Hiromi Uehara thread

[GovernorSilver]

I don't know, is this result of the Suzuki method of teaching?

 

Highly doubtful that you can blame or give credit to the Suzuki method in and of itself for one's improvisational personality, especially since improvisation is pretty much absent from the method. In today's string education scene, the normal practice is for string players to get their classical training via Suzuki and other classical methods, then study from the likes of Martin Norgaard, Christian Howes, Mark O'Connor etc. - outside of Suzuki - to pick up improvisational skills. Maybe Suzuki slipped in some Bud Powell, Art Tatum, etc. or something into the piano version of the Suzuki method, but I doubt it.

 

My friend here (on cello) is just one player who was given a Suzuki "diet" as part of her training - judge for yourself if Suzuki made her technique-mad:

 

[video:youtube]

 

[HSS]

but it's the pianist that really turns me on. This is where my heart lies. I'm sure I don't have to list the pianists he quoting from but he puts it together wonderfully.

Even though they can both play my azzz into the ground WRG to jazz, I agree with you about the pianist perhaps playing in a slightly more soulful way.

 

IMHO it may have something to do with the Mojo guy seeming to be play precisely on top of the beat while the piano player is playing in a more relaxed manner, breaking it up and nibbling around the edges of the beat thus creating the tension that you hear with good jazz / blues players. But remember the Mojo guy is also doing the Yeoman's work of carrying the bass line as well.

 

[Mark Zeger]

Her chops are ridiculous. They're also just uninspiring. I'd kill to have half her facility, but I'd hope to actually make music with that facility.

 

This.

 

On trumpet boards, there's a musician whose name also brings out strong opinions: Chris Botti. You hear "too laid back", "too slick and polished", "more style than substance", "too soft", etc. Some are the opposite of many Hiromi comments. Most listeners would never know that Botti has crazy technical ability, including a stunning high range, but tempers it with tremendous restraint, maybe too much for some tastes, into a very commercially successful product. Just once, I'd love to hear him blow some "Cherokee" choruses because he'd slay.

[zapper]

While I'm getting older technique and speed don't impress me that much anymore. Need for speed is an illusion.

[16251]

but it's the pianist that really turns me on. This is where my heart lies. I'm sure I don't have to list the pianists he quoting from but he puts it together wonderfully.

Even though they can both play my azzz into the ground WRG to jazz, I agree with you about the pianist perhaps playing in a slightly more soulful way.

 

IMHO it may have something to do with the Mojo guy seeming to be play precisely on top of the beat while the piano player is playing in a more relaxed manner, breaking it up and nibbling around the edges of the beat thus creating the tension that you hear with good jazz / blues players. But remember the Mojo guy is also doing the Yeoman's work of carrying the bass line as well.

I'm not comparing them. I'm just using the piano player as a comparison to the ladies in this thread

[16251]

Her chops are ridiculous. They're also just uninspiring. I'd kill to have half her facility, but I'd hope to actually make music with that facility.

 

This.

 

On trumpet boards, there's a musician whose name also brings out strong opinions: Chris Botti. You hear "too laid back", "too slick and polished", "more style than substance", "too soft", etc. Some are the opposite of many Hiromi comments. Most listeners would never know that Botti has crazy technical ability, including a stunning high range, but tempers it with tremendous restraint, maybe too much for some tastes, into a very commercially successful product. Just once, I'd love to hear him blow some "Cherokee" choruses because he'd slay.

I got a chance to jam with Botti. I was playing at hotel where he was staying and after his concert he was in bar and got his horn. He can play. He also has killer musicians in his band. I see what you're saying but I don't think it's a good comparison. I personally can't find any moments in these woman that reach me.

[HSS]

I'm not comparing them. I'm just using the piano player as a comparison to the ladies in this thread

OK... I got you... I'm tempted to not compare your Beret-wearing piano guy to the ladies because of "vigorousness" of the debate in this thread and its all so subjective anyway. But I'll take the plunge; I'm more comfortable with your Beret-wearing guy's more traditional, "laid back" piano style than the incredible machine gun-like technical fireworks of Hiromi or the other lady (Yuja Wang?). But then I'm an an old fart and very worried about young punks getting on my lawn.

