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Roland V-Combo VR-09


whitenoise

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I happened upon this thread while researching the VR-09. I have to say that HammondDave, you are a pain in the a**. Your whole objective seems to be to rail against Roland. GOD!! If you have an axe to grind, call them and b!tch them out, and get it off of your chest. If you're such a purist, why are you even on this thread?! I really just wanted to read objective opinions *from people who have laid hands on the product*, not an on-going tirade! It just gets annoying to read PAGE AFTER PAGE AFTER PAGE AFTER PAGE of you're obsessive ranting. People like you are what turned me off of forums a few years back.

 

To Craig and others that used this thread for it's *intended purpose*, thanks for your time and your opinion. I decided yesterday to go to Sweetwater and purchase this board, and so far I'm relatively happy with it (coming from a Nord Stage 2 with a DX7 on top). It's sort of like going from a BMW to an Acura- the BMW is uber, but expensive and not necessary. The Acura is pretty nice, but I won't pull my hair out if it gets a scratch or ding. That's how I feel about the Stage 2- it's pretty awesome if not a bit overrated (but no drawbars- i've never gotten used to the buttons, so I use the morph wheel, which is surprisingly rather satisfying). But, I'm afraid to gig with it because I'm afraid of a scratch or ding! So I bought a Kawai ES100 for bottom (really a nice board for straight piano, and decent EP's, etc), and the VR-09 for the top (organ, ep's, supplemental sounds). I am not crazy about the keys- they're fast, great for smears, and very responsive, but a bit too small for my fingers. But I'll adjust and probably love them. I'm going to spend the next weeks comparing this rig to the Stage 2/DX7, but so far it's very competitive. The VR-09 through my Vent is actually REALLY good. I think I am liking the ES100 more than the Stage 2 for AP's. plus there are 8 of them.

 

FYI- I own a Hammond A100 and Leslie 142 for comparison, which probably colors my objective opinion regarding the action on the VR-09.

 

I am playing jazz/r&b/pop/funk/soul, and I think my new rig will be really good for this. and if one of these boards gets a ding or scratch, I won't be totally distraught.

 

oh, and side note- I do not like the clavs on the Stage 2. The voicing might as well be on a budget arranger.

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Do you have a DX7, or a DX7II? I'm actually planning to use my II-FD as a lower manual with my VR-09 at some point. I always felt that the original DX7 action was particularly great, I suspect the organ division designed it.

 

BTW, Craig is no longer with us, but you can find him on the Yahoo Clonewheels group.

 

I have been playing my VR-09 quite a bit lately. Between it and my K&M 18880, I have a nice lightweight jam rig. I am fine with the VR-09 keys for organ, my usual rig is an L111, and am starting to be okay with them for rock and roll piano, too. My biggest complaint so far is with my expression pedal. At some point I will buy a Yamaha FC-7, or a Crumar Mojo pedal, to go with it.

 

One thing I have noticed in this thread is that people want to pick this board apart. It's not perfect, but that doesn't mean it's terrible. It's a terrific value for the money, IMO. Besides the Hammond and EP sounds, I also like the transistor organ and many of the synth sounds. I especially like how easy it is to shape the synth sounds to suit the song at hand.

 

Wes

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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Do you have a DX7, or a DX7II? I'm actually planning to use my II-FD as a lower manual with my VR-09 at some point. I always felt that the original DX7 action was particularly great, I suspect the organ division designed it.

 

BTW, Craig is no longer with us, but you can find him on the Yahoo Clonewheels group.

 

I have been playing my VR-09 quite a bit lately. Between it and my K&M 18880, I have a nice lightweight jam rig. I am fine with the VR-09 keys for organ, my usual rig is an L111, and am starting to be okay with them for rock and roll piano, too. My biggest complaint so far is with my expression pedal. At some point I will buy a Yamaha FC-7, or a Crumar Mojo pedal, to go with it.

 

One thing I have noticed in this thread is that people want to pick this board apart. It's not perfect, but that doesn't mean it's terrible. It's a terrific value for the money, IMO. Besides the Hammond and EP sounds, I also like the transistor organ and many of the synth sounds. I especially like how easy it is to shape the synth sounds to suit the song at hand.

