My First Time On Organ!

[Paul Harrison]

When you guys play LH bass, are you relying more on fixed patterns and concentrating on groove, or are you actually playing like a live bass player?

 

Functionally, I don't see any fundamental difference between playing bass on a keyboard versus on a double bass or a bass guitar. (Of course, there are some inherent differences in tone and phrasing, but we're only talking about the notes here.)

 

Whether I play a pattern or something looser depends mainly on what the song or section needs musically; e.g., for Billie Jean or the head of So What, All Blues, or Cantaloupe Island, I start off with their classic bass lines, then later when we start soloing, I move into looser and more improvised bass lines, although numbers with simple chord sequences often need just a few simple patterns, whereas numbers with more complex structures usually need bass lines that move around more.

 

However, as with any technique, the way to learn is to get some simple licks and patterns under your fingers, then start varying and extending them, and develop from there.

 

Eventually, independence grows between left-hand bass and right-hand chords & melody (or between feet and hands if playing bass on pedals), although I suspect that my brain works slightly differently while comping versus soloing. While comping, I am consciously aware of combining left-hand bass and right-hand chords to create a groove, whereas when soloing, I tend to focus on the melody that I am improvising in the right hand, and the bass line in the left hand or foot tends to become more independent, subconsciously following the chord sequence, although I remain aware of keeping up a rhythmic interaction between the bass and the rest of the rhythm section, and throwing in riffs and syncopations here and there to punctuate the groove and to keep the bass line varied and interesting.

[Jazzmammal]

...but any faltering on even a single note is bad for groove and the bass player is the groove master.

 

So do I simplify the bass line and create a fixed pattern at first? What's some recommended approaches.

 

Good job on Invitation. Excellent even considering it's your first effort. You're an organist now! One small comment, the left hand comp is too loud, push the drawbars in a little for the LH split.

 

Jimmy Smith said "the bass is the boss" so yes it comes first. I always try to play like a real bass player which can really mess me up during solos because I've never practiced making the bass patterns simple for that. I'm completely focused on trying to sound like a real bass player at all times.

 

What I do is simplify the solo not the bass. To me the bass is the most important thing so I completely agree with JS, "the bass is the boss". I just don't have the skill to keep a killer bass line going and at the same time do a blazing solo like the greats can. I'm always working with at least one other soloist like a sax or a sax and guitarist. Some tunes I cannot play bass and solo at all like Joy Spring for example. I won't solo on a tune like that, I just keep the bass and comp going and let them solo. Which is not a bad idea anyway, everybody does not have to solo on every tune.

 

Latin tunes are great to start for you to learn bass. It's basically a 1-5 with a samba feel. Pretty easy even for a beginner. As you said Invitation is tricky, so try a simple latin tune you've probably played for years like Little Sunflower or something and just lay down a basic 1-5 bass, play the chords only and get the feel for it. A jazz swing bass is much trickier but try working the left hand by itself with those backing tracks, it'll come.

 

Bob

[Theo Verelst]

I'll stick my neck out and post a recording on organ after one week. That's an iRealB on the backing track (meaning I am not playing bass).

 

Invitation

https://app.box.com/s/t5hw2aurjqlw04jivvz7

....

 

I think you did well, and of course can be your own judge about a lot of musical values, clearly not being a beginning musician.

 

I would like to give my opinion on the sound a little bit, and I seriously think that may be of some help. There's the "organ" sound+feel, which a lot of people know, and that requires a bit different idea than I have the impression comes out of the Nord (and most other synth machines), even if you'd change those few volume things, learn to be able to estimate the volume response curve and the, as it sounds to me, bit delayed effect it has. I mean an organ can sound lets say sweet or nicely full, but sound of the the Nord pieces on organ I've seen would appeal to, say nerdy teenagers or something, and maybe fit well in sort of an infantile or actual children's party, but not really as a machine that can rock and growl like a Hammond or produce controlled, powerful, harmonically strong tones like a good non-Hammond should.

