums - could one giant SS replace the line arrays (?) in concert venues?

 

 

[niacin]

I'm also in Australia (Canberra). I also got a quote from Sweetwater for well under a grand and will place an order this week. I don't see buying 2 or 3 in the same shipment would save much if anything.

 

I have bought stuff new from the US before, in 2 cases due to the absence at the time of a local supplier (Studiologic VMK-161plus, and an ACME B1 bass cab) and in the 3rd (EMU VK-6) due to the stupid money Electric Factory wanted for EMU and Ensoniq gear.

 

Aspen, if you are interested in pursuing a local supplier down under I'll suggest Audio Chocolate. They import high end audio gear including Moog, Dave Smith and the Vintage Vibe electric pianos, just to name a few. They have their own service department. I've bought a couple of things from them and found them helpful, knowledgeable, and the prices they've asked have made it easy to choose to buy from them rather than source stuff online from overseas. And no I don't work for them or anything.

 

http://www.audiochocolate.com.au/

[miden]

TBH, Audio Chocolate does pretty much the same thing as CMI...inflated prices simply because no-one else has the product.

 

Also, I think you guys are crazy paying all that shipping (near $400!!!)

[niacin]

FWIW for both items - a Dave Smith Evolver and A Studiologic Numa organ - they quoted me way under the price listed on their website.

[J. Dan]

This is maybe going slightly OT, but nonetheless very interesting to me. My day job is with a VERY large worldwide corporation (US based, but very large global presence). They have started building manufacturing plants in each world area to serve those markets. So even in a multi-billion dollar market, it seems to make sense to manufacture in the destination country to avoid shipping costs, import, and more importantly (and a lot of people don't think of this) manufacture specifically to local approval codes and local options. People don't think about UL, CSA, CE and other approvals. Each has certain requirements and are required in different world areas. They are expensive and time consuming to achieve. There are far greater considerations to doing business globally that where you can ship.

 

When we release products, usually it's something like Q1 no approvals, Q2 US and Canadian approvals, Q3 European approvals, Q4 Asia.

[Markay]

The electrical certification adds another cost for hardware. That is why wall warts and lumps are now ubiquitous. While Australia has adopted the IEC 230v standard, down from 240v, the supply voltage is often still at the upper end of the plus 10% permitted tolerance (max 253v). Where I am in metro Sydney supply at the outlet is typically 247v. So good idea for manufacturers to use power supplies that can handle up to the permitted 253v to avoid premature failure in our market.

 

Local distribution was mandatory pre-internet. Now manufacturers have the option of selling direct and negoitating a low cost international shipping deal with UPS, Fedex or similar. Cuts out unnecessary additional layers of intermediaries and their margin.

 

In reality local distribution of boutique product does not mean retailers will stock it. Using Audio Chocolate as an example you can find DSI product on display at some of the retailers they have listed, which in NSW includes only one with a decent KB section, but I have never seen a Numa on display at that shop.

 

I am certain that if you want to buy one the retailer would ask for payment up front, get it shipped from the distributor, assuming they have it in stock, and call you to pick it up when it arrives.

 

You could probably get it for less including shipping, and quicker, buying it from Sweetwater, no local warranty however. Of course you may be able to buy direct from Audio Chocolate but that cuts out their retailers which doesn't win them any friends amongst the retailers who prefer to stock stuff from a distributor who will not supply retail customers.

 

Software has eliminated the middle man, fast international shipping is now doing it for physical product.

[Aspen]

I'm also in Australia (Canberra). I also got a quote from Sweetwater for well under a grand and will place an order this week.

 

Aspen, if you are interested in pursuing a local supplier down under I'll suggest Audio Chocolate. They import high end audio gear including Moog, Dave Smith and the Vintage Vibe electric pianos, just to name a few. They have their own service department. I've bought a couple of things from them and found them helpful, knowledgeable, and the prices they've asked have made it easy to choose to buy from them rather than source stuff online from overseas. And no I don't work for them or anything.

 

http://www.audiochocolate.com.au/

I think for the near term direct sales may be our only option, at least until I catch up with the Sweetwater's backorders. I have checked shipping USPS parcel "priority" and the on line price is about $220. This is based on a 42lb package @ 22x16x16 boxed.

I have recently shipped USPS to Germany for about the same rate and it seemed to work out fine. The SS V.3 has a 230v tap on the transformer but must be opened up to make the change. However I have just received a PO from Sweetwater for a 230v unit so I know they ship over seas.

