Keyboards in guitar-based blues

[WesG]

Your "moment to shine" is when you enable 3rd harmonic percussion.. IMHO.

 

I don't play blues much, but when I sit in with a band, I like to just bring an organ. It looks nice, sounds great, and for me it creates a lot less "what should I play" stress. I just know where to go better with an organ, and feel more confident playing solos with longer notes.

 

A lot of that is skillset, though. I can add texture a lot better with organ, which is how I like to roll. I'm not a flash guy, and I'm not fast. I know guys who noodle quietly on piano constantly, under solos, under singing...just not my thing.

[StringBeanJake]

More fun with 6ths (intervals and chords):

 

One movement you hear on a lot of blues songs is the 6 chord to the 9 chord. In G, chord notes from low to high:

 

GBE to FAD (over I chord)

CEA to BbDG (over IV chord)

Etc...

 

This is the sound on Stormy Monday Blues and Cold Sweat (James Brown version, the horn riff) for instance.

 

A nice simple 6th interval motif that works over Stormy Monday amongst many others, again in G and over the I chord:

 

(Bb)->B-G (above the B) -> A-F

 

Note: Play the Bb then roll on to the B natural, keep this held then hit the G above. Now move the interval down one tone from B-G to A-F. Move the whole pattern up a IVth and a Vth for the IV and V chords respectively.

 

I think you can hear this on the Allman's version of Stormy Monday.

 

Finally a classic and simple cliche for both piano and organ, using just two 2-note chords. For a G blues, notes low to high:

 

DG -> DBb (roll/trill the DBb continually)

 

Play this rhythmically with say 2 down beats on the DG, then hit the trilling DBb. You hear this all over the place, all the Hammond greats have used it, but for me the master exponent is guitarist Grant Green in his soul-jazz period.

[Dr88s]

OP here again.

 

My ongoing sincere thanks for your DETAILED answers.

 

I'm familiar with modes, scales, etc. but I still need to THINK about them alot before what I am playing makes sense. I think there is tons of material for me to experiment with here. And I think I should decide whether I should stick to piano or organ.

 

I like the idea of organ where you can play less but fill in textures with drawbars, swells, leslie, etc.

 

I will update you as I delve into this deeper.

 

As always, I love this forum.

[DanL]

I like having both an organ and piano sounds available. While either works on just about any blues tune, it's fun to change it up depending on the groove/tempo. I throw in some Rhodes/Wurly as well.

 

Knowing the theory part is one thing, but the improv part, not just soloing, but including how you lay down the groove behind the singer or soloist, simply takes time. The more you do it the better you get.

[JeffLearman]

After you've had a chance to work out the stuff posted above, find a local blues jam or two to frequent. A surprising number often don't have keyboard players, so if you bring your rig you can play most of the night and get lots of practice quickly.

 

[Mr. Nightime]

^^^^^^^

THIS

 

When I was just starting to learn how to play blues, there was a jam that happened 2 nights a week. There was a CP-80 and a B3 on stage, with no one else to play them. I got to play the entire night twice a week, with some very good players. I learned a LOT about working with others, groove, fills, rhythms.

 

The experience was invaluable

[bluzeyone]

Hello. Well given that you are a classical player and a sight reader, you have my envy and respect Quick question for you is can you play by ear? The blues is an art form deeply based on emotion. I live close to Chicago and the blues and r&b scene is pretty thick. I was at this gig years ago on break and this cat said it so hard it stuck with me

He said "jazz is more complex to play, but the blues are emotionally harder to play.

Not meaning to sound like a hippy but playin the blues, there you are up on a stage in front of a bunch of strangers and you and your instrument become a journal of your most painful secrets. And that journal is wide open to everyone in that club/room ect. Not easy to do but very fulfilling when done.

I could take the notion to describe pentatonic scales and comping chords but all thats going to do is make you a carbon copy of so many blues players that are playing "empty notes".

My all means take all of the advice on this thread regarding the language behind blues music because there are some outstanding players in this forum. I'm just saying no one walked in your shoes. You have your own blues to say/play

By keeping that in mind it will make what you say/play more meaningful..something the listener will feel.

[Jazz+]

Play your right hand like on page 66 in the book "Improvising Blues Piano" by Tim Richard... it's a blues in G called "Blues With Pickups"...

[Jazz+]

Number one rhythm pattern:

 

http://www.mattwarnockguitar.com/images/2011/08/Charleston-Rhythm-e1312110125277.png

 

Typically voice the chords with the root or the 5th in the lead.

 

(The 5th of the I chord is the 9th of the IV chord and also the root of the V7 chord)... (The root of the I chord is the 5th of the IV chord... see where that is leading?)

[Dr88s]

Hello. Well given that you are a classical player and a sight reader, you have my envy and respect Quick question for you is can you play by ear?