 

I must admit though that Hiromi has the chops and certainly the stage presence that make it fun for me to watch her (and she's kind of a cute too and that doesn't hurt). Jordan Rudess has somewhat similar blazing technical chops but I don't enjoy "watching" him as much. Sorry for being a bit of a hound dog, but it's a privelege that comes with being an old fart Neanderthal.

 

I probably said too much...

[b3halt]

I don't know, is this result of the Suzuki method of teaching? All this technique...is it compensating for something? None of those videos do much for me.

 

Now I'd like to add this to mix to demonstrate that the Japanese culture can find the essence of jazz and make it real. Some of you should find this video familiar. I first saw it here by the organist, who I dig very much (but I'm into piano more,) demonstrating his new Mojo, but it's the pianist that really turns me on. This is where my heart lies. I'm sure I don't have to list the pianists he quoting from but he puts it together wonderfully.

 

Thanks for the compliment.

 

The Suzuki method is not famous in Japan. Surprisingly, I heard more about it in the US. Many kids go to Yamaha music school because they are everywhere in Japan.

 

The piano player Yosei doesn't read music, and he is not familiar with music theory at all. But, he can play. He listens to many recordings of many players and do image training a lot because he doesn't even own a piano.

 

About Hiromi's playing, I think she has a lot of chops which I admire, and I wish I had that much of technical facility. Her compositions are unique, and she has some interesting harmonic ideas. However, I don't dig her playing.

 

I don't hear the jazz tradition from her playing. I mean, I don't hear the language. This is very subjective, so some people might not agree with me. However, the way she plays swing sounds a little bit strange to me. Her swing eighth note is kind of corny. Some of her rhythmic stuff sound uncool to me in the swing context. That's one of the reasons I don't dig her playing. Also, her improvisational ideas are not attractive to me because they don't make me want to transcribe her playing as a musician. This is personal taste in music, and again this is very subjective.

 

I used to listen to the Marian McPartland piano jazz on the radio every week when I lived in Chicago, and she was a guest once. I heard her playing jazz standards, and then I thought she was good at playing her originals.

 

I talked about my impressions of Hiromi's playing with that piano player Yosei, and we almost have the same impressions because we listen to many recordings to learn some ideas for our playing. In other words, we've been learning the language. She is great at what she does, and that's good, but I don't dig her playing. Everybody has different taste in music, and some people like your playing and some others don't, so again it's very subjective.

 

It's always good to see musicians having fun on a stage, and audience get that feel and enjoy the whole thing. That's a great thing, but the way she does is a little bit exaggerated to me.

[lowerhodes]

Perhaps a more interesting comparison would be with Yuja Wang.

And why would that be?

[16251]

Thanks for the compliment.

You're holding down that bass and killing it. You and Yosei complement each other. I must say, it's an odd trio but it works. I agree about Hiromi's phrasing, time, etc. I think most seasoned listeners should feel the same way.

 

I guess she would be considered a cross-over artist. She's a classical player who can make jazz palpable for the average person. I'm not thrilled that those people are not learning about the rich history of jazz but maybe some of them will snap out of her spell and go looking for the truth.

[Jazzed]

Some of the folks in this forum get caught up in hating on technically advanced players who cut loose and just let it all fly, complaining about lack of "soul"... Hiromi's got soul. Just because it's not the same soul as a Horowitz or a Monk or a Hancock, doesn't mean it's not there...

It's funny you list Horowitz with Monk and Hancock when making this point. He was known for his ridiculous technique and energetic style of playing, which are adjectives that have been floating around this thread for Hiromi. Monk and Hancock are on the other side, players who don't play with crazy chops (Herbie doesn't, Monk couldn't).

 

I'm quite sad that I didn't get to see her Trio Project this summer in Toronto. Mostly because it was a double-bill with The Bad Plus with Joshua Redman.

I was there and it was the best I've ever heard her sound, I do think her playing has 'matured' a bit, I guess. I think Anthony Jackson is an excellent bassist for her.