 

Wes

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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I have the DX7. I really love the action, key size, and throw. A bit heavy, but it's a quality piece (limited functionality of course).

 

I have a Roland EV-7 expression pedal, and it works really well with the VR-09. It is very reminiscent of my A-100 pedal action!

 

I agree, it's super easy to shape sounds and feel on the fly. easier, in fact, than the Stage 2!

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I've decided that I cannot take the action of the VR-09. It's just too flimsy, the keys are slightly undersized. There's just no substance. I'm returning it, and getting a Nord Electro 4D. The other candidate would be the Hammond SK1, but I am confident that the 4D would hold it's value better, and be a bit more solid.

 

The VR-09 has reasonably good sounds, small and light package, and really is a very good value for the money. I like the immediacy of the controls as well. But coming from a Stage 2 and A100, it's just too cheap feeling for my taste. I actually have a hard time playing it. I don't understand why they can't made a keybed like Yamaha made 30 years ago!? I'd be glad to pay another couple hundred more for good action.

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I don't understand why they can't made a keybed like Yamaha made 30 years ago!? I'd be glad to pay another couple hundred more for good action.

You mean like the DX7? That was $1995 in 1983. That would be about $4700 today. Maybe that helps explain why a keyboard of that quality is not in a $995 keyboard. ;-)

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Interesting, I have an A-100 also and mostly have had no problem adjusting to the VR-09's keybed. Everyone's different and you have to play what you are comfortable with. There was a time when I absolutely could not play piano on an unweighted kb but eventually I finally got comfortable doing so. One thing I find odd about the VR-09's keybed is that it seems too easy to press down a note accidentally when your just lightly resting your fingers on the keys in preparation to play a chord. Maybe it's just me but this has never happened to me on any other keyboard on it's default setting. I guess I should look into adjusting it's touch sensitivity.

Hammonds:1959 M3,1961 A-101,Vent, 2 Leslies,VB3/Axiom,

Casio WK-7500,Yamaha P50m Module/DGX-300

Gig rig:Casio PX-5S/Roland VR-09/Spacestation V3

http://www.petty-larceny-band.com

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Not the board- the keybed. keys, hinges, action.

I don't understand why they can't made a keybed like Yamaha made 30 years ago!? I'd be glad to pay another couple hundred more for good action.

You mean like the DX7? That was $1995 in 1983. That would be about $4700 today. Maybe that helps explain why a keyboard of that quality is not in a $995 keyboard. ;-)

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I agree with you- that's part of my problem. They're like hair-triggered. I've spent a good deal of time trying to adjust the touch sensitivity, and it's just too coarse of adjustments. I don't find a way to adjust how far into the throw the note sounds. But I reiterate that it's really quite a good board- a tremendous value. Lightweight, good sounds, lots of easy controls. I just don't like the action.

 

Interesting, I have an A-100 also and mostly have had no problem adjusting to the VR-09's keybed. Everyone's different and you have to play what you are comfortable with. There was a time when I absolutely could not play piano on an unweighted kb but eventually I finally got comfortable doing so. One thing I find odd about the VR-09's keybed is that it seems too easy to press down a note accidentally when your just lightly resting your fingers on the keys in preparation to play a chord. Maybe it's just me but this has never happened to me on any other keyboard on it's default setting. I guess I should look into adjusting it's touch sensitivity.
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One thing I find odd about the VR-09's keybed is that it seems too easy to press down a note accidentally when your just lightly resting your fingers on the keys in preparation to play a chord. Maybe it's just me but this has never happened to me on any other keyboard on it's default setting. I guess I should look into adjusting it's touch sensitivity.

 

Yes, can be a tad of an issue.

 

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One thing I find odd about the VR-09's keybed is that it seems too easy to press down a note accidentally when your just lightly resting your fingers on the keys in preparation to play a chord. Maybe it's just me but this has never happened to me on any other keyboard on it's default setting. I guess I should look into adjusting it's touch sensitivity.

In organ mode, the trigger is high by design ("quick firing keyboard") -- maybe that's what you're noticing? (AKA "it's a feature, not a bug.") But if you're seeing it in non-organ sounds, then that's not the (entire) answer.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Not the board- the keybed. keys, hinges, action.
I don't understand why they can't made a keybed like Yamaha made 30 years ago!? I'd be glad to pay another couple hundred more for good action.