 

Don't envy me too much; perhaps you missed the 'I can play most things from sheet music GIVEN ENOUGH PRACTICE TIME'

 

I can play any melody or monophonic line by ear very easily. I can not make out voicings or even determine definite intervals when listening to blues - obviously I can immediately sense if something is major or minor or has a dom 7th or not, but beyond that especially when there are runs with a pedal tone (so common in blues) my ear gets lost. It's even harder when listening to organ as drawbars can add 3rd and 5th overtones dynamically, but that's a topic for another thread...

 

 

[Dr88s]

After you've had a chance to work out the stuff posted above, find a local blues jam or two to frequent. A surprising number often don't have keyboard players, so if you bring your rig you can play most of the night and get lots of practice quickly.

 

Found a local blues jam weekly on Thursdays which I am mustering up the courage to try. First thing, though, is that I think I'll just practice some of the new techniques above to youtube backing tracks making sure I have a handle on both fast and slow songs.

[DanL]

After you've had a chance to work out the stuff posted above, find a local blues jam or two to frequent. A surprising number often don't have keyboard players, so if you bring your rig you can play most of the night and get lots of practice quickly.

 

Found a local blues jam weekly on Thursdays which I am mustering up the courage to try. First thing, though, is that I think I'll just practice some of the new techniques above to youtube backing tracks making sure I have a handle on both fast and slow songs.

 

Don't muster the courage, just do it! I play a Thursday blues jam a couple times a month as time permits. I'm almost always the only keyboard player there and like learjeff said, you can pretty much play all night. The point of a jam is to let people of all skill levels play, so don't be intimidated. We've had 15 year old guitarists and 65 year old lady bassists who just learned how to play come up, they got the same support the seasoned guys get. It's a lot of fun and a great way to network.

[CEB]

Do it. That is how you learn it.

 

Don't sweat the petty things, Pet the sweaty things.

 

 

[JeffLearman]

Number one rhythm pattern:

 

http://www.mattwarnockguitar.com/images/2011/08/Charleston-Rhythm-e1312110125277.png

A lot of the guitarists at local jams tend to maul the 1, so I very often do a figure like this but with a rest on one, coming in on 2. I tend to play guitar that way too, esp at these jams. The first time I shared the stage with a world-class player (we're lucky he frequented the jams) I kept colliding with him -- turns out he does the same, sliding in on the backbeat or something. I had to change my approach and jump in on 1!

 

 

I can not make out voicings or even determine definite intervals when listening to blues

I bet you'll find you get a lot better at it after learning some good voicings and getting used to how they sound. But I know how you feel.

 

Just the other day I was trying (once again, after failing about 30 years ago) to cop from Joe Sample's piano part on Joni Mitchell's "Centerpiece" (sandwiched inside "Harry's House" on "Hissing of Summer Lawns"). I love the way that guy plays, but I just can't quite get the voicings he's using on some of the chords. I believe they're two-handed ones, and the left hand is causing the confusion. The underlying harmonic structure is simple so I'd have thought it would be easy but alas no.

[humannoyed]

Sometimes I feel I have to punch out like a guitarist in these situations just to be heard!

 

 

fixed! :grin:

 

seriously though...don't resort to violins

[Six-string-man]

 

Don't sweat the petty things, Pet the sweaty things.

 

 

 

This is great! Can I steal it for a signature on another forum I use?

 

I had to check to see who posted, I thought it was wmp!

 

 

SSM

[keysofchaos]

what/how you play all depends on what's going down - completely different when your guitar player's blasting out SRV's Tightrope vs. tickling out Percy Mayfield's Danger Zone (just to name a couple extremes). both blues, but night and day. And are you just gonna comp or are you gonna step out a bit? One size does not fit all! As many have said here, just listen, immerse yourself in those that have already mastered the art, find a voice (or two) that suits your ability level and the style of your band then after that, don't overthink it! just close your eyes and feel it!

[Al Coda]

Leon Russell Nicky Hopkins

 

and don´t forget Max Middleton

Max

 

A.C.

[Dr88s]

what/how you play all depends on what's going down

 

are you just gonna comp or are you gonna step out a bit? One size does not fit all!

 

Valid point and good question.

 

I am not currently in a blues band. As a hobbyist, I find myself playing with new people every few months. Whenever someone unfamiliar joins, it seems like the go-to comfort zone for most people is 12-bar blues. Thus, I never know if it's fast, slow, ripping guitar, etc. before the fact.

 

Maybe it's easier for drummers and bassists (and maybe even guitarists) than it is for keyboardists, but the other members seem to think that knowing what to play of keys is as easy or natural as dialing my home telephone number. I actually find it MUCH HARDER than figuring out chords to an even unfamiliar song by ear and comping a bit.

 

I can solo decently enough to fake it for one trip around 12 bars usually in the blues scale. I don't like soloing though. I prefer to learn those tasty fills and INTERESTING comping to add something to the songs.

 

[JeffLearman]

Blues is easier than music.

[Baldwin Funster]

Blues isn't a musical style, its a lifestyle. Blues music is what you do while you are living through it.

