Is live jazz thriving or dying in your city?

[zephonic]

I notice you're posting from Redondo Beach. Where do you find jazz these days around the South Bay? 30 years ago there was Howard Rumsey's Concerts By The Sea, The (original) Lighthouse, Annabelle's, Sausalito South and several others... actually it was a pretty vibrant jazz scene. These days not so much.

 

I know of nothing in the South Bay, just the Lighthouse in Hermosa and they only do Jazz on Sunday afternoon, I think.

 

But Dreamchilde just told me there is some stuff happening around here, so...

 

I usually cruise out to West LA, the valley or inland.

 

[Jazzwee]

I got offered a gig at the Lighthouse but it's very early (like 6-8pm on a Wednesday I think) and bring your crowd kind of thing. The pay wasn't much (typical) so I didn't pursue it. Lighthouse was famous but obviously the crowd it draws must not be the same as the old days.

 

I'm actually not aware of anything in South Bay myself. But out here a little more north, a new jazz place opened up on Lincoln Blvd.

 

 

[Philip Clark]

Has anyone who lives in L.A. (Jazzwee, Ferris, Dreamchilde, etc.) been to Blue Whale in Little Tokyo?

 

I haven't been yet. I've been meaning to catch Mark DeClive-Lowe there the past few times he's rolled through to no avail.

[Philip Clark]

I got offered a gig at the Lighthouse but it's very early (like 6-8pm on a Wednesday I think) and bring your crowd kind of thing. The pay wasn't much (typical) so I didn't pursue it. Lighthouse was famous but obviously the crowd it draws must not be the same as the old days.

 

I'm actually not aware of anything in South Bay myself. But out here a little more north, a new jazz place opened up on Lincoln Blvd.

 

 

Yeah, the Lighthouse does Jazz really early now. At night, you can expect Raggae, Blues, Rock, Soul and even Country. Their long-standing reputation as a Jazz club has taken a back seat for their desire to compete with all the other meet-market clubs on the pier.

[Jazzwee]

Just to give a sense of the usual Jazz activity in L.A., this is the Go-to Website.

 

http://www.lajazz.com/

 

I used to post my gigs here but I don't think it made much difference so I stopped doing it. But clearly there's a lot that goes on.

 

DreamChilde/Zephonic -- I just remembered that one of the Hotels nearby LAX started featuring some Top Level jazz. Radisson, I think (this is new). Then there's 4 Seasons, Crowne Plaza.

 

 

[marino]

Marino

It's strange, but most of the most influential italian jazzers are living and working in Paris. Any explanation?

I see it simply as a case of going where the work is. Musicians like Stefano Di Battista and Riccardo Del Fra have been linked with the French scene for a number of years, and Rosario Giuliani has a deal with Dreyfus.

I think that some French labels still have the will of developing their artists during a period of time, and deal with concert management as well - which is almost unheard of in Italy these days.

 

Also, I think that the French have this image of Italian musicians as being their "wild cousins" so to speak, so historically speaking, they've always enjoyed a good reception in France - and not only in the jazz field of course. There are some excellent musicians in France, obviously, but perhaps there's also a perception of Italian artists as being more "soulful", more directly expressive.

 

 

[Jazz+]

Anecdotal reports are pretty unreliable, imo.

[Jazzwee]

Anecdotal reports are pretty unreliable, imo.

 

Are you referring to me Jazz+? I gave nothing anecdotal. Drop by at my gigs this week. My set list is pretty straight ahead mostly.

[Joe Muscara]

Anecdotal reports are pretty unreliable, imo.

I tend to agree. I started to write something but realized I was all over the map, not many clubs, lots of friends who do jazz gigs, some festivals, not a lot of big name artists come through, but some do, several artists who came from here now big (Glasper, Moran), etc. IOW, I have no idea.

 

However, I think that it's still an interesting topic.

[ITGITC]

 

I think this is the ideal business model: Blues Alley - Washington, DC.

