Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[Danny Linguini]

Just got my SS3 today. And its going back tomorrow. This thing really sounds like crap. Very poor quality sound.

Don't know if I'm doing something wrong or if everyone on this forum likes to sound like an AM radio?

I normally use powered PA speakers. Very clear clean sound.

My boards: Fantom x with ultimate keys SRX

Kronos2

Triton extreme 73

I play quality boards and I expect quality sound but the SS3 gets a FAIL from me.

Might be a stupid question, but are you sure you're feeding stereo into the SS? It almost sounds to me like it's only getting one side, which I think would automatically push everything out the side speaker, and yes, all by itself that will sound like crap. You'll get similar results if you turn the Width knob up too high. Make sure you have two good, equal cables coming from a stereo source going into the SS's L&R inputs. Placement of the amp in relation to where you are is also important -- if you're immediately to one side or the other, you'll get an earful of side speaker and not hear the fuller front drivers.

 

As most here are suggesting, take a little time to dial it in before giving up hope. Every speaker system needs to be tweaked to sound just right -- I'm sure whatever PA you're using now didn't sound like it does right out of the box without at least a little fiddling; and the uniqueness of the SS sometimes requires just a bit more tweaking. That being said, if you're using higher-end 12" or 15" active speakers, you're not going to get the same depth out of the SS -- but it certainly won't sound like an old AM radio, either. What you will get is very clear sound and a 3D stereo 'blossom' that you can't get from conventional stereo speaker cabs.

 

To paraphrase Aspen's suggestions on getting started with this amp from many, many seasons back in this thread (I think I have it close, at least it's how I worked with it):

- Turn all the settings on the amp down to 0, then turn up the main level only. I started about 9:00, or 1/4 volume -- you shouldn't need to go much higher than that in a small room.

- Bring up the mid and high levels to taste (mine are both at 1:00).

- Slowly bring up the Width, maybe 1/8th of a turn at a time. The best setting for this will vary greatly depending on the room you're in. In my little music room, I've got it at about 10:00 and that's about perfect. Larger rooms or more open areas may need more width setting.

 

Most of all, don't be afraid to ask questions here -- there are now plenty of users of this amp with all kinds of experience in all kinds of surroundings. Guaranteed somebody will be able to answer any questions you have.

[Worth]

That doesn't sound right at all. When I first got my SSV3 I struggled to get the quality sound that I had heared other forum members talk about . You need to be aware that the amp is extremely sensitive to the quality of the stereo input at any part of the chain. In my case it was simply the cables that I've been using on my previous amp were not of a high enough quality for the SSV 3 . This did not become apparent to me until I changed the cables . Literally I replaced the cables with medium expensive monster cables ( cost £40 ) and immediately the amp sounded round and full and the pianos went from being rather harsh and thin to clear and present . I placed the amp about 8 ft from me and started to play piano and the sound came from all around me . I can only guess if you have tried all the suggestions in this epic thread , and the amp still sound bad , that you must have s faulty product .

[Don Headley]

Thanks for the replies. I will be doing some investigative work.

I didn't mean to sound like an a$$. I was really frustrated with the sound. I had just gotten home after working all day and then a 5 hour drive in Friday afternoon rush hour traffic to get my daughter and son in law home from the airport. I was a bit thin on nerve.

As far as the SS3 sound goes, I am expecting a wide field of of quality stereo sound. I realize the bottom will be a bit light compared to my 12's.

To answer some questions in the replies above:

I'm using a Fantom X into a Yamaha MG10XU channels 1 & 2 hard panned L&R.

I did just notice I grabbed a set of trs cables instead of tr for my test yesterday.

I will retest tonight after work using the above suggestions.Again thanks for the replies.

[Danny Linguini]

Thanks for the replies. I will be doing some investigative work.

I didn't mean to sound like an a$$. I was really frustrated with the sound. I had just gotten home after working all day and then a 5 hour drive in Friday afternoon rush hour traffic to get my daughter and son in law home from the airport. I was a bit thin on nerve.