You mean like the DX7? That was $1995 in 1983. That would be about $4700 today. Maybe that helps explain why a keyboard of that quality is not in a $995 keyboard. ;-)

The point is that low-cost keyboards aren't likely to have high-cost actions in them. (Another issue is weight... the DX7 was 31 lbs., and other boards with that action were on the heavy side as well, at least by today's standards.)

 

Roland does makes some very nice feeling actions, but they are in keyboards that are notably pricier and/or heavier... the VR-700, Jupiter 50, and Jupiter 80 use 3 different synth/organ actions, they are all nicer than the VR-09. It would be interesting to know how one of those actions might have affected the weight and price of the VR-09. But it seems clear that the mission of the VR-09 was to be as light and as cheap as possible. It is their bottom-of-the-line board of its type, so it's not surprising it has their worst action. If you want something better, Roland has other models... though nothing with quite the VR-09 feature set, so you always lose something when you gain something else!

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I don't find a way to adjust how far into the throw the note sounds.

That's not generally something that's adjustable, or only in a very limited sense, because it's a matter of physically where the sensors are placed. I think the Roland is fixed at the higher point for organ and the lower point for everything else. The Nord is only slightly more adjustable as it gives you the option of using the "everything else" trigger point for organ as well.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Agreed. In my humble opinion, Roland would have had a much more competitive product had they simply installed a better keybed and charged accordingly. It would still be a lowish cost alternative to the Electro or SK1. I agree with you about the other models as well- not quite all of the features : (

 

Not the board- the keybed. keys, hinges, action.
I don't understand why they can't made a keybed like Yamaha made 30 years ago!? I'd be glad to pay another couple hundred more for good action.

You mean like the DX7? That was $1995 in 1983. That would be about $4700 today. Maybe that helps explain why a keyboard of that quality is not in a $995 keyboard. ;-)

The point is that low-cost keyboards aren't likely to have high-cost actions in them. (Another issue is weight... the DX7 was 31 lbs., and other boards with that action were on the heavy side as well, at least by today's standards.)

 

Roland does makes some very nice feeling actions, but they are in keyboards that are notably pricier and/or heavier... the VR-700, Jupiter 50, and Jupiter 80 use 3 different synth/organ actions, they are all nicer than the VR-09. It would be interesting to know how one of those actions might have affected the weight and price of the VR-09. But it seems clear that the mission of the VR-09 was to be as light and as cheap as possible. It is their bottom-of-the-line board of its type, so it's not surprising it has their worst action. If you want something better, Roland has other models... though nothing with quite the VR-09 feature set, so you always lose something when you gain something else!

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the trigger point does not appear to be easily adjusted- BUT I don't own an iPad, so perhaps many of these things can be fine tuned? If that's the case, I damn sure am not going to purchase an iPad I don't need, just to be able to tweak a board that could have easily been better from the factory. Plus, any time I spend tweaking is time away from practicing
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I like gigging with my VR-09's. They're quick and easy to set up and operate. Easy to carry around even in their road cases. I don't have to risk a high dollar investment to go to work, and that's what they are; they're my work tools, and they provide a means to make a living.

 

I can't gloss over what I do - I'm a stinkin lowdown bar band musician, and nobody in any audience I play in front of would know a B3 from a toy piano anyway. However, I get paid just the same, and my VR-09's have already returned their investment many times over.

 

You just need to keep this keyboard in it's proper perspective.

 

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the trigger point does not appear to be easily adjusted- BUT I don't own an iPad, so perhaps many of these things can be fine tuned? If that's the case, I damn sure am not going to purchase an iPad I don't need, just to be able to tweak a board that could have easily been better from the factory. Plus, any time I spend tweaking is time away from practicing

No, there are no additional parameters on the iPad editing app that affect action. As I said, you can't really have software adjustment for something that is actually based on the physical locations of the sensors. It would require a physical change to the keyboard to change that behavior.

 

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I agree this keyboard has potential, but it never made it out of the music store for me.

I still have the original VR760 which had an outstanding keybed.