 

And I wonder if there are any other business models for a jazz venue that would break-even, let alone make a profit.

 

 

[The Wind]

 

And I wonder if there are any other business models for a jazz venue that would break-even, let alone make a profit.

 

 

Well from reading the yelp reviews of the Village Vanguard and Blue Note in New York, it seems they are almost fleecing the patrons. Very poor customer service, high prices. Lots of complaints.

 

The jazz club owner here who does an annual tour group thing to NY had some negative things to say.

 

Here's the whole story if you want to read about it:

 

http://cweeds.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/the-goods-on-the-famous-night-at-the-village-vanguard/

[Jazzwee]

Hey Wind, I know you do solo piano. Have you tried playing a combo? Just to get away from the "background music" gigs?

 

My recent Solo piano gig reminds me why I stay away from that...makes me feel like I have to use the "Service Entrance".

 

Besides, I could have played anything (and I did) and I don't think anyone cared what I did...

 

[I-missRichardTee]

The Wind Yeah, wallpaper ( servant's entrance ) music is what it is... people need to hear their conversations, rather than piano. If you are not quite strong, you will feel the air being sucked out of you, esp over the passage of time.

I got to be "real good" at it... " soft as you wish, maam" ( Actually, being asked or told about your volume, is a faux pas with these folks- so you learn to play so low that they won't ask you to turn down, even once)

Problem with this... it is seldom fun, because you cannot hear yourself over the din. Psychologically hard to be ignored or to assume you are ignored.

The final problem, when you are in a band, you are so accustomed to not being heard, you have to find your voice again, and the courage to say it loudly.

[David R]

Musically, live jazz is thriving. Lots of great players and very creative things happening here in Montreal.

 

Unfortunately, a recent rise in noise complaints have made it difficult for many of these events and venues to continue operating. Noise complaints often lead to investigation of alcohol licenses, and the liquor board here belongs to the special kind of Québécois bureaucracy. One club was on the verge of shutting down, and many others have received repeated complaints. We're not the only city that this is happening to...

[Reezekeys]

Apropos of all this is a very recent series of Facebook posts I saw from the great bassist Ron McLure, bemoaning losing a very long-running gig he shared with his girlfriend and a few other pianists (Ron plays piano too). The gig was at a McDonalds in New York!! Can you imagine trying to play solo piano in a McDonalds? What a soul-sucking experience.

 

I live about an hour from Manhattan but do almost zero "real playing" gigs there. Lately I've heard scary stories about "pay to play" clubs, the capper was an artist booked at a club who, after her set, was presented with a bill for the cover charge!!

 

My impression of the "scene" in NY is that yes, there are still the young kids who come here with that burning urge to play in the "jazz capital", and they willingly put up with the bullshit because they don't have mortgages and families yet! Most of the really good (older) players I know have moved out of NY. They have Broadway gigs or tour with name acts, so they do sometimes play low-bread gigs in NY, but strictly for fun; they can afford to and don't care about the money. Since a lot of really good players live outside the city, there are actually a few spots in the "burbs" to hear some top-shelf players. But, NOBODY I know of is, or IMO ever will make any kind of "living" strictly playing jazz in this area! That ship, if it ever existed, sailed a long time ago!

[Moon Zero Two]

Not just jazz... Live music in General has died out in my little town.

 

[SK]

I think this is the ideal business model: Blues Alley - Washington, DC.

 

And I wonder if there are any other business models for a jazz venue that would break-even, let alone make a profit.

Played there many times, and glad they're still going. Even Blues Alley is not immune to the economy or the expectations from commercial music... they don't take as many chances now and book more 'pop/jazz' acts if they pull in a crowd.

 

It seems most creative areas, except in technology, are taking a hit these days. Fortunately, there remain pockets of strong jazz support (like in Virginia: Charlottesville, and surprisingly after a long time, Richmond.) Another great jazz club is Smalls in NYC - their website has free streaming every day.