As far as the SS3 sound goes, I am expecting a wide field of of quality stereo sound. I realize the bottom will be a bit light compared to my 12's.

To answer some questions in the replies above:

I'm using a Fantom X into a Yamaha MG10XU channels 1 & 2 hard panned L&R.

I did just notice I grabbed a set of trs cables instead of tr for my test yesterday.

I will retest tonight after work using the above suggestions.Again thanks for the replies.

No need to apologize -- I think we've all experienced that kind of frustration with gear. Especially after seeing so much fanfare about this particular amp and experiencing not quite the same thing in person. You'll also see that a few other owners have experienced a similar initial disappointment with this amp until they've dialed it in. It didn't take me too much time to get my CP4 sounding like I have a 9' grande in my 13' dining room.

 

All is good. Play around some more, and definitely come back and let us know how you make out.

[HammondDave]

It didn't take me too much time to get my CP4 sounding like I have a 9' grande in my 13' dining room.

 

Really? Now that's magic...

[HAMEGZ]

A PSA,

not coming off like a jerk, but 129 pages lots to look thru lots to miss

 

POINT ONE

Apsen is a ONE MAN operation, hes been thru a lot, lots of challenges but considering all and I had the opportunity converse with him I think he is finally realizing one dream , and that is the SSV3. Some may want a bigger ss3 or a matching sub, but realize, its his baby, and he has to nurture it.

WIll he ever consider a SSV4?I dont think at this time frame.

 

AFA letting someone else pick up production, he had experience with Fender, and I will not speak for him, but reading all I saw, I would be hesitant to let someone else take my baby and throw it out with the bath water.

 

POINT TWO

 

the rare the SSV3 sounds bad

 

I had a similar but not quite as bold issues, my first problem was gain staging with an SM10 , I got rid of that mixer in the chain instead of fighting it I am one one board now, but can go into the others aux input if I need to run two boards

 

the second was CABLE QUALITY oh I thought I had the best cables possible, Wrong!!I replaced the cables from my keys to the ss and all of a sudden, no more spatial, overload,frequency problems..

 

Having said that, it is quite possible the poster had a bad unit, but Aspen and the vendor will make it right

 

finally , there are a few who it just doesn't work for ALA DB, and thats OK I like chocolate, he likes Sherbert, its a big world, just please don't crap out the product, but post constructive criticism, you have certain audio requirements that the SSV3 may not deliver , and thats OK

[garnermike]

And I spent about $15 in Velcro, presentation board, and chair leg pads and did this:

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2684211/Re_Head_s_up_SpaceStation_keyb#Post2684211

 

Over 350 gigs (with the SS2 and SS3), NO DIAL DAMAGE. And my vehicle is crammed every gig.

 

Yes, it doesn't protect the other surfaces of the SS3, but I don't care about that.

[garnermike]

I just never got ground hum from my SS2 or SS3. Now, my Motion Sound amps are a different story!

[Jimmy Keys]

Thanks for the replies. I will be doing some investigative work.

I didn't mean to sound like an a$$. I was really frustrated with the sound. I had just gotten home after working all day and then a 5 hour drive in Friday afternoon rush hour traffic to get my daughter and son in law home from the airport. I was a bit thin on nerve.

As far as the SS3 sound goes, I am expecting a wide field of of quality stereo sound. I realize the bottom will be a bit light compared to my 12's.

To answer some questions in the replies above:

I'm using a Fantom X into a Yamaha MG10XU channels 1 & 2 hard panned L&R.

I did just notice I grabbed a set of trs cables instead of tr for my test yesterday.

I will retest tonight after work using the above suggestions.Again thanks for the replies.

 

Don't feel bad, It's not for everyone. I too got one a couple weeks back and I'm sending it back to sweetwater. I don't like the sound at all and I have a CP4 running through it. I've done a lot of moving it around, eq'ing and making sure all the gain staging was correct. I just could not get used to the sound. Sticking with my stereo setup of QSC K10s. Sucks that I'm out about $50 shipping but it is what it is and I don't doubt that people obviously love this thing, I just could not get used to the sound.