But, to be honest with you folks here, availability is going to be an issue for the near future, everything I ship SW in October is already sold. And our next shipment in late November is half sold out now!

Thank you for the distributor suggestion, I will look into them. If I take a Australian distributor, it would have to be one who sells direct to the end user, which would keep the street price within reason to the US street price.

[M_G]

Hi folks,

 

seems that the "one in Germany" is ME..

;-))

 

I will report back when I got the unit...

I am very interested in that kind of speaker design

so I took the risk and the costs to bring that

unique amp overseas.....

 

cheers

mg

 

That´s too cool man !

Where are you located in germany ?

Since we now know what the shipping costs are and VAT is 19% anyway, I´d be interested in what you paid for customs once it is arrived at your door.

 

And maybe, you find time demoing HX3 thru the CPS-SSV3

 

A.C.

 

Hi A.C.,

 

I live in the very south of Germany....

 

I got the Spacestation out of customs this morning and will check it out this weekend in my homestudio and next week at the rehearsals with my blues band.

 

The custom fee (Zoll) was 4.5% (was 23 Euros) and

19% VAT (was 101 Euros).

So "all in all" I paid 657 Euro, not cheap, but for example a (mono) QSCK10 will cost about the same....

[Analogaddict]

Thanks for the report..! That's great - I'm getting one as soon as finances allow.

[Al Coda]

Hi A.C.,

 

I live in the very south of Germany...

 

Hi M.G., sorry to read that,- because I´m in the north and now don´t have a chance to check out your Spacestation V3.

 

I got the Spacestation out of customs this morning and will check it out this weekend in my homestudio and next week at the rehearsals with my blues band.

 

Cool, looking forward your reports !

 

The custom fee (Zoll) was 4.5% (was 23 Euros) and

19% VAT (was 101 Euros).

So "all in all" I paid 657 Euro, not cheap, but for example a (mono) QSCK10 will cost about the same....

 

Thx for the info !

I´ll shoot you a PM now, please read.

 

best

 

A.C.

[16251]

Thanks for the report..! That's great - I'm getting one as soon as finances allow.

I've already ordered mine as I stated in an earlier email. FYI - $400 of total is being financed by cash back program from credit card co.

 

I pay off my CC each month for those of you who think I might be paying 19%, etc.

[Six-string-man]

 

I pay off my CC each month for those of you who think I might be paying 19%, etc.

 

 

 

Just be grateful you can get 19%! Some CC companies over here are charging 32%. I always pay mine off at the end of each month.

 

 

SSM

[miden]

I'm also in Australia (Canberra). I also got a quote from Sweetwater for well under a grand and will place an order this week.

 

Aspen, if you are interested in pursuing a local supplier down under I'll suggest Audio Chocolate. They import high end audio gear including Moog, Dave Smith and the Vintage Vibe electric pianos, just to name a few. They have their own service department. I've bought a couple of things from them and found them helpful, knowledgeable, and the prices they've asked have made it easy to choose to buy from them rather than source stuff online from overseas. And no I don't work for them or anything.

 

http://www.audiochocolate.com.au/

I think for the near term direct sales may be our only option, at least until I catch up with the Sweetwater's backorders. I have checked shipping USPS parcel "priority" and the on line price is about $220. This is based on a 42lb package @ 22x16x16 boxed.

I have recently shipped USPS to Germany for about the same rate and it seemed to work out fine. The SS V.3 has a 230v tap on the transformer but must be opened up to make the change. However I have just received a PO from Sweetwater for a 230v unit so I know they ship over seas.

But, to be honest with you folks here, availability is going to be an issue for the near future, everything I ship SW in October is already sold. And our next shipment in late November is half sold out now!

Thank you for the distributor suggestion, I will look into them. If I take a Australian distributor, it would have to be one who sells direct to the end user, which would keep the street price within reason to the US street price.

 

In that case Aspen, will you introduce some way for us to buy direct from you via your website? That shipping quote is much lower than those I have found.

 

FWIW, and due to the small market here (in Oz) I would strongly recommend you stick with the direct method. Even Audio Chocolate will "value add" and the price will not be comparable to the US price at all.

For example the Physis K5 in the US can be had for around $2150-2200.....in Oz (and from Audio Chocolate as they are the exclusive distributor)) the best they reckon they can do is $2700 plus shipping.

[Joe Muscara]

I wonder how Guido/Crumar does it, and if they might be any help.

[DanL]

Ordered mine today... probably be a couple weeks since they don't expect more until 10/15 but that's ok, I can wait. Maybe.

