My First Time On Organ!

[TrapperJack]

I have already shot off my best canon on lh bass: have you been to the thread I posted above?

 

Your left hand bass range will cover about two octaves, not one. The published blues and other bass lines will show you how this works in a range of keys.

 

One octave stuff really limits you to basic patterns, very vanilla, but just under two octaves opens up, (frees) the bass line to breath and groove in a vast range of idiomatic ways,

[spazzkey]

thanks to jazz+ and 16521 for posting those clips!!

always an eye opener and something to learn -

[Jazzwee]

Trap, my knowledge of Piano walking bass lines are most long patterns covering up to 2 octaves. So I'm already familiar with that.

 

But this causes groove problems for me because it's too complex.

 

I think the idea of pulling back to smaller intervals (5ths) and simplified patterns is good to solidify basics.

 

A long time ago, I learned walking bass lines from a teacher who had me transcribe some Coltrane tunes. A lot of the bass lines I learned were of the chromatic nature. I don't see a lot of chromatic patterns being used in organ. Fingering and such is more difficult and the hands move around much more.

 

As I applied this to organ, I can see it wasn't working for me. Wasn't working for me on piano either.

 

I can do these patterns easily on Blues but put some tune like Stella in front of me and I'm hesitating too much.

 

For starters, aren't 1-5 patterns easier since you don't have to pay attention to chord quality? Just think of the root and you're done. Then once skill has been established, I can expand.

 

I just think that groove is the more important immediate goal.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

Years ago when I first started playing LH bass I focused on trying to play like a real bass player and I still do that now. Trapper is right if you're going to do that you need two full octaves. But, my hand independence has never been good enough to do that and still take a screaming solo. Lately I've been trying to play simpler bass to free up my RH but it's difficult because it's been so ingrained in my head to play bass like I have been for 30 years.

 

For your purposes keep it simple.

 

Just surfing around YT and found this awesome show by Barbara Dennerlein. All I can say is holy crap she is good and check out her gospel blues thing at the 14 minute mark. Good grief she just goes off on this and shows every possible way to manipulate the drawbars and everything else. Oh, and she can play a little bass too.

 

 

Bob

[WesG]

You're already a much better player than I, so I don't really have any specific ideas to share -- but I would encourage you to explore the bass foldback on your organ, and listen to how the folded back tones offer the possibility of generating extra timbral interest; this may allow you to play simpler lines and groove harder.

 

If you are not familiar with bass foldback, play some two octave scales with a single low drawbar (eg 16') pulled at the left hand side of the manual. Surprise!

 

Wes

[Jazzwee]

Hey thanks for the compliment Wes.

 

Right now I feel frustrated. I was playing all day and it's really hard to be precise with the articulation on this. It became more obvious with percussion on because I clearly waver between detached and legato and it sounds awful.

 

I switch to piano to make sure it's not some general problem and I can confirm that it's on organ. I'm used to listening to the precise attack of a piano. I'm not getting an accurate triggering of the organ sound.

 

I was going to post a recording but I was most displeased with the time. So will have to woodshed more.

 

[WesG]

Have you thought about going back to basics with the swell manual, using percussion?

 

Play scales, arpeggios, thirds. Legato, staccato. Then thirds in eight notes, with the beats legato and the off beats legato. Then vice-versa.

 

You have plenty of manual dexterity, but I would venture to guess that you have not trained your brain in exactly this technique, as it only applies to organ. If you are not a horn player, it is very likely you have not even *thought* of articulation in the same way.

 

So, playing scales, arepeggios, and thirds, is simply a way to train your brain into making that firm association between your fingers and ears for this new style of playing. Change tempos. Different tempos will sound different.

 

Have you ever tried transcribing horn lines and playing them on organ, complete with horn-like articulation? Jimmy Smith used to listen to Bird and try and play his parts. For me, the biggest single difference with organ and piano is that on organ, you have much more control over when the note ends. I really dig that, probably because I'm a retired sax player. I love long notes. I love being able to put VERY precises spaces between them, no matter how long they are. I also use my tremolo switch like a horn player at times. "Yaaaaaaaaaaayayayayaaaaa". So fast the drum barely moves.

 

Short, fast, notes seem to me to be the hallmark of many pianists..and some organists like Joey D. But man, you need to embrace the note...the body of the note..itself. Long notes are great. You can explore just one note if you want. Nobody in the audience is counting how many you play.