[Ledbetter]

It's definitely not for everyone. I kept mine for very small venues after buying it for $599 before it got popular. Here are some impressions:

 

It now costs $750 AND requires a supplemental mixer and subwoofer to be usable for most players.

It's not good for reproducing frequncies below 100hz, which is about 1-1/3 octaves below middle C.

Having a stereo monitor onstage and sending mono (through the sub out) to FOH is backwards.

The main 8" speaker is undersized for many applications.

Unless it's placed 20' or so from the player, everyone else hears something different than the artist. This also makes tone adjustments inconvenient.

It's not stereo, it's "3D," which is not at all the same thing.

Players are finding they must alter their programs/patches for the SS3 to sound good. What then is the effect of the alterations on FOH sound?

 

Prospective purchasers should bear these things in mind. I don't mean to offend, but this is my take on the product.

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

It almost sounds to me like it's only getting one side, which I think would automatically push everything out the side speaker

 

Actually this would push everything out the front speaker (unless you're wondering if one of his two cables is sending no signal).

[Danny Linguini]

It almost sounds to me like it's only getting one side, which I think would automatically push everything out the side speaker

 

Actually this would push everything out the front speaker (unless you're wondering if one of his two cables is sending no signal).

Yep, that's what I mean -- one cable could be dead (I've had it happen more than I'd expect, even on new cables). Front speaker gets what's common between R & L, and the side speaker gets what's different between R & L. If there's only one line coming in, there can't possibly be any commonality between R & L, which means it should go to the side speaker.

[Doug Robinson]

"It now costs $750 AND requires a supplemental mixer and subwoofer to be usable for most players."

 

 

Why would I need a mixer or a subwoofer? I don't get it. Is it really your impression that "most" of us who use it are using mixers and subwoofers? I've only used a mixer when I had two keyboards, or in the situation I describe below.

 

 

"Having a stereo monitor onstage and sending mono (through the sub out) to FOH is backwards."

 

 

There's a really good argument to have a stereo monitor onstage, imo--it makes me play better to really hear what my keys sound like, not to mention that it's great for the rest of the band unless they are 100% reliant on hearing you through their own monitors. When we talked about FOH, it seemed like the prevailing opinion was that most FOH guys wanted a mono feed anyway but I did play with a sound guy once who wanted a stereo feed so I used a small mixer in that case, and send him stereo outs. Most of the time, however, I take care of my own sound onstage and the SS3 is plenty loud enough for my two blues/rock bands, as well as jazz gigs. I love being self-contained.

 

 

"Unless it's placed 20' or so from the player, everyone else hears something different than the artist. This also makes tone adjustments inconvenient."

 

 

I feel this is quite an exaggeration. I like having it 4-6 feet away. I'm pretty comfortable with the amp by now and I usually set it up, test it and leave it for the evening. It does help that I tend to play the same 4 or 5 clubs for the most part lately. But you know, standing next to any amp, you will hear something different than someone in the back of the room, I guess. I'm not sure that's a drawback or even avoidable--the times I've run through FOH (pre-SS3) I usually couldn't stand my sound in the monitors and I actually hoped the audience heard something different.

 

For me, the biggest drawback is the side-firing speaker is aggressive, and if you position it in the upright position, whoever is playing to the amp's side gets an earful unless it's positioned behind everyone--but lots of stages just aren't that deep. One solution is to place the amp horizontally, angled up a bit. Totally solves that problem and doesn't impact the sound imo.

 

Please understand--I just played two gigs in a row the last two nights, and the SS3 performed perfectly. The first was easy to throw sound around: a tiny theater (90 seats) with an improv comedy troupe. I had the amp upright but angled to my right only about 2 feet away but volume was so low that it wasn't a problem for anyone.