[Al Coda]

I have checked shipping USPS parcel "priority" and the on line price is about $ 220. This is based on a 42lb package @ 22x16x16 boxed.

I have recently shipped USPS to Germany for about the same rate and it seemed to work out fine.

 

I checked DHL because I myself shipped several items of gear to US, UK and other countries and never had an issue.

 

DHL from germany to US is EUR 68.- / USD 85,91 incl. EUR 500.- insurance, weight up to 20 kilos (42lbs boxed is 19.0512 kilos),- size: 120 x 60 x 60 cm.

 

22" is 55.88 cm

16" is 40.64 cm

 

So, it should be easy to get it over the pond for that price, even double boxed and with thick padding.

 

Premium service is EUR 131.99,- about USD 167.-

Insurance is the same.

I expect premium service to be faster but not urgently necessary.

It really depends if it goes by ship or by plane.

 

All mentioned above is private rates,- there are business rates too,- probably much cheaper when shipping more than one item over the time,- lets say 10 items within a month or similar.

Doesn´t mean you have to ship multiple items simultaneously.

 

A.C.

 

[Al Coda]

I wonder how Guido/Crumar does it, and if they might be any help.

 

GSi is in europe, they probably use DHL and pay business rates.

 

According to a friend running an hi-end hi-fi shop and being studio owner as well, he importing and exporting gear as ebay power seller, he´s using DHL for international shipping exclusively because it´s the cheapest and there aren´t less issues w/ UPS, FedEx or others.

Sometimes a parcel is trashed,- that happens everywhere.

They also pick up from the store.

 

When I get stuff from Thomann or Musicstore it comes also w/ DHL ...

 

A.C.

[Aspen]

\I would strongly recommend you stick with the direct method. Even Audio Chocolate will "value add" and the price will not be comparable to the US price at all.

For example the Physis K5 in the US can be had for around $2150-2200.....in Oz (and from Audio Chocolate as they are the exclusive distributor)) the best they reckon they can do is $2700 plus shipping.

Actually, that AC mark up of roughly 20% may not be too out of line, but is that "plus shipping" you mentioned internal OZ shipping or state side shipping?

My issue is with distribution schemes that add 100%+ to the comparative end user's price. If I pay 20% over US street price, and get some support and delivery convenience...I'm real good with that!

I began dealing with this issue in 1973 as a export manager for Acoustic Amps and through 2008 when I sold my Groove Tubes company to Fender and "retired". Any "2 step" (dist-dlr) structure is going to have a big impact on end user prices...no way around those "market physics":

Assume a widget costs $10 + tax in the US at "street price",which is what the dealer sells it for to an end user (and remember we Yanks, unlike the EC, advertise prices WITHOUT sales tax that can range from state to state 2-13%)

So then if the US manufacturer makes a quantity export price for his export distributor, which is usually a bit lower than US dealer price, the distributor will likely pay about $6 for the $10 widget. Then he will spend around 25%+ importation overhead (freight/duty/fees), so his landed cost on that widget is around $8 by the time it's in his warehouse.

Now he sells to his dealers and marks it up 40%+ to support his facility/sales/service/advertising overhead so "dealer cost" can quickly become $12.

Of course the dealer pays freight too (avg 7% on a heavy widget like mine :>), so now his "landed cost" is around $13. The dealer also has overhead too, so he needs a 45% Mark up...just to make a 5% net profit.

So with a traditional "2 step" scheme the end user is finally paying close to $20 PLUS 19% VAT (in EU). Therefore his final cost is close to $24...for a US made $10 widget!

This is why I want a "1 step", if any, between me and my end user, like I have with Sweetwater here is the USA. So that in OZ or EC my $10 widget is no more than $14-15 to his door step (including duty and freight, but before tax/VAT)

[Al Coda]

Therefore his final cost is close to $24...for a US made $10 widget!

 

Excellent explanation, you nailed it !

 

This is why I want a "1 step", if any, between me and my end user, like I have with Sweetwater here is the USA. So that in OZ or EC my $10 widget is no more than $14-15 to his door step (including duty and freight, but before tax/VAT)

 

Yes, and when you have found your "1-step" solution it should have a large service center.

"Musicstore" (Cologne) was your dealer in the past IIRC.

They are extremely big meanwhile and now have a large in house service center.

A major selling point is also "Musicstore" and other big german online dealers give a 3-year extended warranty for the online sales.

It makes a big difference when buying directly in the US or here and I really prefer to pay a bit more just only for that 3-year extended warranty and don´t have to ship gear to the US for repairs and wait until it comes back,- maybe trashed in addition because of the long distance rides.