[stoken6]

Maybe it's easier for drummers and bassists (and maybe even guitarists) than it is for keyboardists

 

No - simply that keyboardists actually care about not drowning out the rest of the band.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Jazzmammal]

Exactly, if we have the amps for it it's very easy to do. Both piano and especially organ are full range instruments from the lowest bass to the highest treble. Organ can smother and piano has such a sharp attack it can really clash with a guitar rhythm part if you're not careful. If we don't watch it we can easily overplay everybody and then it sounds like a fight in a junkyard.

 

One thing to watch out for as a noob to the blues is when a keyboard player shows up at a jam people tend to expect you to really know your stuff. I'm being very general here, there's lots of exceptions but keys players tend to be more schooled and more technical than the other players. Not always of course but lots of times that's the case so people expect certain things from a keys player. Good guitarists as opposed to the wannabe guitar hero types are thrilled to have a good keyboard player to take the load off them. The guitarist can then focus on the proper guitar hooks for a particular tune and they expect you to fill in a lot of the rhythm and groove parts plus take a screaming B3 solo or rockin Jerry Lee Lewis type of piano thing. And yes, piano is just as big in the blues as organ is, definitely switch it up on certain songs if you can.

 

Bob

[I-missRichardTee]

Blues is an artform... many do it at jams... but few do it at a high level. So strive to listen to those Blues players that you gravitate to. Emulate them.

Blues come naturally to me.. BUT I have not played them in a Blues band since I was a kid. So even old Tee needs to bone up on Blues.

Of note... I have my biggest problem with Blues on the V chord. I have no issues with the I and IV chord, but the introduction of the V chord, can mess with me.

I try to ignore the minimal harmonies of Blues as much as possible... to me that is a secret to playing Blues, try to get out of harmonic thinking. I generally succeed at this. Having not transcribed Blues, I think I want to, to see what Hendrix BB King, Stevie WOnder Ray Charles, Ronnie Cuber, Benson, Muddy, the other 2 Kings, do on the Blues ( and many more ) when they reach the V chord.

Also of note, "Stormy Monday" has this progression in G: G C G G.. C C. G Am Bm Bbm D7 Eb7 D7 G etc.

how do you handle the trickiest part of this tune, imo the D7 Eb7 D7 ?

Again, my approach is: it is better to NOT outline the chord of the D and the Eb because it removes you from the G Blues tone center.

Although ( hopefully an exception to my little "rule" of avoiding those harmonies) I just heard in my head, Dave Fathead Newman playing exactly what I said I try to avoid!... he DID outline those chords in Unchain My Heart... So much for theory on Blues.

Discuss!

edit

For all keyboard players.. I do not know about you, but for me the TONE I get, is critical to playing the Blues with conviction.

Picture an effeminate voice saying in a proposed bank robbery "Stick'em up"!

Or a Nerd saying "I have a gub" lol

[video:youtube]http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/224555/Take-the-Money-and-Run-Movie-Clip-Gub.html

[mmartinez]

Holding down 7th chords on organ or rhythmically plunking 7th chords on piano gets old really fast.

 

You're talking about comping the blues? You need to reharmonize those passages. I-IV and I-V stuff. You can do this if even the other instruments are not.

 

combine simple rehamonization with inversions / different voicings.

 

 

[theGman]

Yes, novice blueser, you CAN do it; go to those jams...get it into your soul, immerse yourself!

 

Yes, playing the blues is, indeed, an art form...THEN, one day, when you least expect it, the Grand Demon of Blues will grant you entrance into the age old fraternity, inhabit your soul, and you will finally truly know that playing the blues is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death!

 

Life is just a place where we spend time between gigs!

 

Paul

[Bottom End]

Reese Wynans played for SRV and many other Texas blues guitar slingers, and whether he's accompanying or soloing, his parts mesh perfectly, give him a listen.

 

Albert Collins had a KB on many of his albums who fit in just right, and if you can find a copy of "Showdown" Collins' band back him and two other fret burners yet the keys make their presence known.

 

Mofro's keys player does a great job as well.

[Jazzmammal]

Love Reese but he's a big bite for a noob to try to take in at first. Listen to him sure but try not to focus on his killer solos, try to listen to the comps, just get a feel for it.

 

Greg Allman is a good one to listen to because while he's solid and tasty he isn't a burner.

 

Bob

[Dr88s]

I'm going to derail my own (now dormant) thread way OT.

 

I have an uncanny ability to remember TV commercials from my childhood and youth, especially when there was any kind of music involved. They will pop into my head at the strangest moments.

 

Thinking and listening to the Blues this past week, I am plagued by an old Pillsbury commercial that I can not get out of my head. Thanks to Youtube for having just about anything that I ever looked for.

 

[video:youtube]Ai3EDIa7PZY

[Threadslayer]

Greg Allman is a good one to listen to because while he's solid and tasty he isn't a burner.

 

Bob

Well put.