 

Furthermore The Bad Plus + Redman was disappointing, which is unfortunate, the headline seemed so promising. It's like TBP is so tight among themselves they didn't seem to know how to make room for Joshua Redman or something. I hated being disappointed by a Redman concert because I so love his playing, but luckily I got to see him not long before playing a duo concert with Brad Mehldau in what was one of my favourite performances ever.

 

I have as much respect for her as I do Jordan Rudess - they both do amazing things that I couldn't begin to fathom doing myself, though they both struggle with getting caught up in the "wow" demonstration at the expense of the song...

Really? I think Hiromi is a way better artist than Rudess by virtue of her compositions alone.

[Griffinator]

Really? I think Hiromi is a way better artist than Rudess by virtue of her compositions alone.

 

Having never heard any of Rudess' original compositions (just his work in DT and in his brief stint with the Dregs), I can't make a judgement about his writing skill.

[Dana.]

Perhaps a more interesting comparison would be with Yuja Wang.

And why would that be?

I'll let you mull it over for a little while.

[Dave Ferris]

Regarding Chris Botti-I believe Billy Childs plays with him, or at least he did at one time.

 

Regarding the 80s-heck bring 'em back. I've never made as much $$$$ playing music since...

[Mark Zeger]

Regarding Chris Botti-I believe Billy Childs plays with him, or at least he did at one time.

He still does.

 

The Hiromi/Botti compare-contrast I was trying to make is both have great technical ability. One puts it on display very often, the other very little. Both are polarizing figures among those their instrument communities. Hiromi makes the difficult seem difficult. Botti makes the difficult seem easy.

[Jazz+]

There is so much BS being spun here by her critics that I will let the music speak for itself:

What, exactly, is the BS? If you're going to call something out, you need to get specific and debate with words, otherwise I'm not watching over 30 minutes of videos.

 

The BS, IMO, is in calling her a soulless wanker. She has feel. She's verbose in her solos and possibly a bit histrionic in her actions/facial expressions, but to say that she's all chops and no heart is to dismiss without carefully listening.

 

Of course, folks managed to run Jordan Rudess right off the forums with the same kind of nasty, dismissive attitude, except they disrespected him directly to his face...

 

I don't pretend to be a great pianist. Hell, I don't even pretend to be a good pianist. I know better. Too many people on this forum that can play circles around me, never mind the famous people like Hiromi and Chick and Thelonious. I guess being humble about my "craft" makes me tend to be a bit more respectful of people who are out there doing it on the biggest stages.

 

Maybe you really are a better player than she, and you can haughtily sit there and tell us what a no-talent showboating wanker she is from a position of being able to exceed her chops. Good for you if you can. I can't.

 

Wow, Jordan Rudess left this Forum because of the nasty, dismissive attitudes he encountered? I am not surprised.

[Dana.]

Says the guy who's accusing me and others of spinning BS. Don't act so indignant, dude. We get it: you're Hiromi's #1 fan. Ready to move on now? I am.

[zapper]

Wow, Jordan Rudess left this Forum because of the nasty, dismissive attitudes he encountered? I am not surprised.

 

+1

[Justin Havu]

Oops...

 

Let me just say, I didn't mean to start a war at all, but it goes to prove that one person's taste in music can be different from the next person. I got introduced to Hiromi through a live radio show that she did in the boston area around the end of 2009, and I can honestly say that I've never heard "jazz" music that insane before. I only have a couple of her albums, "Time Control" and "Beyond Standard," and while I thoroughly enjoy some moments on those particular albums, there was an equal amount of stuff that I didn't enjoy. Then I came across the Youtube clip that I originally posted, with Anthony Jackson, and one of my all-time favorite drummers, Simon Phillips, and was blown away by the musicianship, and I never thought it would blow up like this. It's that musicianship that got me interested in jazz in the first place, and it led me into checking out other stuff, like George Duke, Chick Corea, Dave Brubeck (RIP), just to name a few. That being said, I now have a greater appreciation for the genre, and it all started from Hiromi. Now, I've grown to appreciate different styles and genres of music, and to me, that is the ultimate goal.

 

Not to get too off-topic, but another example is Gotye. I would have never heard of his first two independent albums, had it not been for the overplayed "Somebody That I Used To Know." But I love his writing and his musicianship. Again, for me, it's all about developing a strong appreciation for different types of music and not being too close-minded.