 

The second gig, last night, was in a far-too-large-and-loud restaurant/bar with about 100 people. The amp was on it's side this time, about 4' behind me and angled up. I had musician friends sitting in the back at the bar and they said I was crystal clear and full-sounding. The guitarist's Twin Reverb was on the other side of the stage and whoever sat in front of it got an earful according to them, but my sound seemed to come from both sides of the stage. Drummer only had his kick in the P.A.; large GK bass amp was turned up too high; vocalist went through the P.A. Everyone onstage could hear me and we tore the joint up.

 

Maybe it would have been fun to use a sub--I went through a couple of gigs using a small bass amp in lieu of a sub which was interesting but really not necessary so I stopped bringing it. But I can't imagine anyone saying that my rig was not 'usable' last night due to lack of a sub or a mixer.

 

 

"It's not stereo, it's "3D," which is not at all the same thing."

 

 

This I totally agree with--I think 3D is a far better term to describe the resulting sound.

[elif]

It almost sounds to me like it's only getting one side, which I think would automatically push everything out the side speaker

 

Actually this would push everything out the front speaker (unless you're wondering if one of his two cables is sending no signal).

Yep, that's what I mean -- one cable could be dead (I've had it happen more than I'd expect, even on new cables). Front speaker gets what's common between R & L, and the side speaker gets what's different between R & L. If there's only one line coming in, there can't possibly be any commonality between R & L, which means it should go to the side speaker.

 

Mid = L+R so if L is dead, mid = 0+R = R.

Side = L-R so if L is dead, side = 0-R = -R (- means the phase is inverted).

 

Hence the same signal would go to both, depending on mix level and which was dead, L or R.

[cphollis]

Not everyone's cup of tea, but certainly mine

[cedar]

Last night, I got some evidence of the "blooming effect."

 

I did a jazz organ gig (me on a Mojo, with guitar and drums). My wife told me that she heard me more clearly when she was seated about 30 feet away, then when she was a few feet from the stage. Ordinarily, I would assume that the volume mix just changed from tune to tune, but perhaps it really was attributable to the "blooming" quality of the SS.

[Tombsalley]

I just played a gig last night with my SS and a small ev sub.

I have mixed reviews on which I like best my yamaha dxr10 and ev subs

Or this. I know the Yamis are going to give me more power over all

And can push further. Non the less. One thing I noticed is i have to

Put the SS volume up to push enough sound to the back of an

Open outdoor gig. I had the SS placed directly on top on the sub.

The stage is raised but, I wonder if the SS needs to be up

More. Here's why, I noticed people mid to back of area are fine with the sound

But, up front there plugging there ears! I know it's claimed to not do this

But, that's what happened. So, has anyone extended or raised the SS

Up more like a traditional speaker for live sound? as a pa not a keyboard amp.

??

[Tombsalley]

Also, would tilting it up somehow have the Same effect?

[Tombsalley]

Anyone? On the above. I am contemplating of ridding one system or the other,I'm separated from a 21 year marriage and I could use the funds but, I'm torn on selling either really

But,if I have to: I need to challenge the benefits.

[HammondDave]

Everyone is sleeping off last night's gigs... It all depends on your situation. I think popular opinion is that some may need different amps for different situations. Don't expect anything but a high powered amp/speaker system to be sufficient for a large outdoor concert without some FOH help. As Aspen says, the SS does much better when there are walls involved to bounce the sound around. Outdoor gigs have no walls (unless you are playing Red Rocks, but that's another story).

 

Regarding people in the front who may think it's too loud, then they should move back. You would get that with any speaker system.

[Aspen]

Don't know if I'm doing something wrong or if everyone on this forum likes to sound like an AM radio?

I normally use powered PA speakers. Very clear clean sound

 

Hi Don, this is a most unusual reaction to say the least, so as I read it, there are 2 possibilities;

 

1) You are doing something wrong, many here have chimed in, but basically if your KB is stereo, and you have good cables (try substitutions), and you have the Width, MK and HF set around noon...the SS3 should sound VERY clear and clean, plus have a great kinda 3D style stereo dimension. It is best to judge it 5-7 feet away, and off axis, so you can hear the Font and Side speaker blended.