If Roland made a bug less version with better keybed and included sample feature of FA06 I'd be waiting on the curb for the doors to open. :drool:

I liked the VR760, it was just too darn heavy! But what's buggy about it? I wished it had some more features in terms of its MIDI implementation, and some more flexible split/layer functionality, but I wasn't aware of bugs. I only had one for a few weeks, though.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Ah! Got it. Yeah, the VR09 is an "almost" for me as well. I haven't followed every bit of discussion on it, but I was under the impression that the complaints are more a matter of design limitations than bugs per se. But we all have our wish lists. I love the idea, but it didn't hit my checkpoints either.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I'm on the verge of getting a VR-09 purely as a backup for my NS2. I sincerely hope I don't need to invoke the backup on a gig, but it would surely be better than the alternative if I had some kind of a flat line situation with my NS2.

 

I will also get to know the VR-09 and possibly use it as a rehearsal and small gig sit-in rig...but ultimately, my backup keyboard should be either the NE4D or a NS2 Compact...the VR-09 is much more affordable and I can practically stash it away in my car full time.

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Yeah, checked out the menu and owners manual last night, not much there for keybed adjustment parameters, just "initial touch" which, as mentioned, does nothing to correct the trigger point. I compared the key throw on the A-101 to the VR-09 and the the Hammond keys definitely offer more resistance. In other words, you have to press them slightly harder on the Hammond to get a note to sound. Just something to be aware of and get used to if you are OK with the rest of the VR-09 board.

Hammonds:1959 M3,1961 A-101,Vent, 2 Leslies,VB3/Axiom,

Casio WK-7500,Yamaha P50m Module/DGX-300

Gig rig:Casio PX-5S/Roland VR-09/Spacestation V3

http://www.petty-larceny-band.com

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I can certainly see your point. I'm playing mostly jazz, and for me it just doesn't work.

 

I like gigging with my VR-09's. They're quick and easy to set up and operate. Easy to carry around even in their road cases. I don't have to risk a high dollar investment to go to work, and that's what they are; they're my work tools, and they provide a means to make a living.

 

I can't gloss over what I do - I'm a stinkin lowdown bar band musician, and nobody in any audience I play in front of would know a B3 from a toy piano anyway. However, I get paid just the same, and my VR-09's have already returned their investment many times over.

 

You just need to keep this keyboard in it's proper perspective.

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Just another example of how Hammond, back when the Tonewheels were built, got everything right for jazz and rock playing...so be it mostly accidentally!

Hammonds:1959 M3,1961 A-101,Vent, 2 Leslies,VB3/Axiom,

Casio WK-7500,Yamaha P50m Module/DGX-300

Gig rig:Casio PX-5S/Roland VR-09/Spacestation V3

http://www.petty-larceny-band.com

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Latest update: So I took the VR-09 back to Sweetwater today (I live about 4 miles away). So I go into the *large* display room, and begin to check out the Nord Electro 4D, and right below it is the Nord Stage 2 (which I currently own). Greg comes in and greets me. I tell him I'm sorta interested in checking out the Hammond SK-1 (in my mind I've determined to walk out with an Electro 4d). There is no SK-1 out on display, so he calls the on-site warehouse. In 5 minutes we have one up and running. So here I stand, with a VR-09, Nord Electro 4D, Hammond SK-1, and Nord Stage 2 sitting in front of me. It is Tuesday morning, and there are very few people around. I have total freedom to do what I want as loud as I want.

 

The following may seem a bit rambly, but it's how my bizarro mind analyzed the data:

 

First of all, the Electro 4D is a disappointment. The VR-09 is *VERY* competitive. The organ on the 4D (singular- only ONE set of tone-wheels) to my feeling is a bit too artificially boosted in the higher frequencies. I mean it's really pretty good, but it does not have the warmth and organic spread and harmonic depth. I don't get why everyone raves about the rotary simulation- it's no better than anything else out there.

 

The EP's on the 4d are reasonably decent. Versus the VR-09, they sound very similar, with the 4D having a bit more controllable dynamic response. Again with the "initial touch" setting on the VR-09. but sound wise, the VR-09 has an edge (if you can stomach the action/keybed).

