My First Time On Organ!

[Jazz+]

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqMXl-sLWbg

[Jazz+]

 

 

The organ teacher:

 

[video:youtube]

[zukskywalker]

Opposite experience here...started firmly on organ and still have issues with piano to some degree.

But get this one. I've always tinkered with the idea of playing organ in church since much of the B3 nuance comes from church anyways...and I got sucker punched by a church "gig" and walked into a full on Rodgers Pipe Organ. You haven't lived until you see the lower manual "shadow" the swell manual(!!!). The "swell" pedals are heavily dampened so there are no stabs or fast crescendos and voices/pipes and "real" brass "accumulate" as you sweep through the swell.

There are stops everywhere, even at my feet, just above the bass pedals which are mind numbing unto themselves.

(First step: figure out the "logic" behind the layout of the stops)

In an earlier thread I had posted up about how some of our 3 tier rigs start looking like concert organs. My 3 tier never looked so small as compared to this behemoth.

And then there's the music. I'm in deep trouble.

 

[TrapperJack]

LH and foot were burning with that bass line. Wow. Too much to think about.

 

What exactly was going on with the bass line in that video?

 

This raises a central issue for B3 players in small settings: left hand bass? pedal bass? combine both? tap a "B" for "percussive effect" while playing bass in left hand? etc

 

First, what could we hear? Very little, I suggest.

 

Second, the left hand was clearly not "walking", more deploying a couple of root - octave, and root - fifth patterns. A few grace notes added, true. But he did not play a very sophisticated or melodically useful bass line.

 

The great bass players of jazz that some people want to cite when "how to play bass on organ" questions arise would never simply do this, even at tempo.

 

All of us who play some jazz organ must "solve" this bass line issue. And its fun to work at this solution.

[Jazzwee]

What I'd like to ask of the experienced people here is some sort of practice plan. If you had student who already plays jazz piano, what would be the steps needed to build skills?

 

Not knowing how to approach this, what I did today was pick a tune and then plan out how I'm going to build it up. I set up a couple of presets and since I have a 73, I split the keys. Also I am not playing bass.

 

Then I played the tune and rotated through the different phases of building up using swell, fast-leslie, percussion, CV, pulled out some drawbars and then brought it back down. Trying to make it automatic.

 

Given that I don't have a dual manual, I can see the disadvantages. But no choice right now.

 

 

 

 

[Jazzwee]

I assume the left foot was just thumping on the same drone note while the LH walked. 'Confirmation' chord changes.

 

I watched his knee move around so that doesn't seem like just a drone note. If not then he's dancing. Can't tell from the recording though.

[Jazzwee]

After sampling all the organists mentioned here, I think I'm going to go with emulating the style of Larry Goldings. In a lot of ways, he's not straying that far from piano and using tone and dynamics more than anything from what I can hear.

 

He doesn't seem to overdo the typical organ blues cliches ala Jimmy Smith like smears and percussive slapping. Liking his musical content.

 

Really enjoyed this concert.

 

[video:youtube]

[lophiomys]

Looking at organists playing the Hammond B3, you should also risk a look at Raphael Wressnig.

 

E.g. together with Harry Sokal on saxophone, more on the jazzy side

 

and for fun

 

[Jazzmammal]

I would tell you to practice LH bass anyway because that is the essence of organ playing. Even if you never do it on stage it helps you get the phrasing right for the classic jazz organ licks. It's also part of piano playing too, it's called hand independence. There's tons of piano vids on YT where they teach exactly this. Dave Frank has about two hours of vids on playing LH piano bass, not because he's actually playing piano bass in a band but because it's very useful in solo jazz piano work. You hear all the greats doing some of this in lots of their famous recordings. Oscar, Brubeck, Gene Harris and of course Dave McKenna who made his career on that. I've heard lots of recordings where the band will stop and the pianist takes over just him and the drummer and he just goes off on doing a killer piano solo with LH bass. Jerry Lee Lewis played LH boogie bass doubling the bass player. That is pretty standard in 50's rock and roll piano playing. So yes, start working those LH chops. Here's Dave Franks master class on Dave McKenna. It's in 5 parts, this is just Part 1:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2p8H7zg6LI

 

If you're not doing some of this as part of your jazz piano studies you should be.