 

I found this example on playing an "Organ" with capital O, even though it isn't perfect and probably a less practiced player than Jazzwee, it makes a great point about why organ playing is cool (I mean that; I'm not being cynical, I don't mind putting a few gospel songs of my own on youtube to prove I mean it):

 

[video:youtube]ACOkr_JOkos

 

On a bit of the other end of the spectrum, there's the fun with Hammonds and so on, like I've tried to imitate a bit a while ago (see this description page), when playing with a Kurzweil KB3 (mind you with strongly edited sounds) and Lexicon unit for Leslie+distortion, if you like a varied example: hammondpc3mx400_2.mp3 .

 

Both general types or organ make types of sounds and patterns that I and many can easily recognize. Those types of examples might make you not go a certain sound+control direction you may not like in the longer run.

 

T.

 

 

 

[Jazzwee]

Hey Bob, thanks for the encouraging words and glad you noticed the LH volume because I did too. I didn't use the split in this recording. Since I hadn't tried the tune beforehand, I didn't know where the split point might be.

 

In any case, on one of my presets, I thought that a good comping preset would be 606000000 or something along those lines. Surprised to find out that 008800000 works better (saw some YT video on it).

 

I've done LH bass on Bb and F blues for years so I can play bass on those while soloing. But I still slip a note once in a while because I try to actually improvise on it rather than just keep repeating a pattern. And that screws up the groove big time. Frustrating thing.

 

I suppose I can try something simple like Blue Bossa. I'm not able to concentrate on a swing tune like All the Things You Are.

 

The problem with learning LH bass is that I will one day want a dual manual...more costs

 

I watched some people on YT claim to be organ players with lots of videos but as far as I'm concerned, if one can't play a solid groove with the LH bass -- in the pocket -- than one is not ready for prime time. Knowing this, I will happily state I'm far from being an organ player!

 

 

[Jazzwee]

[video:youtube]ACOkr_JOkos

 

T.

 

 

Where did you find this? Invitation as played by the Phantom of the Opera! What are the chances that you find the same tune? LOL.

 

Speaking of tone, as a jazzer, you usually don't reinvent the wheel. I spent the last week listening to so many jazz organ players and I realized that stylistically, jazz players approach the organ differently than blues, rock, etc. I just tried to understand the differences and then see if I could implement it.

 

I don't know how it evolved this way. I'm just observing how it has been approached by the early jazzers. Maybe because jazz has a lot complex harmonies and a certain clarity was required, like jazz piano.

 

While I was playing Invitation, I played it with full clustered voicings like piano. I thought it didn't sound bad at all. No offensive overtones or anything. So I didn't follow an oft repeated instruction here which was to use less dense voicings. I could easily have taken notes out. I just felt I didn't need to.

 

 

[MoodyBluesKeys]

Much of the time, when comping, leaving the first two drawbars at zero is preferable - the reason being that they add lower bass muddiness to the comping chords (at least in the range where most of our left hands play). The third drawbar is the 8' which is the same pitch as a similarly placed piano note.

 

Of course this does not apply if one is actually playing LH bass instead of playing in a style where either bass is from pedals or a separate bass player; LH is playing comping chords, and RH is leading voices.

 

We had an outdoor service yesterday morning, and I carried the PC3 and a K10. I realized just how much I have gotten used to having two keyboards so I can easily do LH bass or going back and forth with two totally different sounds. Outdoor also doesn't help in that I had to remember where patches were located - can't see the display in direct sunlight. Also reminded me how much more the PC3 weighs than the Electro 3 I used to have. This time, I DID remember to bring a light color big towel to cover the keyboard except when I was actually playing. Those black keyboards get right finger-burnin' hot in direct sunlight.

 

My own approach to keyboard bass comes from playing an electric bass before I got into keys (actually changed due to hand cramps in my fretting hand). The mechanics are obviously different, but I THINK like a bass player - getting in tight with drums and any other rhythm instruments and keeping the groove going. I'll trade off a solo anytime to keep the groove. Besides, there is always a guitarist that really wants the solo anyhow.

