My First Time On Organ!

[Jazzmammal]

I couldn't hear the piano one, it want's me to create an account and sign in but the organ one I can listen to. First, forget the left hand until you get the split worked out. The drawbars are all wrong. Start with lowering the left hand comp an octave along with the volume. Comping on organ is fairly subtle, this sounds too loud and shrill.

 

The right hand is too square like you said. It's hard to describe but start with the expression pedal, play less notes and slow it down a little so you can put some feeling into it. Also you are playing all single note lines with no chords in the right hand. Again, hard to put in writing but organists will punch a chord or two in between those lines and since even a two note chord is louder than a single note that alone will add dynamics but then you use the pedal too. Phrasing is very important, try to play like a horn player with pauses to breathe. You can get away with running those types of lines on a piano because you're changing the feel and sound with touch and the sustain pedal but that doesn't work on organ. Something else to try is just play the melody like you did on Invitation and then work some solo parts around it.

 

Please understand I'm not dumping on you, you're trying to learn and it takes balls to post your first efforts. Something else, this is an example of why you should consider playing bass instead of comping even if you're practicing. Bass will settle down your solo and help it groove, try it.

 

Bob

[Jazzwee]

That's not dumping on me Bob. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm recognizing that it has to be approached differently. So that little recording was an attempt at searching and it wasn't working out and I could tell.

 

I fixed the piano link. But here it is.

 

PIANO

https://app.box.com/s/0ltgkq6aymzrlu5j7kk1

 

 

My point is that if I try to play it like piano (which I tried to do), it seemed to be a fail. Obviously I'm more comfortable with piano.

 

And thanks! I'm pretty accepting of critique because as long as I accept and hear a problem I can correct it and sound better.

 

 

Something else, this is an example of why you should consider playing bass instead of comping even if you're practicing. Bass will settle down your solo and help it groove, try it.

 

Not ready for this yet. But I'm shedding it.

 

 

[TrapperJack]

Jazzwee, congratulations.

 

You're under way.

 

We all have to play badly before we can play well, and you have moved on from "badly" to "having a serious learning experience". And, you are doing it in public: I tips me lid to you.

 

Right now, adding only to JazzMammal's comments, I suggest you think about "how do I build a solo?".

 

Your answer will be gold, but it might take a while before you are content with your answer to your question.

 

Do it, man. You persist, you succeed. We clap.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I liked both piano & organ versions. Bob really illuminated me with his comments on the organ version - I knew that something needed to be different, but just didn't know what (the reason this applies to me is that I have the same thing with my Hammond playing - even though I did organ before keyboard/piano, it was traditional church organ, which is much different from Hammond playing).

 

This thread has been very helpful to me in showing where I need to make some changes. I played clarinet and saxophone (before COPD reduced my air volume) - and do a fairly credible job of playing orchestral reed and string parts on my PC3; but I never even thought that my Hammond playing needed breath pauses just like my reed playing. Also the idea of using chords instead of one note to separate phrases (why is it that I hear others doing this and even sometimes can see the playing - but I don't pick up on it).

 

Even using two boards, I don't usually use one for comping, I find it easier to do bass on the second board (I had hundreds of different bass patches and articulations when I used to have the K2000).

 

Thank you for being willing to post your examples of where you are now - they are helping me.

 

[Jazzwee]

I certainly don't mind being a guinea pig. And the good thing about getting public comments is that it's sort of "peer reviewed". So let's keep the discussion going and critique away.

 

When one plays piano, you naturally leave the finger on the key to let it decay so no further thinking is needed on space between notes.

 

But as I listen again to Larry Goldings, I can see that due to the thickness of the organ sound, lots of texture variations have to occur both in space and note length. And I have to make them occur vs. just being passive like on piano. On piano, it's about the velocity of the attack and other than leaving my finger there for legato, the job is done at the initial point.

 

I can see that there's a phrasing problem when I couldn't yet hear how to get around that square sound profile.

 

There's other subtleties I can't figure out yet, like how the Leslie is used to phrase, or CV. I haven't gotten to that yet other than knowing something is going on there.

 

I also noticed that jazz pianists tend to be thick with notes (lots of 16ths). The jazz organists not as much.