 

Use the percussion's single-trigger to your advantage. You can play your legato notes with a different timbre than staccato notes, and get your tenuto notes somewhere in between.

 

You can "crawl" and let the percussion decay with the held note (usually held with your pinky) while you play inside with your other fingers.

 

And don't play just fast percussion. Play slow, too. You can also change how much the timbre changes of the held notes as the percussion envelope decays...by varying the amount of drawbar pulled for the harmonic that matches the percussion harmonic.

 

Finally, make sure you listen to Dr. Lonnie Smith. That guy really gets Hammond timbre.

 

Hey. I always thought this would be awesome on organ --

[Jazzwee]

That's some great advice Wes. I never thought about going back to basics. Like Hanon on Organ.

 

Part of this is the ear. I'm basing my timing reactions to the attack point on piano. I think my ear is a little confused because I hear the release sound and it throws me off slightly.

 

I recorded myself for a long period and my piano timing is much much better so it's not an issue of raw technique. It sounds more like I'm listening to the wrong reference point.

 

Also, when playing piano, you can listen to the rhythm section in the cracks. Because apparently I'm playing too many notes and with no drop in volume, I can't hear the cracks.

 

This is a more basic issue than bass lines, etc.

 

Now there is something I did yesterday to guide me. I played along with Larry Goldings. That's when I realized that I need to space it differently. I even found that I'm playing on octave too high.

 

I'm getting comfortable with the percussion and can go between that and sustained now. But it's just the timing issue that has to be resolved.

 

[WesG]

Something to keep in mind, some of Larry Goldings' recordings were done on a C2 with a Trek-II percussion kit installed that will let you get 5th harmonic percussion, which is not possible on a stock console, and probably not on any clonewheel. 5th harmonic means that the "ping" is two octaves and a major 3rd above the note played.

 

Playing in the "cracks" is also pretty different on organ. Too many notes can be a problem, but you can make that a strength, too -- more notes in the right hand means more volume and hence is a way to accent part of phrase. That is sometimes used like a horn player uses growling (when the player hums while blowing the reed).

 

One thing to try is to play chord stabs with the right hand by dropping it from the upper to the lower manual real quick. You're a couple of octaves above your bass line with those stabs, and they have a gentler registration (and no percussion), so it works. The more upper drawbars you pull, the more a given registration pulls to the forefront. Going from 888 to 8888 is a big change, that nasal quality you add really makes the part stand out....which is why Jimmy uses few drawbars (variations on 868, 0086, etc, to my ear) in the left hand a lot. Add a bit of 1', and the part will really cut...so leave the 1' off for jazz comping...but explore it for leads!

 

So what I was talking about with the manual drop, you get like, dum-dum-dum-dum-doo-doo-dum-dum left hand going..then the right goes ba-doodlooloolooee-op *whop whop* deeeeeeee-eedle-eedle-eedle-dum *whop whop* ... where the "whop whop" happens on the right hand, on the lower manual, as the right hand pauses on the upper manual, where a horn player would be taking a breath.

 

Wes

[Jazzwee]

 

So what I was talking about with the manual drop, you get like, dum-dum-dum-dum-doo-doo-dum-dum left hand going..then the right goes ba-doodlooloolooee-op *whop whop* deeeeeeee-eedle-eedle-eedle-dum *whop whop* ... where the "whop whop" happens on the right hand, on the lower manual, as the right hand pauses on the upper manual, where a horn player would be taking a breath.

 

Wes

 

Love that scat description LOL! I can practically hear it!

 

Comping between the cracks is the same on piano. But I have to say it's really weird on a split keyboard where my LH is so far away to the left. Feels unnatural.

 

But I guess I have to deal with that until I can afford to get a dual manual clonewheel one day.

 

I'm not sure what the effect of Larry Golding's percussion setting is. I'm not at that level of understanding yet. Will have to listen while I'm on the Electro.

 

There's no hope of fitting the real organ in my house...

 

 

 

[nadroj]

By no means an organ player, but for the first time ever I've just thought "Damn, I need drawbars here." Transcribing parts of a solo, and it's stupidly frustrating not being able to replicate the change in tone as the solo builds. FA06 has drawbars, but can't really use them live.

 

Hello, GAS...