 

A.C.

[niacin]

I'm also in Australia (Canberra). I also got a quote from Sweetwater for well under a grand and will place an order this week.

 

Aspen, if you are interested in pursuing a local supplier down under I'll suggest Audio Chocolate. They import high end audio gear including Moog, Dave Smith and the Vintage Vibe electric pianos, just to name a few. They have their own service department. I've bought a couple of things from them and found them helpful, knowledgeable, and the prices they've asked have made it easy to choose to buy from them rather than source stuff online from overseas. And no I don't work for them or anything.

 

http://www.audiochocolate.com.au/

I think for the near term direct sales may be our only option, at least until I catch up with the Sweetwater's backorders. I have checked shipping USPS parcel "priority" and the on line price is about $220. This is based on a 42lb package @ 22x16x16 boxed.

I have recently shipped USPS to Germany for about the same rate and it seemed to work out fine. The SS V.3 has a 230v tap on the transformer but must be opened up to make the change. However I have just received a PO from Sweetwater for a 230v unit so I know they ship over seas.

But, to be honest with you folks here, availability is going to be an issue for the near future, everything I ship SW in October is already sold. And our next shipment in late November is half sold out now!

Thank you for the distributor suggestion, I will look into them. If I take a Australian distributor, it would have to be one who sells direct to the end user, which would keep the street price within reason to the US street price.

 

FYI I bought direct from Audio Chocolate, which was indeed probably why they gave me such a good price. I don't think they have many stores anywhere carrying much of their stock, and would be surprised if they did given the boutique nature of most of it.

 

The Sweetwater 230v order is mine. I'm playing Hammond-centered soul-funk gigs with a bit of clav and Wurli, just a 3 or 4-piece line-up, so I'm thinking my SK1-73 and the Spacestation should see me good. Really looking forward to hearing the leslie sim through this.

[miden]

\I would strongly recommend you stick with the direct method. Even Audio Chocolate will "value add" and the price will not be comparable to the US price at all.

For example the Physis K5 in the US can be had for around $2150-2200.....in Oz (and from Audio Chocolate as they are the exclusive distributor)) the best they reckon they can do is $2700 plus shipping.

Actually, that AC mark up of roughly 20% may not be too out of line, but is that "plus shipping" you mentioned internal OZ shipping or state side shipping?

My issue is with distribution schemes that add 100%+ to the comparative end user's price. If I pay 20% over US street price, and get some support and delivery convenience...I'm real good with that!

I began dealing with this issue in 1973 as a export manager for Acoustic Amps and through 2008 when I sold my Groove Tubes company to Fender and "retired". Any "2 step" (dist-dlr) structure is going to have a big impact on end user prices...no way around those "market physics":

Assume a widget costs $10 + tax in the US at "street price",which is what the dealer sells it for to an end user (and remember we Yanks, unlike the EC, advertise prices WITHOUT sales tax that can range from state to state 2-13%)

So then if the US manufacturer makes a quantity export price for his export distributor, which is usually a bit lower than US dealer price, the distributor will likely pay about $6 for the $10 widget. Then he will spend around 25%+ importation overhead (freight/duty/fees), so his landed cost on that widget is around $8 by the time it's in his warehouse.

Now he sells to his dealers and marks it up 40%+ to support his facility/sales/service/advertising overhead so "dealer cost" can quickly become $12.

Of course the dealer pays freight too (avg 7% on a heavy widget like mine :>), so now his "landed cost" is around $13. The dealer also has overhead too, so he needs a 45% Mark up...just to make a 5% net profit.

So with a traditional "2 step" scheme the end user is finally paying close to $20 PLUS 19% VAT (in EU). Therefore his final cost is close to $24...for a US made $10 widget!

This is why I want a "1 step", if any, between me and my end user, like I have with Sweetwater here is the USA. So that in OZ or EC my $10 widget is no more than $14-15 to his door step (including duty and freight, but before tax/VAT)

 

Excellent explanation Aspen. The plus shipping would be Oz. around $60 I guess.

 

I still reckon you establishing a "store" on your webpage would give you the result you need. It would also make it a cinch for ALL overseas buyers to get your product. And of course it would also mean all profits stay with you

 

As for tech support, well in Oz the electronics techs who do this work do it for MANY companies and it would not be onerous to find a couple in say, Sydney or Melbourne, give them the specs and workshop manuals and organise a payment schedule for warranty work.