 

Creativity doesn't just stop, and creative musicians can't be kept down... for some of them, pop music is a gateway drug to deeper things.

[I-missRichardTee]

Apropos of all this is a very recent series of Facebook posts I saw from the great bassist Ron McLure, bemoaning losing a very long-running gig he shared with his girlfriend and a few other pianists (Ron plays piano too). The gig was at a McDonalds in New York!! Can you imagine trying to play solo piano in a McDonalds? What a soul-sucking experience.

 

I live about an hour from Manhattan but do almost zero "real playing" gigs there. Lately I've heard scary stories about "pay to play" clubs, the capper was an artist booked at a club who, after her set, was presented with a bill for the cover charge!!

 

My impression of the "scene" in NY is that yes, there are still the young kids who come here with that burning urge to play in the "jazz capital", and they willingly put up with the bullshit because they don't have mortgages and families yet! Most of the really good (older) players I know have moved out of NY. They have Broadway gigs or tour with name acts, so they do sometimes play low-bread gigs in NY, but strictly for fun; they can afford to and don't care about the money. Since a lot of really good players live outside the city, there are actually a few spots in the "burbs" to hear some top-shelf players. But, NOBODY I know of is, or IMO ever will make any kind of "living" strictly playing jazz in this area! That ship, if it ever existed, sailed a long time ago!

 

Davey Schnitter seemed to suggest similar sentiments, in a chat we had about 10 years ago. BS about PAYING to play, what nonsense.

Besides, let's get real here. NYC was not the birthplace of many of the greats. Many of the top players came from the South or Detroit or Chicago etc. NYC itself was a nuclear center that ATTRACTED these artists to migrate there, but not their actual place of growing up.

[The Wind]

Hey Wind, I know you do solo piano. Have you tried playing a combo? Just to get away from the "background music" gigs?

 

My recent Solo piano gig reminds me why I stay away from that...makes me feel like I have to use the "Service Entrance".

 

Besides, I could have played anything (and I did) and I don't think anyone cared what I did...

 

hey wee, I do play in a band but we have yet to pursue gigs. The members play in other groups as well and have day jobs, so $ isn't the issue.

 

I actually prefer solo piano gigs. Better pay and more control. I have never felt like I needed to use the "service entrance".

 

You are right most of the time they don't even care what you play. I did a private party where they requested Christmas tunes, I threw in tons of jazz and even pop songs and no one noticed.

 

I think because I come from a corporate business background I don't take crap from anyone and people can see that. So I seldom have issues with those who hire me.

[Jazzwee]

Hey Wind, the difference though is the feel of the gig itself. I rarely take "Background music" gigs. Usually they're one shot casuals and so have no bearing on longetivity.

 

Instead I like gigs where the audience comes because of the band and return each time. You have an audience that participates and listens. You create a band with an identity and the audience follows you around. Then you don't need to look for gigs. All you do is announce the date of your next appearance

 

On the background gig, you are ignored. On the "spotlight" gig, you play loud, people pay attention, and give lots of tips. And instead of feeling like a servant, you feel like a local star.

 

As you know, even a combo could be background. But when you're in the spotlight, you're allowed to be loud. So it's impossible to ignore you.

 

 

 

[Baldwin Funster]

I'm not that hip to the jazz scene here in Columbus Ohio but the blues scene sure has tanked.

 

 

[nadroj]

I dunno how it's been in the past, but currently there's something on every night of the week in our local Jazz bar, which is pretty often packed out. There are also weekly open jams in several pubs, as far as I'm aware.

You can also find a lot of fusion bands playing at some of the city's "dirtier" venues, most of which are very hit and miss. There's also the annual jazz & blues festival, which pretty much turns every music venue within 5 miles into a jazz club for a month. Maybe it's just because myself and most of the guys I study with/hang around with are into the scene, but it seems to be thriving here.

[nadroj]

Double post, but my teacher always seems to have up to 3 jazz gigs a week, not only with local folks, but with a lot of guys who come over from the states for the gigs, so that must say something.