 

It's easy to say that organ is different than piano. I've read that everywhere, but until I went through this exercise, I didn't actually truly understand. I've searched the web and there's not the kind of detail one would find on piano playing. So maybe this thread will be a future source of that information.

 

 

 

[allan_evett]

Wow... Great thread. Should I decide to put the time into learning organ properly, these six pages (so far) will be a solid starting point; looks to be an excellent resource.

 

I've been a student of the piano - one way or another - for about 45 years; synthesizers about 25 years; and mostly single manual, rock/pop style organ for maybe 15 years. I've played organ parts on various keyboards for much longer than that, but didn't start to get a clue about the breadth and depth of instrument until I ended up on a local, demo session with a B3 in the room .

 

Jazzwee, I will listen to the sound files you posted when I'm back at my desktop computer. The combination of signal and iPad renders it pretty much impossible to listen right now. I look forward to hearing the tracks

[Jazzwee]

Well don't expect much allan! LOL.

 

Your interest is encouraging and I'm glad it's useful.

 

If there are others new to organ playing, maybe they will not be intimidated and participate. Unlike piano playing, Organ is probably possible to be self taught IMO, if you already play piano.

 

 

[TrapperJack]

A teacher is always useful, no matter how advanced you think you are. Top sports people retain coaches. Professionals consult their peers. It will be a sad day when there is no-one on this Earth who can teach me nothing about something.

 

But, I agree, you are responsible for your own learning, and you must continually think and try and evaluate for yourself, modify, and go again.

 

Perhaps set yourself a goal with just a few elements, rather than try to master all that jazz organ entails in the "first week". And where you started, the swell pedal and what it can contribute, is a central one to a jazz organ style.

 

Something like the expressiveness of touch on piano is captured on organ by using both the fingers (not wrists, though) and swell pedal on organ.

 

Anyway, whatever you choose, focus on a few things at a time.

 

Keep the fire burning.

[Jazzwee]

Yes Trap. Too many details and too many appendages to control so I practiced elements in isolation.

 

-- Just phrasing with Leslie

-- Comping with Expression Pedal + Leslie

-- LH Bass on several tunes

 

Anyone have a single manual with a split keyboard? This is just causing me so many problems. I tried to set up Lower split to 00880000 and Upper to 888000000 (or thereabouts). What happens though is that whatever octave I have the lower to will of course now shift up an octave with 0088 setting.

 

So it becomes so hard when I have to do two handed comping because the split point is in the way. This was apparent in my last recording.

 

What I was trying to accomplish here was to lower the volume of the LH when comping over a solo. But this is not working out. I've reset my standard split to have contiguous octaves with just a bare hint lower volume on the Lower split. This way, I can use the whole keyboard if necessary.

 

Instead of trying to comp on the LH like a dual manual, which doesn't work in my case, I just need to lay out the LH when needed. So unless I'm going to practice LH Bass (not in a gig though), I'm going to think of one manual only.

 

My other problem is that sometimes the Lower split's bass volume just drops on some keys. Is this Foldback? Sometimes I can't get the volume of the bass to match the upper manual. Lots of technical quirks to figure out.

 

And a little frustrated with the LH Bass. I saw that some players slap the keys down and non-legato. Hard to get out of the legato mode here. This will take awhile before I can do it while soloing. Truly months and months here so I will not force this.

 

[TrapperJack]

I had two Nord 73 note Electros (a 2, then a 3) before I bought my dual manual 2C: I know this frustration at just where the voicings lie.

 

I think I used 848 000 000 for the lower split, and 048 800 000 for the comp and melody, but I am not certain and I'm not near keys now to check.

 

Practice the LH bass on patterns. One blues scale pattern, and one set of iim7-V7-Imaj7. The thread I posted a short while back has voicings, fingerings for bass, and applications of the patterns to songs (several gospel, blues charts, if I remember correctly). The bass finger patterns work in all keys.

 

But, slow and steady. It takes three weeks for most people to get a trick truly down.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

Foldback does cause problems in LH bass - first off, Hammond themselves used a sizable number of different generators and different foldback combinations. Some of the older (pre-B3) Hammond notes went all the way down. Next - each clone's implementation of foldback seems a bit different.