 

The other thing too is as you get better at it you can take over maybe just one tune on a gig to see how it sounds. Later you can start booking gigs without a bass player. That helps with the money and simply opens up new opportunities for you. Even though I much prefer working with a bass player I will get calls where I'm doing the bass and it's fun because you basically control everything. The last one was a quartet with drums, sax and guitarist. Where I go they follow, that's it.

 

Bob

[Jazzwee]

Bob, I can play a limited amount of LH bass. I can do it on Blues (while soloing). But chops are limited here so LH is not realistic for the short run. So I pushed this off as a long term thing. I've been doing a bit every day.

 

Besides, having a single manual has limitations.

 

I've just had zero use for LH bass so far and since I will always play piano, there will always be a bass player.

 

The good news is that this appears to be to be the most difficult part of organ technique (LH bass + foot pedals) and since this is not an immediate need, I can proceed to other things.

 

At the moment, I'm focusing on articulation. I'm noticing the way Larry Goldings does it. I want to compare with others to see if there's any consistency. And I will pull my thoughts together for some input.

 

Larry also has a specific approach to using the swell on comping that Jim Alfredson referred to. I'll have to listen a little bit more to confirm what I'm hearing.

 

 

[jjo]

When I saw Goldings, he used the swell pedal at least twice a bar, but not on the beat. I couldn't hear what effect he was getting from it.

[Jazzwee]

What I heard on comping is that he increases the attack volume, emulating a piano. Then pulls back quickly. He uses it quite a bit on comping but the overall volume is really low. Really fitting for an acoustic Jazz trio.

 

On the solos, I noticed that he's playing staccato mostly to get that percussion sound. He's doing a modern jazz piano articulation (fairly straight). When soloing, I hear him focus less on swell and more on varying the tone.

 

I see that Fast Leslie is done to highlight. Not overdone. Pulling down the bright drawbars are also done only for highlights and he focuses mostly on the regular base 888000000 tone.

 

He sounds a little more subtle than Joey D who has a more aggressive sound to my ears. Also there's a definite difference in content since Joey D is more bebop based while Goldings seem to have different roots. Reflective of his different influences I suppose.

 

Joey D's articulation is similar (staccato) on the fast tunes.

 

I mention this because in playing jazz piano, we try to play as legato as possible. So this is the opposite.

 

I haven't listened enough to know how accurate my observations are. It's just from the few things I've listened to. I did buy some Larry Goldings albums.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jazzwee]

Looking at organists playing the Hammond B3, you should also risk a look at Raphael Wressnig.

 

E.g. together with Harry Sokal on saxophone, more on the jazzy side

 

and for fun

 

 

Cool. I can dig Wressnig. Also ilked Sam Yahel.

 

Not into Blues so much so I'm not necessarily drawn to Jimmy Smith, etc.

 

Noticing that I seem to be biased to those exhibiting chops that are similar to jazz piano.

 

EDIT - prior to discovering these new names, I'd say my primary familiarity with Organ is with Joey D, to whom I've listened a lot to over the years.

 

[Musicale]

I remember the first time on my organ...

 

Musicale

 

[Jazzmammal]

Those are good observations, you're on the right track.

 

Bob

[Jazzwee]

Thanks, Bob. That confirmation is helpful. As I've learned in the past, the first barrier to learning is to see if I can hear nuances. If not then, I don't think I can make progress.

 

I've begun to recognize drawbar settings too and when certain effects are used (CV, Percussion).

 

Since you play organ on weighted keys (like I am), what's your approach on that? Obviously a different thought process. One of these days, I'll be able to afford a dual manual clonewheel that feels like the real deal.

 

For now, I don't think the wife will allow a real B-3 in the house, regardless of price.

 

 

 

[Jazzwee]

When I actually practiced articulating it staccato, it didn't work. It sounds like it has to be played detached. Just a tiny crack in between. It's very hard to time the release as well.

[WesG]

Make sure you play with note spacing and percussion there is a lot to learn just there.

 

And texture, man, texture. Listen to Lonnie Smith. You can only play one kind of note on piano. Organ, man, there's a billion things you can do with timbre. And you can play long notes, too. Like a horn player.

[Jazzwee]

Make sure you play with note spacing and percussion there is a lot to learn just there.