[Tusker]

Hartford is hanging on to Jazz by it's finger nails. There are some nice jazz programs so there are plenty of young guns looking to do straight ahead. My son is studying with one of these fellows and he seems to be gigging every night.

 

There is a jazz society where most of the die-hard fans hang out. They do a summer festival, a fall cruise and a few other things. If you post your gig with them, the same set of enthusiastic die-hards will show up and a good time will be had by all. (A lot of love for the craft in this city. Good memories of great musicians.) There aren't enough gigs to keep people busy (yes there is a standard Monday night place and a Wednesday place and ...places that come and go) so many of the better players spend their summers in Europe or elsewhere touring. There is also the lure of NYC, where some of the players go for weeknight gigs.

[zukskywalker]

While I wouldn't exactly call it thriving, there is a robust jazz dynamic happening in and around DC(Baltimore/Annapolis too).

Couple of things.

Maybe it skips a generation(or two) but there are some seriously bad*** kids coming up and into the game that are studying hard, and are very competitive and professional. The venues will soon have to step up their game.

Second thing.

A circle or cycle seems to be coming around as the churches, yes churches, have become active in the jazz scene here. Seems to be an offshoot of the new worship music spike that's producing young musicians that got fire and can't be contained by the congregation.

(Quietly, we wait as the congregation files out. Smiling, waving goodbye, the hall doors close and the musician's turn to face themselves...and bring it. Only every single Sunday.)

Sprinkle in some of the schools that are also actively producing good players and the mix gets even thicker. And this is happening.

Problem IMHO, is the venues and the audiences needed to support them. While there's a few new one's sprouting up(we're working on a new jazz club ourselves), some of the larger venues are in trouble. DC had the Carter Baron Amphitheater, a fantastic stage inside Rock Creek Park. It's still there, but it's run by the National Park Service...which lost it's budget. Back in the day I saw legendary shows, most of which opened with local acts before folks like Blakey, Puento, or the Crusaders took the stage.

It's not dying...it's the venues.(IMHO)

 

(Goodbye the One Step Down, Moores Love and Peace, Mr.Y's, Sweet Chariot, The PigFoot, the Cellar Door, Charlie's Georgetown, Manny's, Jimmy Mcfales, LeNieces, etc.)

 

 

 

[ITGITC]

It's not dying...it's the venues.(IMHO)

 

Ummmmm, not necessarily.

 

Venues need customers to stay afloat.

 

Jazz appeals to a select crowd. Many who are, or have been, musicians.

 

Revenue for a venue primarily comes from sales of alcohol. Food and ticket sales are important, but drink sales are the money-maker.

 

For someone reading this forum, a musician generally in their fifties, how many of us currently venture out to hear jazz?

 

How often? Once a week? Twice a month? Once a month? Once a year on a special occassion?

 

For me, an example may be taking my wife to a venue like Blues Alley (see my post above). We would have drinks & dinner and listen to the music. I would like that, and so would she. I imagine the bill would be around $150, maybe more, maybe less.

 

At $150 I probably wouldn't do this more than a few times a year. So I would be seeking jazz venues that are more affordable.

 

If you and a date go out on a Saturday night for drinks and entertainment, how much do you usually budget? Even if you don't have dinner, drinks and tickets are going to be around $80 ($20/ticket, $20/drinks per person). Otherwise, your options are slim, unless you can find a place that charges less for tickets, you go to a jazz jam session, or you decide to leave your date at home.

 

Venues that don't have all three sources of revenue listed above will have a tight budget to work with. They'll need a larger number of patrons per show just to break even.

 

But it's a small market. I believe the primary criteria could be people who:

 

* Enjoy jazz music,

* Have disposable income and are willing to spend it,

* Actually leave the house from time to time,

* Have transportation and stay sober enough to drive home.

 

So, zukskywalker, when you say, "It's not dying...it's the venues.(IMHO)", I have to ask, "What else can the venues do to stay in business?"