 

The concept of foldback really began with pipe organs. Depending on the budget for the instrument, the physical space and arrangement of the building for pipe location - there were often instances where particular ranks of pipes did not cover the entire keyboard. Rather than having the instrument just not make any sound when a particular note (usually low end or high end of the keyboard) was played - the idea came up of using the same pipe an octave above (or below) the struck key.

 

The foldback with pipe organs was more common on the lower pedal and manual notes, because itty-bitty pipes don't take up a lot of space, and are not (relatively) all that expensive; but BIG long pipes get quite expensive, and there is not always room to put them (modern pipe instruments frequently use electronic add-ons for these very low pitch notes).

 

The problem in trying to use this arrangement for bass is that, suddenly when one goes below C (or C# on some models), the played pitch is up instead of down. This does not do a good job of emulating what a typical bass player will do (although on 4-string bass the problem also occurs below the low E - which is why I went to a 5-string bass that goes down to B).

 

Many of the later spinet Hammonds (that were still tonewheel manuals) wound up using a separate electronic generator for pedal notes, and had 16' & 8' pitches plus another 8' drawbar that had sustain. With a 13 note short pedalboard, playing in the style of a pipe organ with 32 note AGO keyboard was impossible.

 

During the time I had the Nord Electro 3 73; I never could manage to make a split work for me. However, I always had two keyboards at the church, so I made a MIDI connection to the Electro, and played the lower manual stuff on the PC2 - if I was comping LH chords. If I was doing LH bass, I just bypassed the whole foldback issue by using a bass guitar patch on the PC2, and using the Nord as a single manual (I still do this, with a PC361 upper and the PC2 lower). My ability level is such that I still have to considerably simplify the bass whenever I'm also using the RH for another voice. When playing with the other band, there is always a bass player and rhythm player, so I don't need to get too thick with the notes.

 

Personally, in Jazzwee's situation, I'd focus at first on just getting a good solid sound using the keyboard without doing LH bass at first. Over time, if added gigs appear that warrant more organ, a dual manual or even dual manual with pedals can be purchased. All the playing foundation that has been built will still be useful.

[mate stubb]

Without 2 manuals, you magnify the difficulty of learning the basic walking bass/comp on lower manual + melody/solo on upper manual - a LOT. Splits just don't cut it for this.

[Rusty Mike]

In Jazzwee's earlier thread about organ playing styles, I mentioned that I like to keep an EP sound on the lower keyboard while playing the B3 on the upper. It's precisely because of the LH dilemma discussed here that I started doing that. I have a bass player, so LH bass is not necessary for me. Yet I struggle with the proper kind of LH accompaniment when playing jazz organ. I've tried different kind of rhythms and voicing using varying registrations, and can't seem to find an approach that works for me.

 

Using an EP sound on the left hand allows me to keep my piano-based approach to LH accompaniment using velocity-based dynamics and flexibility with voicings. A mellower EP sound works great because it's closer to the sine wave texture of a tone wheel organ than an AP is, and doesn't stand out. Finally, The ringing sustain in the mid-register voices give an illusion of held organ notes.

 

Of course, the downside here is that you can't do a split like that on an Electro. It works only if you're playing a second keyboard. I still struggle with how to handle LH comping when I'm using the Electro in split mode. The lower manual is always either too loud and in front or buried too deep to hear it. Even though I'm not great on LH bass, it's actually almost easier to do than LH comping on the lower manual.

[Jazzwee]

Now you all tell me! Everyone's been quiet until I go into crisis. LOL.

 

Just so it's clear, I'm woodshedding LH Bass but this is not a gig set up for me. I have no intention of gigging without a bass player this year, and possibly beyond. So I'm not concerned about a lower manual for bass playing.

 

So let's just focus on the comping thing on a single keyboard with splits.

 

The way to make this work for me, and it's not final, is just to make the registrations between the split points be subtle. This way, if I cross over, then it's not so noticeable.

 

Partly it's the way I play piano. If I'm playing a head, I'd like use two handed voicings with melody on top. So I need the spread. If doing comping alone, I'm used to two handed comping.

 

This has a tendency to bump into the split point. Do I then just play LH rootless comps and then attempt to playing everything with the RH? This just gets uncomfortable at times because the LH is so far from the right hand. Very unnatural playing style with big register gaps.