[Jazzwee]

By no means an organ player, but for the first time ever I've just thought "Damn, I need drawbars here." Transcribing parts of a solo, and it's stupidly frustrating not being able to replicate the change in tone as the solo builds. FA06 has drawbars, but can't really use them live.

 

Hello, GAS...

 

Hahaha. That's how it starts! And now look at me...

 

I'll even do some organ on a gig in a couple of days. We'll see if I embarass myself.

[Jazzwee]

The saga continues! I'm on my third week as an organ "newbie" and I decided to play organ on a gig tonight.

 

Mr. PC (Excerpt - just a 2 minute excerpt since it was very long)

https://app.box.com/s/ygkdd2fgrj01fz1gsey2

 

My own thoughts -- due to the crowd noise, I found it was very hard to hear the organ when I'm playing low notes. Probably less notes would be more effective. I had many issues with the LH comping due to confusing splits and octaves. Either I played the comping too loud or just laid out so I don't have issues. I still have more shedding to do on articulation.

 

I'm also wondering how differently I would play if the keys weren't weighted. In some ways I'm still playing the instrument like a piano (with arm weight). I presume an organist relies on the finger more.

 

Overall, the crowd liked organ. Sometimes, I had a problem getting the sound to cut through. But this could have been solved by EQ now that I'm listening to it. The reverb was excessive as well.

 

 

[MoodyBluesKeys]

Playing it on real gigs will definitely speed your progress (and cause some angst during the process). Each clone is different, the Electro 3 was like that - the lower notes came out without a lot of force, but the high end screamed. That is one place where I used the expression pedal to get a bit of boost. A monitor close enough to hear even with the crowd is important.

 

Think of it this way: the guitar solo part was mostly single notes - that's OK also with the organ. You would play differently if the keys weren't weighted - I CAN use my PC3X for organ, but the PC361 is a lot easier, especially for any lengthy playing.

 

My first organ clone was Native Instrument B4 going through a notebook. I found a lot of variation note to note in the higher notes on volume - maybe it was my setup. Also, changing drawbars using a bunch of separate knobs on a MIDI controller did not work well in live playing. However, it did CUT through. I love the sound of VB3 - but haven't been able to get it to cut as well. The Electro 3 was a big improvement when I got it, but I never could really get into the drawbuttons.

 

The PC3 Hammond sound - some of them cut through well. I'm still not satisfied with the fast Leslie, although it has improved. I am advertising one of the PC3's with the thought of getting an SK1, just for the Hammond sound and feel. I can't really justify adding an additional keyboard (I'd need to look like one of those Hindu statues with eight arms to play all the keyboards I have now).

 

OTOH, I played probably over 1,000 different real Hammond tonewheels over the years to test when I finished working on them (I did organ/musical electronic repair professionally for over 25 years). Out of all those Hammonds, only 5% or so really were the absolute prime in their sound.

 

I still believe that you will change out what you are using within the next year or two. No great rush - each additional thing you make your own during the time will help point you in the direction of what will work best for you. I haven't really found ANY one board that does it all.

[TrapperJack]

Yes, indeed, to that, MoodyBluesKeys.

 

Jazzwee, keep going, and keep looking around.

[Jazzmammal]

Roberto, that sounds pretty good to me man, you're cookin. Sure I can hear where you're fumbling around a bit in the beginning of your solo but you got into it and then you got the crowd going. That's how it works and for some reason people respond to those fast licks on organ more than they do on piano. Playing jazz or rock organ will become addicting, trust me. People love it including other players.

 

In the beginning during the guitar head your comps are too choppy, you sound like a pianist trying to play organ. Yes, I know . Sustain the chords more and when that sounds too much you modulate it with the expression pedal and voicing movement. Example, you know about the 3-7 shell movement. You can do that up and down chromatically behind the guitar without taking your fingers off the keys. Slide them around up and down. Of course you don't do that for a whole verse, but throw that in for two bars before the IV chord and you'll hear how it sounds. Also, turn the percussion off for the comps.

 

Here's the other thing about comping. If you have a guitarist forget your left hand during your solo just rest it next to the leslie switch or the drawbars, you only comp when he's soloing but then you can do that with your right anyway.

 

All this advice we've been giving you about comping, LH bass, splits, using two keyboards and all that is for you to practice proper organ technique at home, you don't need it at a gig like this one. For this gig a single keyboard is fine. If in the future you decide to book a gig with you playing bass, then you need to know all that and consider bringing two boards if you haven't picked up a dual manual organ by then.