 

2) You have a faulty unit, this is rare but it happens...I do not check every speaker (but the factory does). But nothing is 100%, and some slip thru QA and/or can become damaged in transit. Best way to check this is play a CD that you know thru the SS3, just for a known reference. Then start with all 4 level controls (for the 4 amps in a SS3) fully off. Then bring up the Level to about noon, this should activate the 8" woofer...it will sound muffled (that's normal). Next bring up the MF to max so you can hear it and be sure it's working...then back it off to noon. Next the same for the HF, fully on so you can hear the Hi Hats, and back it off to noon. Last turn up the Width (the side speaker) and again to max so it will sound way too "much" (but at least you know it's working) and then back it off to noon. This is a basic test to be sure all 4 amps and speaker components are working well.

 

If you hear a good level reaction from all 4, and it still sounds weird, leave it as is w/ the CD playing and try unplugging just the Left cable jack, then plug it back in and unplug the Right input signal. With either side of the CPS sum/difference network disconnected, you will interrupt the balance of the stereo signal and the SS3 will collapse to mono and weaken the signal...but also it will sound weird. But, it should be a similar level drop both ways. If you hear no big difference b/w the level drop (in otherwirs a similar result), then every thing wold seem to be OK with the CPS network. But if the L or R seems "stronger" in level, that indicates an unbalanced signal to the CPS matrix... usually caused by a poor quality connection....so try substitution.

 

If nothing seems to help, and it still sounds like "an AM radio", then I am pretty sure you have a faulty unit. In that case, and before you send that unit back to SW, please let me send you an advance replacement, and after you get it I'll take yours back here for research (I want to know what happened as much as you do). I will pay UPS shipping both ways..so no out of pocket for you.

 

Then If you still do not like your SS3 replacement, you can always return it to SW for full credit and I'll pay your return freight.

 

I am pretty sure there is something wrong here. My SS3 is a pretty darn good sounding powered monitor...I use it for playing background music at out APR studio parties all the time and folks love it. It defiantly does NOT sound like an AM radio! If you'd like to discuss this more, just PM me here and if needed I'll get your shipping address.

 

[HammondDave]

Now THAT's what I call Customer Service!

[TimA]

Now THAT's what I call Customer Service!

Ummm.......ditto!!

[Dglavko]

Actually I think it does kind of sound like an AM radio when only the side speaker is used. My bet is a bad cable or mono signal input.

[Brettymike]

I think it would more likely be the keys player on the front end making it sound crook

Brett

[Don Headley]

WOW !!

I had a busy weekend (self employed) so this is the first time I've checked in here.

Thank you Aspen for the personal response.

 

Talk about frist class customer service !!

 

I did have a chance to try using my TR cables from the mixer to SS3. I followed the recommended setup on the CPS site.

I think I may be expecting more than this speaker can deliver.

 

As I've stated before I'm using a pair of powered PA's with 12's. As I was testing I managed to get a room filling sound. But, the sound was not a complete representation of the entire sound spectrum. It was missing the high synth filter resonance and of course the low bottom end that my 12's reproduce. On tw organ the leslie sounds like mush.

I can say without a doubt this thing can get loud though !!

 

So far I've been using a Fantom X6 for testing. I will switch setups and try my Kronos2 and the above recommendations. I'll post my results when finished.

Again thanks for all the suggestions and, thank you Aspen for the personal response.

[Brettymike]

^^^ It sounds like you play at a blistering 125db I would guess.

Brett

[MotiDave]

that is some great service.

[Doerfler]

On tw organ the leslie sounds like mush.

 

try increasing the stereo spread for the leslie sim, and yes, you are going to miss some bottom end that you are used to from the organ sounds. This is normal for the SS3.

