My First Time On Organ!

[TrapperJack]

Lucky is a blues man, and we won't hold that against him: he can play a bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMgTp8UCj2I

 

PS You would expect a piano player adapting to B3 to be somewhat subtle with the pedal, especially in those standards he plays, old style. But his head is certainly in the right space. Brian used to have some videos up, too.

[jjo]

JW: An excellent local piano/organ player, Dan Trudell, told me it took a long time before he was comfortable moving back and forth. Seems like there may be short term issues, but in the long term it's possible to play both. Also hear Larry Goldings recently (with John Scofield) and he's a fantastic player on both.

[Reverend Rhythm]

I've been on this organ/ piano journey for almost a year, and I'm just now staring to see what I don't know about the organ. There are so many little techniques and tone colors that's easy to see how it is a life-long instrument. But it doesn't take a lot to get started... just go for it.

[WesG]

If you want to learn organ and can find a playable Hammond spinet (M3, M100, L100 in order of preference) with a proper Leslie (two rotors) ..... you will learn a lot of stuff quickly that you can then apply on a clonewheel. There really is a difference between playing an organ (or a spinet organ) and simulation thereof. Knowing the real deal helps with real chops.

 

I play piano and organ on my rock band gigs. I'm not worried about losing piano chops. But then again, I am not exactly the world's most accomplished player.

 

Something to note -- it is rare IME to need damper and expression pedal at the same time. I tend to over-use the damper anyhow. So I use my right foot for both, and reserve my left foot for bass pedals. I tried using a foot switch to change Leslie speeds and just could not get DOWN with it. Now I use either a paddle switch embedded in my lower left end block or a half moon switch near the F an octave and a half below middle C.

 

One thing I have thought about doing is repurposing a side kick switch, like those used 1970s home organs to turn the drum machine on, as secondary a damper, that I could learn to use while my foot is also on the expression pedal. Playing Yamaha pianos makes that easy to wire up, as the damper switches are "normally open", so I can just wire them in parallel.

[MorayM]

I'd been attempting to play various organ parts on a semi-weighted rompler for a few years before I actually played something with physical drawbars and two waterfall manuals. Suddenly, everything made complete sense, how the musicians I was trying to emulate were able to do what they did! I'll never forget the first sound that came out of it (once I'd worked out how to hook up the Leslie, start the motors, why there are 4 sets of drawbars and what the white-on-black keys are for) It was shortly after that that I realised quite how much I have to learn...

[Jim Alfredson]

What WesG and MorayM said. If you're serious about learning organ, you need to get at least an M3 or M100 or a real Hammond of some kind. Then things will make sense. Using those silly buttons on the Nord and playing on a weighted action is just going to be confusing until you get behind a real Hammond. Then you'll realize why the instrument is played how it is.

 

You should be able to find an M3 for $100.

 

The Keyboard Mag article is a good starting point. Is it a lifetime pursuit? Depends on where you're going and how much time you have to shed. Do you want to sound like Jimmy Smith? Then that's going to take several years at the least. Is piano your main axe and you just don't want to sound like a piano player trying to play organ? That will take some time, too but not as long as the first option.

 

The first thing you need to do is learn how to use the expression pedal. That is your dynamics.

 

Learn the drawbars (er buttons) and how they change the sound.

 

Learn when and where to switch the Leslie to fast and back again.

 

Thin out your voicings.

 

Listen to the masters. Emulate.

 

 

[vonnor]

I know how you feel JW. Like you, I've never considered myself an organist and likely never will. The most I ever did was left-hand padding over the guitar solos with 2/3 note voicings to keep the middle from falling out. Yesterday at rehearsal the guys called out Simple Man (Skynyrd). I'd never played it before but listened to it a million times.

 

Was really fun messing with expression and the speed footswitch, bringing the sound in and out around what the guitar player was doing. Like you said it's kinda rough having to think about all the mechanical things, but like any other technique I think it'll progress and smooth itself out the more I do it.

 

~ vonnor

[Reverend Rhythm]

Lucky is a blues man, and we won't hold that against him: he can play a bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMgTp8UCj2I

Wow! I'd be glad to be able to play like that!

[Jazzwee]

It's early, but my personal observation is that jazz piano is harder than jazz organ.

 

Thoughts?

[Theo Verelst]

I think to get good tones out of a Jazz organ is harder than to get some Jazz out of a piano, but the going from Jazz organ to Jazz piano I think is harder indeed.