 

And texture, man, texture. Listen to Lonnie Smith. You can only play one kind of note on piano. Organ, man, there's a billion things you can do with timbre. And you can play long notes, too. Like a horn player.

 

Thanks man. That note spacing was what I was talking about. It's like relearning some new technique (controlling release). It's #1 priority right now. Fortunately, I can see improvement just after a couple of days.

 

And then there's the foot control for expression pedal. That's such a new movement that it's difficult to be sensitive with it.

 

[TrapperJack]

The swell pedal will keep you interested for a while, you will think you have it "down", and then you will seek even greater control and subtle effects in phrases, and you will start again on "that swell pedal".

 

But, on a weighted keyboard you are not learning something seminal about organ playing. Try to spend as much time as you can on a real organ.

 

You can play left hand bass on a Nord 73, with a split keyboard: bass and comp, and bass and melody, and bass and melody coupled with harmony. If you are not playing pedals, you need, I think, to learn the left hand bass skills.

 

All the best. Keep at it.

[Jazzwee]

But, on a weighted keyboard you are not learning something seminal about organ playing. Try to spend as much time as you can on a real organ.

 

Thanks Trap. Now you got me worried though. What bad habits will I build with the weighted keys? There is option for using an unweighted MIDI keyboard so there's still a possibility of practicing some organ specific moves. And fortunately, I already have spare MIDI keys.

 

I made this choice because I had to prioritize for piano and also it was the cheapest possible option.

 

The only problem is that on the Nord, the MIDI keyboard is designated as a Lower Manual. My presumption is that this will mean it will exclude percussion. Not certain but that's how a real organ behaves right?

 

I just have to search for my old MIDI cables and try it out.

 

 

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I wouldn't stress over the keyboard being weighted. I have all three PC3 boards - admittedly the PC361 is superior for playing organ, but I usually have it located at church. I can't do everything on the PC3 (or the PC3X) but I find that I optimize things while playing. For instance, if I have the PC3 as upper and PC3X as lower, I would try to play most Hammond stuff on the lesser weighted board. However, if I decided I wanted a bit of Hammond sound mixed in with something I was already playing on the PC3 (maybe a Rhodes patch), I'd just punch it up on the PC3X and go with it. Obviously, this is not an all evening thing. Since I have the same patches on both boards in the same locations, I tend to flow from where I am at the moment. (One thing I do NOT do is try to run Hammond on both boards at the same time unless I'm just doing bass on one - but this is because I don't have a way setup to switch Leslie speeds at the same time. I am considering either adding a Vent (or Burn) to my setup, or adding an SK1. Since I ply mostly for a mixture of the love of playing and as a part of my church ministry, I have to be concerned with "do I really need another instrument, or should I sell something first".

 

Point being - find out what you can do well and can not do well on each type keyboard. If Hammond sounds do become very important to you in the future; you will likely purchase something else just to satisfy that need. At the present, focus on expanding your abilities involving mixing your piano touch and organ touch. I don't really see any bad habits from the weighted keys, unless you consider bad that you do NOT do certain things that just don't work well on them.

 

I consider Jim Alfredson one of the best overall organists that hangs around here - and he has different instrument combinations for different purposes. His full XK3 2 manual and pedal setup was great near home in a studio or local gig (now using an SK2). Not so great for a fly gig. But the lightweight SK1 and Casio keyboard take out a lot of the pain that I used to read about in his messages about what had been provided by a backline company. Different things for different gigs.

 

And yes, there really is nothing like having a real B3 or A100 + Leslie. But I wouldn't even consider moving them around for gigs.

 

[Jazzwee]

MoodyBluesKeys, I'm glad to get your side of things on weighted. A couple of other people aren't as concerned as well. But the majority seem to be.

 

In any case, in actual playing, I haven't encountered any particular difficulty because I'm not doing a lot of the blues type of moves that work better on unweighted keys. And yes it's difficult to run a thumb through the keys. But I can compensate with the palm doing the gliss.

 

I think for my style, which is more jazz and less of the gritty organ playing (at least for now), I can probably survive.

 

I play fairly fast on the weighted as long as I don't have to worry about digging in like a piano. So a change of approach is required.

 

 

[Jazzwee]

I'll stick my neck out and post a recording on organ after one week. That's an iRealB on the backing track (meaning I am not playing bass).