 

Bob

[Jazzwee]

I've got a lot of questions following this gig so I'll just bring up a few at a time. I appreciate all the great advice so far. Thanks for the specific comments Moody and Bob.

 

First question was hearing myself. Many posts here say do 808000000 888000000. I think though that the room acoustics has to come into play. I probably need more mids to cut through the mix. Correct? I have to adjust to the room. That's my instinctive reaction in retrospect. I was told I didn't have the punch in the lower registers. I realize I could adjust some of it via expression pedal but it wasn't cutting still when I practiced at home.

 

Given that I'm not playing bass anyway, I probably need to rethink what I do with the hands. Clearly comping myself is not called for so I might as well use two hands for some thicker textures. This means, it may be better to cut out the split. Those of you with XK1c's obviously use only one manual (I would think).

 

Doing a split is not all that useful in retrospect if I'm not using LH bass.

 

BTW I know I have to integrate more of the thirds textures into the style as expected of organ but I wasn't ready for that yet. Maybe next month.

 

I wasn't hearing the comping style of just sustaining the chords Bob. I relistened to Larry Goldings and apparently he was switching between the piano style comping and the sustained chords. Learned something completely new.

 

Syncopation seems to be used a lot more in organ style than in piano so a change in thinking is required there too.

 

Given the crowd reactions, I would say that if I can cover all the tunes in organ eventually, I could justify going completely dual manual. I actually played piano only twice during the entire gig.

 

It's still quite distracting to play organ (when you're not good at it) so I'm sure I'm not playing as well as I am able on piano. But the crowd got me motivated to continue so this is proving to be a good move!

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I think adding some higher pitches by judicious use of the middle drawbars would help. One of the first things I had to learn when I started playing with a group instead of by myself was to play less. The next thing was that patches that sounded great in my studio in pristine silence just plain weren't heard in the group. The patches that gave me a chance to be heard in the group sounded rough in the silence of the studio. And ALWAYS modify the sounds to accommodate the room (which will be different once filled with people than at sound check).

 

Someone on here had a sig line that read something like they learned more when playing a gig with some players a bit above their level in one set than they learned practicing by themselves in a week.

 

Motivation from the crowd helps a lot too. I don't get that much feedback in the church while playing, but members' comments after the service do really help me feel good about what I'm playing (most of the time).

 

Syncopation - my feeling - piano is basically a solo instrument, although it can also be used in a rhythm section. Organ (at least two manual organ) is both at the same time - one can be soloing with one hand and rhythm with the other - so syncopation does enter in more. The process of developing hand independence is important in both, but there are enough subtle differences (and some not as subtle) that expertise in one does not immediately transfer. However, expertise in one should result in the other being easier to gain.

 

As you are seeing, organ can be a lot of fun. The musicians who seem to wind up most financially successful are not the ones that have the most technical command, but the ones with the most showmanship. I wasn't there for your gig, but I'm betting that the audience picked up on you having a good time doing the playing, even though your internal thought was on overcoming your distractions. (Liberace was skilled, but probably not to the level of Horowitz. Liberace was a consummate professional in showing the audience a good time).

 

[Jazzmammal]

You're getting there my friend, you're picking this up pretty fast. Drawbars are the heart of the Hammond sound, it's an organists built in EQ for room acoustics. If you think the sound is buried or a bit muddy you can try backing off the 16' (first drawbar on the left) a couple of notches rather than pulling out a mid range one or perhaps a bit of both. Good players are changing settings all the time either with the drawbars themselves or using presets.

 

The thing to remember is to know all the ways to change the sound and volume of a Hammond. First is the drawbars alone playing a straight sound with no chorus, percussion or leslie. Pulling out the drawbars not only increases the volume it also increases the freq range and makes it easier to hear. Next is the chorus. The chorus adds not only the effect itself that again grabs the ear it also adds some subtle overtones to the sound. Next is the percussion. That adds the pop to the sound, again more sound, more volume without changing the overall power from the pedal or master volume. Finally is the leslie. That's the big kahuna of a Hammond sound. Be aware of each one of these while you're playing.

 

Most comps are just the drawbars nothing else. This is why when you see players on a real organ they're mostly comping on the lower manual with no percussion or chorus. When I said more sustain, I didn't mean all the time or even a lot, just some.