 

If my RH goes up, I will tend to follow with the LH. So I'm learning to use the expression pedal when I'm comping in the spaces. And then also using the expression when I move the LH up the play a little denser.

 

There's so many stylistic issues to consider. The main difficulty though is that some tunes require a different approach and I don't want to have to keep resetting the split point.

 

Maybe to have consistency, I should forget about split points (unless I'm shedding LH bass), and use the expression pedal to tone down the comping.

 

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

Now you really understand what all these organ clone threads are all about and why guys will get into the nerdy details about this or that function. Unless you're talking the big dual manual organs like the Hammond SK2, the Mojo or the Nord CD2 everything else is a compromise. I agree about using an EP for LH comps to go with organ in the right. Done that many times.

 

I know squat about your Electro but if you can split it with a separate drawbar setting from the right I don't see the problem. Just set the drawbars for it that gives you a nice mellow mid range tone. The point you're missing is jazz organists stay within about an octave and a half range for comps to support the upper manual. Sure, there's exceptions but for what you're trying to do and learn, just voice your chords within an octave or so and don't worry about changing the split point. That leaves you plenty of room to work out with your right hand. This is the main area where organ is completely different from piano, your solo or melody can be at the top of the range yet the comp stays within that octave, it does not move up with your right hand except for those balls out full drawbar climax's you hear on some recordings.

 

I'm waiting...

 

For bass, there's no need for a split if you're using the basic 888000000 drawbar setting with no percussion. That works well enough for both bass and soloing. In a perfect world you would have separate control over the bass and right hand but for practicing purposes this will work. Also don't worry about the foldback thing too much. As you said, you're not gigging as a bass player anyway, this is just for hand independence for organ soloing and to help you get a feel for it.

 

Bob

[mate stubb]

The classic jazz setup is this:

 

808000000 or 838000000 for lower manual walking bass and comping.

 

888000000 with or without percussion for top manual soloing and heads.

[Jazz+]

The classic jazz setup is this:

 

808000000 or 838000000 for lower manual walking bass and comping.

 

888000000 with or without percussion for top manual soloing and heads.

 

I agree and that's what I use too. It's almost all one needs to know if you play well.

[Jazzmammal]

Right but we're not talking about a lower manual here, we're talking about a split keyboard on a Nord Electro. If you're going to use 838 for the left hand split, you have to shift the octave for comping and it appears the Nord won't do that which is why we're talking about using the 8' and 4' drawbars for comping with the 16' and fundamental off. However if you're playing bass you can set up the full keyboard as you say without a split.

 

When you're playing organ on a single keyboard you have to give up the lower manual comp if you're playing bass and want a fuller sound or percussion on the right hand. Conversly when you have the lower split up an octave for comping you can't play bass there without changing patches. Organ on a single keyboard is a big compromise for a real organist who's used to using all these techniques.

 

Bob

[Jazzwee]

Eddie Lansberg said 008800000 for LH comping so I tried that. But what I wasn't thinking about was that it raised the octave sound up 1, which then raised the foldback position.

 

Again it's stuff one won't understand until one tries. Perhaps I would not have understood it either if someone explained it to me before I got the clonewheel.

 

Anyway, clearly 008800000 might work for a dual manual but it is not good for split keyboards. Too confusing. In fact, if in the middle of the playing I move the 1st drawbar down, then I change the octave for comping and messes the whole thing up. If I accidentally go below the split point in soloing, it sounds awful. You can hear a lot of these in the "failed" organ recording.

 

 

 

[Jazzwee]

Right but we're not talking about a lower manual here, we're talking about a split keyboard on a Nord Electro. If you're going to use 838 for the left hand split, you have to shift the octave for comping and it appears the Nord won't do that which is why we're talking about using the 8' and 4' drawbars for comping with the 16' and fundamental off. However if you're playing bass you can set up the full keyboard as you say without a split.

 

When you're playing organ on a single keyboard you have to give up the lower manual comp if you're playing bass and want a fuller sound or percussion on the right hand. Conversly when you have the lower split up an octave for comping you can't play bass there without changing patches. Organ on a single keyboard is a big compromise for a real organist who's used to using all these techniques.

 

Bob

 

Exactly. I think we're thinking in sync here. The "compromise" side of things have to be considered.

 

I did order a MIDI cable so I can have a MIDI keyboard as a lower manual for LH bass practice.