 

[Theo Verelst]

Recently, someone had sponsored WBGO Jazz radio (I was a member a while) for a sufficient amount to bring his own records, and among the songs of choice were J. Smith ones I'd never heard, with very repetitive chord patterns, throughout the whole song, maybe to contrast with a pushy drummer or obnoxious wind player, I don't know, but he was sounding exactly right, even though he played pretty much the same through the whole song. I mean Jazz player make the rules if they're good enough, isn't it.

 

My point being he uses a sort of quasi-boring, but powerful and well-formed chord, and it works. Hammonds aren't really pure sine waves, but they allow a number of signature sounds which have a sort of hidden oomph to them, which is cool.

 

Before the Nord included drawbars I think, in '05 or so I was putting pure sinewaves in my synth prototype with 48/24 DAs, and that sound kicked but, even though it didn't sound as Hammond drawbars at all, the Nords has some sort of rounded sound, which is ok, but it's too weak for my taste.

 

The voicings sound good, but of course in every Jazz sense besides a "full out" intention, less is more us usually true. Doesn't bother me though.

 

Oh, and playing bass on organ and getting a "swing" is a discussion on it's own, like how will that sound ? I played organ pedals before, but a Hammond bass that swings is multi-interpretable, because you have to work to make it not boring (because of the tone wheel repetitiveness).

 

T.

 

[Jazzwee]

Besides, there is always a guitarist that really wants the solo anyhow.

 

LOL. Except as I've improved as a player, I now book ourselves as a trio... used to always have a guitar player.

 

I can just imagine the irony that the person who introduced me to organ was my bass player! Maybe his way of assuring his job security is giving me a smirk everytime he hears me play LH bass. I can just read his mind: "Too many notes!".

 

Given though the amount of time to develop the ability to be smooth on the LH bass and solidify that groove, is being more sparse acceptable in organ playing? (i.e. more repeated patterns). I'm thinking that I should be semi functional if the groove is solid and not so fancy with notes.

 

 

 

[Jazzwee]

This bass instruction is a lot simpler than I have been doing. Looks like he uses a pattern. Maybe I made the mistake of transcribing and practicing more complex bass lines.

 

EDIT - I also noticed he's playing the bass line detached. On piano, I was taught to do it legato.

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

That's funny, your bass player may live to regret that...

 

Another thing, once you get decent at playing bass, you'll find just as much joy in that as you do with your regular keys playing. As we all know bass is a critical part of any band and if you're suddenly doing it right you'll start really feeling it. Then you'll start getting comments like I have on occasion from a drummer who told me my left hand was better than some bassists he's worked with. This is because I really listen to what a drummer is doing and will modify the bass accordingly.

 

To start you will keep to a basic groove that you can handle but like anything else it's just experience and practice. You've heard and played enough jazz that your ears will tell you what a bass part should sound like just like you already know what certain piano parts should sound like. Just start applying that knowledge to your bass playing.

 

For me, just because I can do it doesn't mean I want to do it all the time. There's a few bass players I know who I would much rather have on the gig rather than me playing organ bass. It frees me up to do so much more on keys plus these guys are really good and I love interacting with what they do. Yet there is a certain joy I get from playing bass, I just don't want to be boxed in to that.

 

Bob

[Jazzmammal]

I see we were posting at the same time. Eddie is good but for the ultimate Flintstones check out Gerard Gibbs:

 

 

This is just your basic home video at some club shot from the side. You can't see anything he's doing but man o man what a performance. Gibbs is a complete bad ass on organ. He's a killer on piano too.

 

Bob

[WesG]

If that were played legato, the bass would have no articulation whatever...and would probably sound muddy as all get out. Remember, on piano, you have attack to separate notes. On organ great manual, you only have space and pitch. The envelope is always square. Well, ignoring key click, which this organ does not seem to emulate.

[Jazzwee]

If that were played legato, the bass would have no articulation whatever...and would probably sound muddy as all get out. Remember, on piano, you have attack to separate notes. On organ great manual, you only have space and pitch. The envelope is always square. Well, ignoring key click, which this organ does not seem to emulate.