 

Invitation

https://app.box.com/s/t5hw2aurjqlw04jivvz7

 

There's a lot of details to remember so I didn't mess around with the drawbars much. I also tried heavy percussion but it didn't seem to fit this particular tune. I used the expression pedal a lot and CV, and Leslie speed. Played more legato here which fortunately is easier for me.

 

I just gave it a couple of tries. One with percussion and one without.

 

Critique is welcome!

 

 

 

 

[MoodyBluesKeys]

Right tasty playing! Sounds to me like everything is there that needs to be (Benmont Tench is one of my heros of keyboard - some would call his playing sparse - but it just fills up what is needed).

 

Constant drawbar changes seem to be from the black gospel tradition. In many cases, the organists were playing older Hammonds without percussion, and frequently without a Leslie. That only leaves drawbars, expression, and voicing as variables.

 

Nice danceable music.

 

[TrapperJack]

This is a good start. Well done.

 

Keep this recording, and listen to it again in a year or so. I expect you will notice considerable change in what you will grow into over time, especially with the left hand, the "thickness" of the right hand sound, a bass line from somewhere, and a lot of other things.

 

But, make no mistake, this is good start.

 

Very "musical". Well done.

[Jazzwee]

Moody and Trap, thanks for the positive comments.

 

I don't intend to play "piano" on the organ, but just from listening to Larry Goldings, etc. I noticed that the adjustments to the sound are more subtle. Again I appreciate corrections to my observations here if I'm off.

 

Jazz sounds more like single notes while blues tend to have the thicker polyphonic sound and the signature licks in thirds.

 

This particular tune I played is very difficult harmonically so it doesn't stay in a scale long enough for me to feel like there's room for "lingering". So how I approached it was possibly limited by the tune choice. That choice was random by the way. I just a lead sheet sitting near me and it was Invitation. I haven't even played this in a year.

 

As I listened to more Larry Goldings, I noticed that he plays with the drawbars and changing the texture more when he's comping. Less on the solos where he's focused on the melodic lines. It is also very hard to adjust anything beyond a switch on the Electro. I'm not sure how to implement the concept of a Bb/B preset. I wish I had that easily. If I change to a new program, it cuts off the sound.

 

I'm glad that my observations are least close in implementation here. It's still distracting to think about tonal aspects while playing, including having to lift hands to control the organ so it wasn't smooth.

 

And yes, I'll be interested to see how this all sounds sometime from now. I expect that within a few months, many aspects will be refined, excluding LH Bass.

 

[Jazzwee]

Jim Alfredson -- I'm obviously new at this and don't know about the breadth of players out there. So I saw your John Patton videos on Youtube and listened with an open mind. And man -- this stuff really appeals to me! Loved it.

 

I guess if I lean towards Goldings then I must appreciate the same things!

 

Anyway, I'm reposting those videos here.

 

 

[video:youtube]

 

[video:youtube]

[TrapperJack]

Jazzwee, go looking for Rounder on You Tube. His early work was done on a Nord Electro 2 76, and he shows just how to change the settings on the fly. I understand that Nord have repositioned the controls for chorus, etc from model to model, but you still might get some ideas. Rounder is well worth watching, for he is not an expert, but a developing player doing serious work and making good progress.

 

Left hand bass takes a bit of dedicated work to get started, but inside a few months you should feel like it is all worth while.

[Jazzwee]

When you guys play LH bass, are you relying more on fixed patterns and concentrating on groove, or are you actually playing like a live bass player?

 

I realize that Tony Monaco can actually sound like a real bass player but I've watched several organ players now and mostly the LH bass becomes simplified during solos.

 

I've not been successful at LH bass because I've transcribed some bass lines and I try to vary it a lot. And my brain is not ready for that so I falter, usually by slipping on a note and then I lose not just the root but also may create some non-legato gap. That is why I'm so frustrated with LH bass and never practiced it much for many years.

 

I'm doing more of it now but I can't say I feel it improved much. I know I need patience. It took me a year originally before I could even solo over a walking bass line. And I still can, but any faltering on even a single note is bad for groove and the bass player is the groove master.

 

So do I simplify the bass line and create a fixed pattern at first? What's some recommended approaches. I just need to solidify the groove before anything else, I think.