 

T

[steve campito]

Being a Hammond player for more years than I can remember, there are two things that I try not to do. When it comes to drawbar settings, the room will dictate what to pull out and what to leave alone. The other members in the band will also dictate what to use for settings. There are starting points like 888000000 and go from there if you need more highs or whatever. Second, I never leave my foot on the swell pedal, it's too tempting to keep time with your foot and now you're getting a "wow" effect.

 

SK1 73,

Motif rack,

Jupiter 50,

Yamaha S700,

Voce v5+,

Roland A37,

Macbook Pro,

Logic,

numerous controllers,

QSC K12

[Jazzwee]

I think to get good tones out of a Jazz organ is harder than to get some Jazz out of a piano, but the going from Jazz organ to Jazz piano I think is harder indeed.

 

T

 

I beg to differ on that. I still don't know how Keith Jarrett gets those tones out of a piano.

 

Anyway, tone aside, at least the note selection issue does not need to be relearned. It seems less is more on organ in that respect.

 

The expressiveness of swell, leslie, and drawbars is definitely more of an ear thing with just the needed mechanical skills to execute quickly. A pianist though with ears focused on shaping lines and dynamics should be able to adapt since the thought process is the same.

 

Then there's the specific organ techniques like smears and such. Technically not difficult, but requiring one to know when to use it appropriately.

 

What's different though is that the training of fine motor movements and control in piano is more extreme. So this explains my worry about losing chops on piano and I don't have much as it is.

 

The advantage of organ for me in is that a jazz piano trio is really suited for a quiet environment. At loud venues, turning up the piano seems counterintuitive. It upsets the balance between the instruments. This is appealed to me originally.

 

Organ has a built in mellowness with the advantage of volume (to cut through the mix in noisy venues). It sounds really good when you build up to a screech.

 

The good news for organ playing is that as I get confidence, I get to play it immediately on current gigs. There seems to be a point where one can play it acceptably. No Jimmy Smith here, but at least comparable to EP playing.

 

Just my current thought...I could be wrong.

 

 

 

[Jazzwee]

Being a Hammond player for more years than I can remember, there are two things that I try not to do. When it comes to drawbar settings, the room will dictate what to pull out and what to leave alone. The other members in the band will also dictate what to use for settings. There are starting points like 888000000 and go from there if you need more highs or whatever. Second, I never leave my foot on the swell pedal, it's too tempting to keep time with your foot and now you're getting a "wow" effect.

 

Just so I understand this better Steve.

 

I can see that when I'm comping I obviously have to turn it down. I can use the swell or I've also used drawbars for that. In fact I set up a left comping split that has less volume (example 606000000). Is this the wrong approach vs. using swell? Of course I only have an NE4 -- not two manuals.

 

I use the swell to build up the solo. Does one think of swell in terms of several bars at a time or even a bar? A bar would require you to keep the foot on it. So you're indicating that it be used more sparsely.

 

[Jim Alfredson]

My foot is always on the expression pedal. You just need to learn when to use it and don't keep time with it.

[WesG]

You can use less drawbar pull to make one manual quieter. But you can also use fewer drawbars, or fewer notes!

 

Also, comping "tone" is not always as critical as lead tone, so you're more likely to use the preset keys when comping quietly. A lot presets use less pull than 8.

 

You can also use harmonic percussion to make your leads stand out. This works especially well on organs that have been modified to not drop the main tone volume when the percussion tablet has been engaged.

 

You can also simply use "better" registrations for the comping to not stand out as much, too.

 

Lots and lots of choices. You will understand these more and more as you understand the instrument. It really is important to understand how each tone makes its way to the power amp IMO. It is totally unlike any other instrument.

 

Wes

[RudyS]

My foot is always on the expression pedal. You just need to learn when to use it and don't keep time with it.

 

Hi Jim! you're back! it's been a while.

[Jazzwee]

My foot is always on the expression pedal. You just need to learn when to use it and don't keep time with it.

 

Jim, what's your guiding principle as to when to use it? I'm not sure anyone has articulated it other than "you'll know...".

 

 

[Jazzwee]

 

You can also use harmonic percussion to make your leads stand out. This works especially well on organs that have been modified to not drop the main tone volume when the percussion tablet has been engaged.

 

Wes

 

I'm not sure I understand this. From what I've gathered, draw bar 1" is tied to percussion.