 

Good thing I'm noticing then! I can't believe how much I already picked in a week, at least intellectually.

 

 

[Jazzwee]

I see we were posting at the same time. Eddie is good but for the ultimate Flintstones check out Gerard Gibbs:

 

 

This is just your basic home video at some club shot from the side. You can't see anything he's doing but man o man what a performance. Gibbs is a complete bad ass on organ. He's a killer on piano too.

 

Bob

 

Now that sounds like a real bass player. My point though is that it seems passable to not attempt too complex a line on the bass as long as the groove is there (just setting a woodshed roadmap here.)

 

 

[Jazzwee]

Anybody know how this was done? Was she using the drawbars as a Wah-Wah pedal? I guess I can't do that on an Electro.

 

And what's the closest to a guitar tone? I accidentally found it once but maybe someone has something better (I forgot the setting...I'll have to do trial and error again. Next time I'll take notes).

 

[video:youtube]

 

[Jazzmammal]

There's no weird organ special effects here. She explains it in one of her responses to a YT poster:

 

Hi Tony! I'm playing the organ the whole way through (including the bass); also DJ Killa-Jewel and I played different bottles for the samples at the beginning and some synth patches ...

 

I just noticed this has been up for nine months? 295 views?

This is a pretty good recording, she needs more than that.

 

Bob

[TrapperJack]

...

 

Jimmy Smith said "the bass is the boss" so yes it comes first.

Bob

 

Do we have a reference for this? I'd like to see everything Jimmy Smith said about playing the bass line on organ. Please post more details.

[TrapperJack]

A lot of good information being discussed here.

 

Spend quite a bit of time on the Eddie Landsberg videos. He is a clear and purposeful teacher of jazz organ, and his bass line strategy for Rhythm changes is very typical of his style.

[The Real MC]

Your first time on organ?

 

Were you on top?

[Jazzwee]

Your first time on organ?

 

Were you on top?

 

Absolutely! And how about you? Do you put your organ to use?

[Jazzwee]

And what's the closest to a guitar tone? I accidentally found it once but maybe someone has something better (I forgot the setting...I'll have to do trial and error again. Next time I'll take notes).

 

 

In answer to my own question, I guess OVERDRIVE does the trick.

 

I was thinking of Oye Como Va where I can handle the comping portion now and want some lead sound for contrast. The regular organ sound seemed to close.

 

 

[Jazzwee]

I did organ at a jam session last night. I made a point to stay on the organ the whole time (3 hours of it since I didn't have to compete with a piano).

 

Since the tunes are randomly called, I realized that some advance thinking is required to set up the single keyboard properly. I wanted to do splits so I can cut down the volume for comping (e.g. Lower 008800000 and upper 888000000 as starting positions).

 

As it turns out, if I'm comping (no bass), I have to keep adjusting split points depending on the tune. This always screws me up on solos.

 

Then of course I can't comp well with the LH. Sometimes I forget that the octaves of the splits are not contiguous so voicings get messed up. Grrrr!

 

I finally got frustrated and just used a single manual.

 

Anyway this requires some thinking. I realize it would be simpler with a dual manual and real drawbars. But no choice right now.

 

The second biggest problem was the habit of tapping my foot. Except I'm on a swell pedal so you know what happens then.

 

Third problem was just swing articulation. It's a little different than what I do on piano so I'm playing around with this. I'll try to record something again to see if I can resolve some of this.

 

Fourth, I did a palm gliss and hurt myself! Yikes! Need to get used to that. I was doing that gliss that Lucky did on some other thread (reverb + fast leslie). Sounded great!

 

 

 

[JMcS]

 

Some help with Organ Bass:

 

Bass tutorial and jazz organ

 

 

[WesG]

Will your organ let you add another manual? I have a DX7 around here I've been meaning to test out as the great manual, using my VR09 as a swell manual.

 

A high trigger point helps a lot with Palm glissandi.