 

However, ALL the tech shops take approx three to seven weeks for any repairs, simply due to volume of work. It is not uncommon to find a tech who also repairs TV's for example (if TVs still get repaired these days )

 

Even the distributors out here farm out the repair work to outside tech firms. There are a couple who do in house warranty/repair work. There is a retailer in the ACT here called Better Music, a big BIG store! (and I personally know one of the directors) who have their own staff techs. They have been known to import directly where there is no established distributor.

[AnotherScott]

Thanks for the followup, but those sounds don't really test for the scenario I described.

 

OK well perhaps there are users better equipped to test these hypothesis, or maybe Aspen can run some recordings of your scenario. .

 

I went back to a EP with a stereo autopan and then a L/R ping pong and tried combinations of manually panning hard L and R on the MOX , and then adjusting the width on the SS.

 

I am not in a controlled space, this is my living room and stock patches, and most probably I dont know what I am listening for :idk

I think the sounds you mentioned this time (EP with a stereo autopan and then a L/R ping pong) would be good choices for what I was talking about. Basically, anything where the sound (sometimes or always) comes exclusively from hard left or hard right. But as I've thought about it more, I'm not sure what you should be listening for either. ;-) If Sub Out always contains what we typically think of as L+R (regardless of what the side speaker is doing, or how you set the Width control), then I guess nothing should get lost, but I'm not sure how that avoids the phase issues that sometimes occur with typical L+R summing with a mixer. OTOH, if L+R in this case "filters out any 'different' signals, and so leaves only those that are the 'same'" in both channels, what happens if part of the sound exists only in one channel? If it has been "filtered out" of the L+R (front facing) speaker, is that sound missing from the Sub Out that might feed FOH? So yeah, I'm a little confused. ;-)

[Aspen]

Therefore his final cost is close to $24...for a US made $10 widget!

 

Excellent explanation, you nailed it !

 

This is why I want a "1 step", if any, between me and my end user, like I have with Sweetwater here is the USA. So that in OZ or EC my $10 widget is no more than $14-15 to his door step (including duty and freight, but before tax/VAT)

 

Yes, and when you have found your "1-step" solution it should have a large service center.

"Musicstore" (Cologne) was your dealer in the past IIRC.

They are extremely big meanwhile and now have a large in house service center.

A major selling point is also "Musicstore" and other big german online dealers give a 3-year extended warranty for the online sales.

It makes a big difference when buying directly in the US or here and I really prefer to pay a bit more just only for that 3-year extended warranty and don´t have to ship gear to the US for repairs and wait until it comes back,- maybe trashed in addition because of the long distance rides.

 

A.C.

All good points AC, I am listening to some VERY good advice on this site...and I truly thank you and your colliges. I will do my best to contact and discuss a partnership with Musikstore Koln. FYI I had great respect for them before but I have lost close contact with the owners or managers as I have been "off radar" for 6 years. So it may take some time. Meanwhile I am overwhelmed with such a positive response and my first duty is to my US customers. I am hoping to fill all back orders and get some "stock on the shelves" by end of Q1 2015, so maybe Q2 2015 would be earliest time I could supply the EU.

[Aspen]

I still reckon you establishing a "store" on your webpage would give you the result you need. It would also make it a cinch for ALL overseas buyers to get your product. And of course it would also mean all profits stay with you

 

NOTE: I do have a store but had to deactivate the "BUY" because I sold out quickly. I get a another shipment in tomorrow but 80% goes to Sweetwater, and that will not be enough to fill all their current orders.

 

 

[Aspen]

There is a retailer in the ACT here called Better Music, a big BIG store! (and I personally know one of the directors) who have their own staff techs. They have been known to import directly where there is no established distributor.

I really appreciate your information, I would love to find a way to get a dealer/service center Downunder...there is such a powerful music scene there that I would like to be apart of. Although, to be totally honest about service, after selling over 1,000 Spacestaions MK1 and SFX100, then later about 600 MK2 Spacestations...I didn't have a single warranty claim. That said, while my designs are "overbuilt" to error on the side of caution, damage can occur. Therefore I maintain a good stock of extra components so I can respond fairly quickly.

[J. Dan]

Aspen, sorry if this is OT, but if it applies, it may also help give some insight for the folks.

 

I deal in industrial measurement. We sell all over the world, often in hazardous areas, so area classifications and 3rd party approvals are critical. I'm far too familiar with the extra time and expense to obtain approvals that are needed in other world areas.