 

Specific to the Nord Electro 4 though, this draw bar position is ignored for percussion (per the documentation), so now I'm unclear as to what to expect on a real B3.

[Threadslayer]

On the original B3 there was an attenuator which was switched in when percussion was selected. It was a simple one wire snip to remove it IIRC and then it rocked! One of the Hammond techs on here is sure to respond with details. The clonewheels typically allow you to adjust the percussion level - without cutting anything!

[Jim Alfredson]

My foot is always on the expression pedal. You just need to learn when to use it and don't keep time with it.

 

Jim, what's your guiding principle as to when to use it? I'm not sure anyone has articulated it other than "you'll know...".

 

 

Well... it's difficult to explain. It really is your main method of dynamic control. Listen to how Larry Goldings uses it during solos. That's my general approach. You can use it to accent certain notes, pull back at the end of phrases, push tensions within phrases, etc.

 

With chords, I tend to use it to add an almost pianistic quality to the chords. So I push it just a little to add some attack to the chords and then pull it back quickly to emulate a natural decay. I don't do this all the time. It depends on so many factors, it's not a hard and fast rule. But it can be very effective.

[Theo Verelst]

Maybe interesting for a little contemplation: just like the drawbars or equivalent can let you adapt to the space and the acoustics, with good musical feel and some practice, the swell-pedal can also be used to properly play with the listener space.

 

Of course a Rock-like performance with possibly crappy speakers isn't an easy place for this, but of course instrument control in this respect is important. The obvious error with the volume going back and forth is called "pumping", and is bad, because it makes the audience seasick.

 

T.

[JoJoB3]

It's early, but my personal observation is that jazz piano is harder than jazz organ.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Are you REALLY asking? Read: are you ready for the answer?

 

Post some playing on piano, then norgan please. Too many unknowns.

[JMcS]

From what I've gathered, draw bar 1" is tied to percussion.

 

...so now I'm unclear as to what to expect on a real B3.

 

On a vintage Hammond the Percussion circuit used the key contact for the 1' drawbar to trigger the percussion tone. When Percussion is on the 1' drawbar sound is silent. Often players would have the 1' drawbar pulled out some so that when they turned Percussion off the organ tone would also change more noticeably. Percussion is a single trigger event. When a key (or more than one key) is pressed the percussion ping is triggered. The tone has been described as hitting a wood block. Once percussion has been triggered it cannot be triggered again until all the keys that have been pressed have been released. While percussion can't be triggered more than once per press/release, if additional keys are pressed they will also have the percussion tone produced at its current level. Once percussion has fully faded out subsequent keys will have no percussion if pressed before the previously pressed key/s have been released. So there are two techniques to learn, one where notes are played so that one key is released before another is pressed so that every note has percussion and the second where a percussion tone is generated and then subsequent keys are pressed before the previous key is released so that a section of melody etc. has no percussion and then the last key is released so that the next phrase starts with emphasis.

 

Current Hammonds and many if not all clones have the ability to also have percussion trigger each time a key is pressed even if other keys are already being held down.

 

In addition, vintage Hammonds also had the drawbar tones drop a little in volume when Normal Percussion was on to give the percussion thwack more prominence. Hammonds (and others) have the ability to set that volume drop at one or two levels or not drop at all.

[Jim Alfredson]

 

In addition, vintage Hammonds also had the drawbar tones drop a little in volume when Normal Percussion was on to give the percussion thwack more prominence. Hammonds (and others) have the ability to set that volume drop at on or two levels or not drop at all.

 

McGriff and others modified their Hammonds to bypass that drop. It's nice you can do this on a per-patch basis on the Hammond digital organs. I've been trying to get the McGriff tone on my SK the last couple of days and I'm getting close using a combination of EQ / overdrive / the percussion mod.

 

[Jazzwee]

It's early, but my personal observation is that jazz piano is harder than jazz organ.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Are you REALLY asking? Read: are you for the answer?

 

Post some playing on piano, then norgan please. Too many unknowns.

 

You might think I'm purposely trolling, but I notice that the difference is in note by note control. Since on a piano you control each note separately, there's more physical control demanded. Unless I'm missing something here, you don't have to concern yourself with note-by-note control in organ. Plus of course the limitations of tonal balance which has to be done per manual as compared to adjusting it on a per finger basis on a chord.