[Jazzwee]

Will your organ let you add another manual? I have a DX7 around here I've been meaning to test out as the great manual, using my VR09 as a swell manual.

 

A high trigger point helps a lot with Palm glissandi.

 

Yes, I can add a lower manual ONLY. Which I presume means no percussion (?). That's consistent with the behavior on the split keyboard. I then presume that I can treat it as an Upper manual if not using percussion?

 

The specific Electro 4 model (HP 73) that I have has a fixed trigger point, which is high. I just have to practice not digging in too deep, I think.

 

I wish I had lots of money right now and can afford a dual manual with full drawbars.

[Jazzwee]

Some help with Organ Bass:

 

Bass tutorial and jazz organ

 

 

Thanks. Giving it a read. I did find this interesting (re: Jimmy Smith Bass Lines)...

 

If you don't believe it's organ, consider this: Great as that bass playing

is, a string bass player would likely be varying the lines a little more

than what you hear here; Jimmy's bass is somewhat on "automatic," and

tends to not change alot (he's *busy* elsewhere), although certainly there

are times when one has a second to think of a variation to throw in.

That's one reason I like McDuff's bass so much, he seems to have more time

to split his brain and come up with variations to the bass line.

 

My bassist was critical of organ bass players saying it's not same thing as a real bass player. I guess he didn't like the idea of me learning LH bass and dumping the bassist

 

 

 

[TrapperJack]

Some more help with left hand bass technique.

 

http://www.organforum.com/forums/showthread.php?24682-Left-Hand-Bass-Comping-Grooves-and-Soloing

[TrapperJack]

Does any forum member have a reference for Jimmy Smith talking about any playing techniques, please?

 

Among all the press interviews, chapters on Smith in books on jazz, videos, recordings, academic studies I have read, it appears that Jimmy Smith discussed very little about how he played. And what he is quoted as having said is very general, even sweeping.

 

For example, he has been attributed as having said that he learned the pedals by having a large chart on the wall of a warehouse where he practised his B3 for the first three months he owned it. Now, this may be true, and it may help us today, if we apply this suggestion, but Jimmy Smith's pedal work did not rival the classical organists of his day, and certainly it did not rival Barbara D's.

 

Don't misunderstand me, Jimmy had speed and agility and could weave over a blues progression for hours, and he was a cornerstone of the whole jazz organ sound as the instrument became electronic (more general than tone wheel only, or B3). He was a primary driver and master of the genre. He pioneered many of the "tricks" we all try to replicate today. But he relied more on left hand bass than pedal bass. And I have found very little "specific playing advice" directly passed on by the master.

 

If you know of some that we can source today, please direct me. Thanks.

[WesG]

On a Hammond console organ, percussion is not available on the great (lower) manual, only the swell. Other than that, they are basically the same. Having two manuals makes many things much easier IME.

[Jazzwee]

I have a penchant for embarrassing myself, especially among the better players. But I thought this might be helpful for others learning.

 

I just want to post a comparison between my piano playing and my organ playing (as of this moment). I still think that my capacity to express articulation on the organ is at a baby stage. I'm a little better on piano.

 

These are just short snippets of Stella by Starlight. I was concentrating more on articulation so nothing fancy in the solo lines themselves.

 

What I was searching for, and not finding yet (you can hear me search on organ) is to come up with an articulation that works for me. The squareness of the envelope is daunting.

 

I may have to change the way I swing on organ. I'm trying things like dragging the beat, detached, straight/hard swing, swell. Not coming up with the answer yet. I guess I may have really listen and copy someone. When I think I have it and go back to the organ, I realize it's not right.

 

 

Piano

https://app.box.com/s/0ltgkq6aymzrlu5j7kk1

 

Organ

https://app.box.com/s/wlwmhupw14u0fmcdv56r

 

(Note: backing track is BIAB).

 

Seeing, how I'm approaching this shift to organ playing, I'm curious at how other pianists have approached this and how they dealt with these issues. It seems to me that I have to develop another set of "touch/articulation" skills.

 

Or do you just give up and settle on one instrument or the other?