 

The people that have loved jazz or listen to jazz records didn't just all die. They're obviously still around. The question is what will get them to come see your band.

 

Tom

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ed A.]

Hardly any jazz in southern Connecticut. Things are more rock or alternative around here, and even that's not thriving. There is a lot of the acoustic singer/songwriter stuff too. Jazz had it's day, and what's left seems to be a throwback to those days gone by. There's even less innovation in current jazz than there is with rock.

[zukskywalker]

"It's the Venues"

 

This will sound corny, but the solution is at the grass roots level. Not at the big ticket venues. For chrissakes, even the Howard Theater has gone big ticket. Blues Alley is a fantastic "Big Ticket" model, but even the rich can't afford to become regulars. And the new big ticket venues that have recently opened around here are struggling with their investments. Bad math IMHO.

"We", have to first feed the Petrie dishes...the schools(Ellington School of the Arts here), the active churches(Westminister and a few others here), the community radio stations (like WPFW here) and media, the open events, and "the dives". And, you grow the audience, which is turning into us...the boomers. To the real heads, believe it or not, we are still the kids and it's the older folks who really still carry the torch. Which we gotta get it from them before they leave us, and they're checkin' out left and right. We in turn run the torch, and well before checking out, hand it over to GenX(?). That builds the audience for the larger venues, although they will still have to come to terms with pricing (again IMHO).

We're supporting straight ahead jazz here(DC), and to most it's like a breath of fresh air, especially after being force fed the latest commercial flavors all day, every day. And the people love it. With a little luck we will be opening a new jazz venue in DC this spring with a straight ahead jazz charter. Tiny place in northeast DC, no budget, no investors, just a hope and a prayer.

 

In the meantime I'm helping a buddy with a jazz sound company that specializes in audio reinforcement for local jazz events which has been rotating us through all the local jazz players and exposing us to all manner of experiences. Number one being "the pocket", that sweet spot where all the magic is. We avoid "smooth jazz" because there's no pocket, and we run like hell from R&B because it's always a crazy raucous headache from a sound support point of view (old guys carrying subs ain't gonna happen-anymore). Our specialty is the stages priority over FOH, and we make sure that the players like what they hear first.

Audiences are loving "straight ahead" because it's way easier on the ears and because of the cultural things that surround it(dare I say intelligence?). Most everything else around just begins to seem fake and mechanical.

Venues: Identify and push the local talent hard!

(And adjust your prices accordingly.)

 

 

[ITGITC]

"It's the Venues"

 

With a little luck we will be opening a new jazz venue in DC this spring with a straight ahead jazz charter. Tiny place in northeast DC, no budget, no investors, just a hope and a prayer.

 

Venues: Identify and push the local talent hard!

(And adjust your prices accordingly.)

 

 

Good luck.

[GovernorSilver]

I think this is the ideal business model: Blues Alley - Washington, DC.

 

Seems to be a mainstay of the DC jazz scene, but because of the location (Georgetown - not easily Metro accessible, also has expensive parking), high ticket prices, and requirement to buy dinner (also expensive), the audience is limited to well-to-do patrons. Bad combination for attracting a younger crowd. Also, it's not a go-to place for younger, local jazz musicians working to establish themselves.

 

Bohemian Caverns follows a similar model to Blues Alley (upscale jazz venue) but at least is Metro-accessible, and once in a while hosts events featuring local performers (musicians, poets, etc.), as well as Twins Jazz on a smaller scale. HR-57 (http://www.hr57.org/aboutus.html) though still has the best reputation as an incubator of local jazz talent, and an affordable (to younger people anyway) venue for live jazz. The newest venue is a Union Arts, which is unfortunately in a scary looking part of town. But it has attracted young artists looking to set up studios (hence the name), and some established jazz acts like William Hooker have played there.

 

All of these venues are mentioned on the Capital Bop site, which has the best coverage on the DC jazz scene: http://capitalbop.com/