 

Now this is a good thing as far as I'm concerned as getting that refinement to control each note like Keith Jarrett below is obviously beyond the reach of a lifetime for me.

 

Rhythmically, it seems both are equally complex in different ways. But the challenge of fast decay on piano and the corresponding thinness of the sound makes for a more complex challenge for the average piano player IMHO.

 

There's also the aspect of accuracy on the piano that's not required on organ moves.

 

Now this is not a commentary on which sound is better. I'm only talking about the physical skills needed to execute. Obviously, the less the physical skills required, the easier to reach an acceptable level of performance. Piano is like an unreachable goal sometimes. It takes so long to even sound acceptable.

 

[video:youtube]

[Jazzmammal]

Someone mentioned pulsing the swell to the beat before and I didn't like it when I tried it. Good thing I didn't make a habit of it.

 

This is because you're using the wrong expression pedal. Again, there's a lot to playing organ properly. There's several multi page threads here talking about the different exp pedals. The problem you probably had is the pedal you have is very short throw and then within the throw the velocity curve is way too fast. That means you barely move the pedal and the volume changes like 50% or more. A real Hammond pedal has something like 4-5" of throw and the curve is gentle. That allows the player to work the pedal and not get huge and uncool sounding volume swells. A proper pedal costs like $200 or so and is yet another thing purists will talk about. Without it you won't sound like a good B3 player. The average pedal you pick up at GC for $50 or something isn't designed for organ it's designed for expression with synths to work filter sweeps, wah wah, stuff like that. You might have better luck with an audio volume pedal. That goes in between the audio outputs of the keyboard to your amp but then again most of those don't have a proper long throw either.

 

There's all kinds of things a real B3 allows a player to do that you have to take into consideration if you're trying to play a basic synth keyboard like a real Hammond which is why people are saying you should go and find a cheap used real Hammond. I know that's not practical for you but the suggestion is a good one.

 

As for piano being harder to learn and play than a Hammond, not true. They're equally hard and completely different from one another.

 

Bob

[Jazzwee]

So the FC7 is the wrong kind of pedal?

 

And as far as the piano being harder (or not), I'm talking specifically about neuro-muscular control. From a "thinking" point of view (responding with the ear to shape the sound), I understand that both are equally complex but the response on one is controlling the machine, vs. controlling your own nervous system.

 

Again, I'm not speaking of this as if it were a negative. I'm just analyzing this as a positive because it becomes more attainable and not something you have to develop from 8 years of age.

[Jazzwee]

On the percussion, thanks Jim and JMcS! I will see how the NE4 handles it. I do recall a volume drop but percussion was one of the last things I tried to figure out.

[Jazzmammal]

The FC7 is a good pedal IF it's hooked up right with your keyboard. Here's Ashby's website:

 

http://music.ashbysolutions.com/misc.htm

 

They make this adapter for that pedal and they list the keyboards that need it. That list includes "older Clavia (Nord)". I don't know if that means yours or not.

 

That aside though the point is whatever pedal you're using you have to learn it, learn exactly how it changes the volume and make it work for you plus some keyboards have volume curve settings hidden in a menu while others don't.

 

Different pedals make this easier than others especially when a noob like yourself doesn't know how a real Hammond responds. It's a lot of work to emulate a Hammond. If your equipment doesn't do it then you can waste a lot of time watching videos of people playing a real B3 because your setup won't allow you to do some of what you're seeing and hearing. Watching those vids can still helpful because you can at least copy the phrases and licks.

 

Also, did you check out that vid that Trapper posted? Lucky is working the pedal all through it but it's fairly subtle. However at the 3:00 mark where he starts the fast repeating notes with his thumb and forefinger you can hear the volume wowing clearly and yes, he's doing it with the beat. Lots of cats do that, maybe not through an entire tune but they do it a lot it's just with a real Hammond the effect is not super strong, it sort of adds a subtle pulsing underneath the sound.

 

Bob

[jjo]

The piano may require more in the way of touch control, but playing jazz on a B3 requires each of the four limbs to be operating independently: right hand melody or chords, left hand bass, left foot bass pedals, right foot swell pedal. You don't need that kind of independence on piano, which is more like what drummers have to master. I think, Jazzwee, you're talking about playing single note lines or comping chords, alone, on an organ, which is only part of the picture. I saw Larry Goldings with Scofield recently, and the guy was like a orchestra; the trio sounded like a five person group. So many textures, grooves and effects on so many levels.