 

For the uninitiated, I'm talking UL vs CSA, CE, etc. Except I deal with FM, Exida, etc. Anyway, I'm curious how that applies to this kind of product.

 

 

 

Edit: I want to expand and explain my post. There is a lot of talk over import/export, shipping, taxes, etc. Approvals have not been discussed. We've set up manufacturing in various world areas for all the reasons discussed, AND approvals. So our Asian manufacturing will serve Asian markets and manufacture to Asian standards. That frees our NA operations to serve US and canada. I usually specify CSA C-US because in NA it's more widely accepted than UL.. Yet we have to have UL because some require it. So I don't know what's required in OZ, for instance.

[Aspen]

I think the sounds you mentioned this time (EP with a stereo autopan and then a L/R ping pong) would be good choices for what I was talking about. Basically, anything where the sound (sometimes or always) comes exclusively from hard left or hard right. But as I've thought about it more, I'm not sure what you should be listening for either. ;-) If Sub Out always contains what we typically think of as L+R (regardless of what the side speaker is doing, or how you set the Width control), then I guess nothing should get lost, but I'm not sure how that avoids the phase issues that sometimes occur with typical L+R summing with a mixer. OTOH, if L+R in this case "filters out any 'different' signals, and so leaves only those that are the 'same'" in both channels, what happens if part of the sound exists only in one channel? If it has been "filtered out" of the L+R (front facing) speaker, is that sound missing from the Sub Out that might feed FOH? So yeah, I'm a little confused. ;-)

(with a nod to "Dear Abby" : >)

Dear Confused; I have been holding off more comment on this speculation of a L+R send to FOH "problem". I wanted some of you w/ the MK2 or the new V.3 to "chime" in on your experiences. From those of you CPS (and SFX) users the general consensus agrees with my findings; it ain't "Broke" (so nothing to fix).

 

Even for those of you who have in past summed a L&R to Mono in your mixers for a FOH send...I don't really think you've ever had a "problem" per se...although we all know mono sucks when you KNOW it could be stereo! But FOH is almost always Mono, except it would seem from comments I've read here that some of our Euro brothers seem to still practice it (no comment).

 

That said then, my CPS Sub out, which is my Front speaker L+R signal, is no worse than what you have heard and used in past...and maybe a wee bit better just because of how we might buffer it. But most importantly; it works just FINE as a sub signal...which was the original intention. That it also can serve as a FOH and/or a "booster" signal should you want more SPL on stage by adding a powered PA monitor (DIRECTLY UNDERNEATH PLEASE!), it is frosting on the cake.

 

In my experience working with CPS for 14 years now; the L+R sounds just fine, nothing seem to be "missing", that is UNTIL you turn up the Side level...then WOW, it really comes together nicely. Regardless, some will always speculate something might be missing in a hard L&R patch", but I have never observed a real problem with that in practice.

 

Maybe that is because in any Ping Pong, or Rhodes style Doppler panning effect, the signal passes Left to Right, then back again...THRU the "middle", so there is almost ALWAYS something there for the L&R...it doesn't just "drop out". At least not as I've heard.

 

In working with EP thru CPS for many years, I always LOOK for the wide stereo patches to show off the CPS 3D effect. And believe me they are few and far between! All I have to do is turn up/down the Width" (Side) level, and I can instantly find the strong stereo patches (LOTS of Side level action), and also weed out those mono patches (with ZERO Side level). Interestingly, I found that there are MANY mono patches in most "stereo" keyboards today, for what I think is an obvious reason; 99% of all keyboard amps are MONO! Most players are gonna play live thru a Mono KB amp ;>( sad, but true), but then agai...what choice did they have?

 

So the designers want the KB to have loads of patches that sound good in mono! And, playing live I am sure players get used to Mono, and so settle for less. And, they don't miss the dimension stereo can bring until they put on a set of headphones, and/or do some recording, and/or plug into a pair stereo speakers and stand in that narrow "sweet spot, and/or plug into one of my old SFX or new Center Point Stereo speakers...with that 3D stereo everywhere sweet spot. (apologies for my shameless pride : >)

 

IMHO the Keyboard designers include MANY mono options for this reason. Perhaps if CPS catches on, hint-hint, the KB designers will cut loose and give us more really interesting stereo patches!

[Aspen]

Good idea for the direct option Aspen. FWIW in Australia there would be no import duties or GST as it is under $1000.

 

Wow, that is REALLY good to hear, thanks for that!

 

I assume CST is like VAT? So you mean NO tax, and NO VAT under $1,000....no wonder so many musician love it downunder!