 

Check this out:

 

 

This is probably the most classic of the classic Jimmy Smith one of his best recordings. Starting at the 3:40 mark it's 15 minutes of comping, it sounds like he brought in all his friends for solos on this. Notice how he mixes in sustains with rhythm and how he will keep the same pattern going for one or two times through the tune then vary it slightly and keep that going for another full chorus or two then change again but with a different voicing. This just grooves it's ass off. A rookie player will think this is boring but it's not, it cooks. Don't make the mistake of bailing out on this 15 minute section too soon, he keeps changing it up, building it up stronger, and slightly faster. If you can learn how to do this behind a soloist you'll be very highly regarded. Don't worry about your own solos, that will come, focus on these comps.

 

Bob

[mate stubb]

Check this out:

 

 

This is probably the most classic of the classic Jimmy Smith one of his best recordings.

 

Watch him do it live for even more amazement.

 

[video:youtube]

[TrapperJack]

Again, I am amazed. I must have seen this video fifty times.

 

Just a couple of questions: 1) How many times did Jimmy Smith change his drawbars (or switch pre-sets he might have set up)? 2) While I have seen about five transcriptions of his bass figures, all different, I've never actually heard the bass line he plays, pedals or LH in this video. Does any forum member want to explain his lh technique in this video?

 

And a statement: While I know of several people who have received organ lessons from Jimmy Smith (or one organ lesson), I've never read anywhere, or seen a video, etc, where he actually talks about his technique, talks about the work he did in concrete terms. For example, he never discussed his lh bass craft, or his soloing, (in any detail). If anyone can refer me to a source, I would be pleased to follow it up, and to "correct myself". Thanks.

[mate stubb]

Jimmy was pretty guarded about spreading his technique around. He felt that he had come up with something new and everybody was copying him (which was true, of course.)

 

Jimmy McGriff was a protege of his, but later they fell out.

[Jazzwee]

Russell Malone has some Jimmy Smith stories here.

 

[video:youtube]

 

[Jazzwee]

Check this out:

 

 

This is probably the most classic of the classic Jimmy Smith one of his best recordings.

 

Watch him do it live for even more amazement.

 

[video:youtube]

 

Really studying this carefully! Thanks guys.

[TrapperJack]

Thanks, mate_stubb,

I enjoyed that Russell Malone video too. And we have quite a few such testimonies about their contact with Jimmy Smith in print and on video from good, honest people who should not be doubted ... but they are all incredibly general, like Russell's here.

 

Jimmie Smith solidified jazz B3 organ. He shaped it, more than anyone else, and this is widely acknowledged. I must have 50 CDs of Jimmy Smith, at least. But we all have to learn from sources like these. He directly shared, showed, taught, very little about his technique.

 

Unless there is stuff out there I have never heard about, read about, seen, immediately, myself, or via students, faculty, other musicians, organists, etc. I don't think so.

 

I wish there was.

[Jazzwee]

It's almost a month now and let's see where my progress has been.

 

All the Things You Are (Solo only to backing track)

https://app.box.com/s/irttut7zx79pvb26u5nc

 

Now doing anything complicated yet. I didn't even comp in this recording. Just making sure articulation is ok. Keeping the solos less dense. I think I'm comfortable with this part now so probably time to add in more organ specific effects on the next round.

 

 

 

[solpincus]

dave Limina has a good book on organ technique from BERKLEE PRESS . I with i had it back in the 60's .

[MoodyBluesKeys]

Definite progress, not too busy, interesting, and it sounds like you were smiling all the way through.

[Reverend Rhythm]

dave Limina has a good book on organ technique from BERKLEE PRESS . I with i had it back in the 60's .

This is one of my favorite things about this forum. A little nugget of information. I have these holes in my Hammond knowledge... some things I get, and some things I'm just plain missing. I bought the David Cohen Hammond DVD, and learned very little - some, but not much. It was more of an introduction. I need something more comprehensive, and here it is: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0634014331/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=117ROD26Z53&coliid=I3AD4R1L8QUKGG

[Jazzwee]

Definite progress, not too busy, interesting, and it sounds like you were smiling all the way through.

 

Thanks for the comments Moody! I was getting a little depressed after watching Cory Henry...

 

Man, those great players are so far away..

 

I have a jam tonight. I'll be playing organ all night. I'll experiment with some of the stuff that Cory Henry did.