[SK]

Stepping out of 'semi-retirement from internet forums' for a moment to say:

 

When anyone talks about Art Tatum, it's always about technique. There's no condemnation - his musicality is never called into question. His unique technical ability was obvious - that's what everyone loves and remembers him for. Technique is part of the 'badge' of being a pianist.

 

Hiromi has the right to musically express herself the way she wants to (which won't satisfy every taste); she's still musically growing, and naturally she uses her unique technical gift in the process.

 

No one disputes her skills. I can't think of a player, past or present, who would surpass her basic chops, period although "technique" is also more than playing fast or loud and soft it's articulating the dynamic nuances in-between.

 

(Subjective opinion warning) Most high energy, chop-oriented players tend to leave me a bit cold musically. JMO and who cares? :idk When all the intense subjective debates are over, all anyone is actually saying is they "like" something, or they don't.

 

No one is ever required to 'like' anything, but we should be glad we have such rare talents among us and appreciate them for what they are.

[Joe Muscara]

Steve,

 

I wonder if the issue at times is, when someone sees a player with technique or ability that's impressive or they wish they had, they feel like it's going to waste.

 

IOW, we want to like the player on an objective level, but cannot on an emotional level and that disappoints us.

[orangefunk]

Stepping out of 'semi-retirement from internet forums' for a moment to say:

 

When anyone talks about Art Tatum, it's always about technique. There's no condemnation - his musicality is never called into question. His unique technical ability was obvious - that's what everyone loves and remembers him for. Technique is part of the 'badge' of being a pianist.

 

Really great post Steve.

 

I guess its all to do with the passage of time. I have read several Downbeats and Jazz Journals from the 60s when there is a lot of flak about Bill Evans and Art Tatum to name just two examples.... so I maybe in years to come Hiromi will get her dues too

 

 

[16251]

... so I maybe in years to come Hiromi will get her dues too

[SK]

Steve,

... we want to like the player on an objective level, but cannot on an emotional level and that disappoints us.

I do understand that, Joe. I don't know what to add to what I've said (and don't want to type too much), but:

 

Technical players dazzle and some leave me (and others) cold. We can't like everything (with everyone on the 'same page'). But when we don't like something in someone's playing (especially on the high level playing of Hiromi), we shouldn't dismiss it all as irrelevant, when there are far less talented players who don't fall under the microscope. Then it just becomes a contest of tastes (like 'my tastes are better than your's' )

 

For the record, I am not a Hiromi fan, but I definitely respect her talent and efforts, especially relative to a lot of players 'in the field'.

[Griffinator]

Wow, Jordan Rudess left this Forum because of the nasty, dismissive attitudes he encountered? I am not surprised.

 

Actually, the guy who gave him the worst time is no longer a member of this forum. **he who shall remain unnamed**

[JohnH]

I haven't really heard her but I read her interviews and love her attitude. Love her enthusiasm when she is playing a cool lick and lookin at the crowd as if saying "hey isn't this a cute little cool thing I'm doing ?" Also have stolen from her that she mentions practicing keyboards by tapping her fingers on any surface- good tip. A beautiful female keyboard player fom Japan??? I'm in love.

[jogger]

I have a classical pianist friend who criticizes other classical players for his own artistic reasons, who unlike him have established careers as recording artists. To me, opinions like the saying you'll never please everyone in the audience are true. But, I think any musician of merit able to actually get the deserved attention has paid some big dues whether you like it or not. My feeling is criticize all you want as long as YOU can play it. No one who consistently works at their craft IMO stops developing.

[Joe Muscara]

My feeling is criticize all you want as long as YOU can play it.

Who are you, my mother? "Can you do better? Don't criticize them, then!" http://blue-funk.com/NonBandPictures/smileys/tongue.gif

 

For the record, my mother never said that. I've heard other people's mothers say that, and their annoying kids.

[jogger]

That's smart

[kanker.]

IMy feeling is criticize all you want as long as YOU can play it. No one who consistently works at their craft IMO stops developing.

What stage of development is regurgitation? At what point are you obligated to make music?