[Aspen]

I had the SS placed directly on top on the sub. The stage is raised but, I wonder if the SS needs to be up

More. ....I noticed people mid to back of area are fine with the sound.

But, up front there plugging there ears! I know it's claimed to not do this but, that's what happened. So, has anyone extended or raised the SS Up more like a traditional speaker for live sound? as a pa not a keyboard amp.

??

Tom, reading your message here, I wanted to chime in; I remind everyone that the SS3 is NOT a traditional speaker (thankfully) so traditional pole mounting or raised positions may not have the same benefit, and they can actually be a detriment in some cases (like yours apparently). But the solution may not have been to raise it more, but instead return it to the floor and tilt it for more projection (if actually needed).

 

Just because you have a sub, and therefore do not "need" the floor LF coupling that increases the bass response of a SS3, it does not mean you can also elevate the SS3 without losing something more.

 

As I have mentioned MANY times; leave the SS3 on the floor, or at least very close to the floor on that amp stand when using it horizontally (as was recently discussed several episodes back in the current season. (see DB's photos and comments on this technique he sometimes uses).

 

The reason is the Side speaker really needs a strong and close reflective surface...and frankly IMHO it just sounds better on the floor. Raising it up on that sub to "front row ear level" changes everything, and it is understandable that those folks sitting front row and on axis to the Front speaker may have been overpowered taking an unreflected a direct hit (and because the side speaker is raised off the floor, there would be less Side speaker influence too). That problem positioning is not unlike the typical L&R club PA speakers have; killing the first rows of the audience that sit on either side (as Hammond Dave mentions in his reply to you).

 

Of course your wife and the rest of the audience get a more diffused SS3, so it sounds great most everywhere else...like a good L&R PA does too.

 

Therefore if you are running a sub, I suggest you try placing the SS3 back on the floor in front of the sub. And for those outdoor gigs when you need more projection, try a small wedge in the front of it to tilt it back, or even better just leaning it back on the sub would work well too.

 

For more outdoor projection (and increased "bloom") some guys have made "corners" out of two upright guitar cases set at right angles behind the SS3, or some guys have fashioned a couple of small panels taped together (just high enough for the side speaker, maybe 12" high and 18" wide) to form a "V" corner placed behind the SS3. (See Season 3, Episode 4...maybe 50-60 pages ago)

 

Remember, when placed on the ground, against a wall or best in a corner the SS3 improves it's natural efficiency and balanced 3D stereo image. With it's Center Point coax speaker and CPS technology, the SS3 can achieve a 300 degree dispersion like a light bulb; gently filling the room with sound but not killing anyone's ears. But lifting it up, or pole mounting will decrease that effect (but some do like it on a pole, and have commented as such here in this forum...so this is a mater of taste too)

 

But conventional PA cabs w/ radial horns act more like beamy flashlights; most of their SPL power is focused directly in front (on axis). So they are typically piercingly loud directly in front, but their energy falls off quickly to either side. They do have throw, and they are louder on axis, but as compared to a SS3 they lack the ability to "fill" the left and right of the audience sitting up close, they lack "balance", and of course...they are usually run in mono (for obvious reasons).

 

Also more importantly for KB Players and other performers who have a stereo instrument to reproduce; traditional stereo PA cabs are not able to reproduce a stereo image except for a VERY small "sweet spot" where their flashlite like beams first meet. But on the down side, they produce a much larger "sour spot".

 

On the contrary the SS3, when properly positioned, will produce an even sound level everywhere in the room, and a powerful 3D stereo type of image that will be consistent no matter where you are sitting, will never "collapse" and it will have no "sour spots".

 

Of course positioning of the SS3 is going to be different than conventional speakers you may be accustomed to using. So quite naturally there is going to be a small learning curve. But you may find the results will be most rewarding for you, and your audience who will (for the first time) actually hear what you stereo patches can sound like in a live performance; just like the record!

 

Just my 2 cent opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it.