 

Is it tiring though to keep playing with the RH raised all the time? I haven't done this for extended periods and I just realized it's another new thing.

 

[Jazzwee]

 

I know squat about your Electro but if you can split it with a separate drawbar setting from the right I don't see the problem. Just set the drawbars for it that gives you a nice mellow mid range tone.

Bob

 

If the drawbar settings are extremely different, like 008800000 888000000 then it's a problem. Foldback on the left split and the extreme difference in sound if you accidentally go below the split point.

 

But if the settings are close like 80800000 888000000, then it's not so obvious. At least for comping (no LH bass), this could work. If I need to contrast volume, I might move one side down to 606 or 666. Anyway, I will practice like this for awhile and see what happens.

 

For LH bass practice, I will stick to one manual. Too complicated otherwise.

 

 

[TrapperJack]

Eddie Landsberg had an Electro 2, back in the day: and he sold it.

 

If you are playing LH bass on an Electro, turn off the fold back in the options menu.

 

If you are not playing LH bass, there is no point in splitting the keyboard. You can't have two patches running at once, split or no split.

 

With fold back turned off, split in place, you can practice LH bass and comp, and LH bass and soloing. What are we trying to achieve?

 

But, get onto a genuine organ asap, for all the reasons that are appearing here. Until then, keep up the practice and keep thinking.

[16251]

Someone posted this Robben Ford concert on FB and I couldn't stop watching it. Posting here cause organist is pretty tasty mixing Wurlitzer in and he's not playing LH bass.

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

[Jazz+]

Japanese lady walks bass, comps, and then solos with a single manual 61 key SK-1. Solo starts at 3:55 .(At 5:45 holds note with right thumb solos with upper fingers before the nice shout chorus starting at 6:10. She also wrote the tune:

 

[video:youtube]

[Jazzwee]

Japanese lady walks bass, comps, and then solos with a single manual 61 key SK-1. Solo starts at 3:55 .(At 5:45 holds note with right thumb solos with upper fingers before the nice shout chorus starting at 6:10. She also wrote the tune:

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

Cool. This is not what I'm working on but I need to be able to do this. It seems simple enough. Amazing how much she's doing on 61 keys. The hands stick to a pretty tight area. More to add to the practice regimen.

 

[Jazzmammal]

If the drawbar settings are extremely different, like 008800000 888000000 then it's a problem. Foldback on the left split and the extreme difference in sound if you accidentally go below the split point.

 

Maybe you're missing something here. There's supposed to be a big difference in sound between the splits. That's the point, to have a mellow sound on the left for comping and your full sound in the right for soloing. You have to know where you're playing what so you don't cross the split if you don't want to. If you can edit the foldback out then that fixes that.

 

That vid shows what I said earlier, the left hand stays pretty much within an octave or a 10th. If you do that and keep your right above the split, no problem.

 

Bob

[Jazzwee]

Bob, as I said earlier, relating to comping, if I'm just comping LH rootless or 3/7 on the LH then it's a static position and there's no issue.

 

But if I work on some comps, voicings two handed and go up the keyboard (which is instinctively done in piano), then one forgets the limitations of the split. Worse, I can't assume a fixed split point. After playing a few tunes, I realized that I was uncomfortable with the split point depending on the key of the tune.

 

And if I leave too much of a gap between the two, I encounter hands spread too far apart or a foldback problem (which TrapperJack suggests can be switched off on the electro).

 

So given all this, it seems to be too much trouble to split for non-LH Bass. At least I haven't found a good solution that works all the time. Maybe with 88 keys on your PC3 it's more workable than my 73?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jazzwee]

On the LH Bass, someone who's taking lessons from Tony Monaco learned to first do 1-5-8-x for each chord, ending with some approach note.

 

Even on the blues, this can be almost a two octave thing and I hear so much said about keeping the bass lines to an octave due to splits and such.

 

I see Tony Monaco going all over the place and playing it like a real bass so, what are the strategies (sample approaches) for keeping it within an octave?

 

 

[Jazz+]

Using inversions you can keep the range of 1 - 5 - 8 bass style very narrow, you leave out 8 frequently, thus simply 1 - 5

[Jazzwee]

This is working out -- the one octave plan for bass. Feeling more natural.