 

Acoustic piano wise, it's mezzo e mezzo (half and half in Italian, lol). They both sound about the same. I think the Roland sounds slightly fuller. If you like bright (like Yamaha), you'd probably slightly prefer the 4D.

 

NOW, enter the SK-1.

First of all, the organ does indeed KILL. Immediately. No comparison. end of story. Hammond (whomever owns them now) has had enough of other brands doing the tone wheel thing!).

 

EP's. This is where I was REALLY critical. I spent about an hour comparing the three. Okay- I do NOT understand all of the reviews and forum posts all over the internet that I've read in my decision making process. There is NO WAY IN HELL the Nord even comes close to the SK-1 on the EP's. Doesn't matter which model- Rhodes, Wurli, or Clav. The SK-1 destroys the 4D. And when it comes to the Clav, the 4D sounds like an 80's Casio- even against the VR-09. It's laughable to me that I spent so many hours reading review after review and post after post of people raving about the EP's on the 4D. They are overly bright, lack dynamics, and don't breath. If pressed, I could probably name at least a dozen boards/workstations that are 10 years old that could sack the 4D's ep's.

The acoustic piano on the SK-1 is actually pretty good. with a proper weighted controller, it would be decent.

 

Action wise (including physical controls), the 4D is a GIANT downer. The whole board does not have the quality feel I've come to expect (objectively speaking, I expected it to be a smaller version of the Stage 2). Yes, the drawbars are clicky (which I *like*), the SK-1's drawbars do not click (but feel more substantial), but the drawbars on the 4D feel CHEAP. I think I could easily bend the posts/break the plastic if I were in a pissy mood. The action on the 4D is just about the same as the VR-09, without the divers. I was so convinced that I would just *love* the action on the 4D. NO WAY. so cheap/plasticy feeling (wondering if both companies source the same key beds?).

 

The action on the SK-1 is the closest I've ever felt in comparison to my mighty A100. I'm sitting here right now screwing around with both, and aside from the fact that my A100 has over 60 years of wear, the SK-1 feels very very similar. The keybed feels very substantial and solid. Nice size keys (I think nearly identical to my A100), good weight, very minimal lateral movement. These things were built to LAST.

 

Control wise, my favorite is the VR-09. GOD- it's just SO NICE to be able to decipher what a control does, reach for it, turn/press it, and it work. The Electro 4D comes in second. The SK-1 has a learning curve. I think i'll get used to it, but it's not straightforward.

 

Size wise, the SK-1 is about as compact as you can get. It's funny- in real life the SK-1 'feels' lighter, because it is so much more compact than the Electro or the VR-09. I say this because spec-wise, they're nearly identical in weight. The VR-09 is a bit lighter yet, but it also feels like I could put a hand on each end and if I twisted hard enough, I could do some damage.

 

As most might suspect, I came home with the SK-1. Aside from the learning curve, this was a no-brainer.

If you're on a budget, get the VR-09. if you can do afford it, get the SK-1. if you just LOVE the color red, get the 4D.

 

Oh, and leslie- I'm thinking I'll keep my trusty gen 1 Ventilator. The rotary on the SK-1 is fairly good, but the Vent still has my heart.

 

re: edits. ha! When you're passionately typing away, it's funny how many little goofs happen!

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I just realized I completely neglected the Stage 2.

 

I definitely prefer the Stage 2 over the Electro 4D (they almost don't sound the same- the 4D sounds like a much cheaper alternative). The Stage 2 is kind of obscenely priced, but it is an AWESOME package. The organ on the 2 is really good, as are the pianos and EP's. I wouldn't say the board sounds like the real thing(s)- sounds like an *extremely* well recorded version of the instruments that you hear on recordings. This may or may not be a good thing, but it makes it easy to have instant gratification when you can sit down and can almost exactly match the sounds you hear on recordings. The only bad thing about that is when you compare it to the real instruments, you quickly realize that it doesn't really sound/feel like an instrument. I really can't comment on the synths- I'm not a synth guy (which is a factor in why I made this move).

 

Now that I have the Kawai, and have spent extensive time comparing the pianos in the Stage 2 with the pianos in the ES100, I can say that the Stage does a lovely job of recreating the sounds of a piano, but it does not have the action/sound/feel like the Kawai does. The Kawai has the action/escapement, the cabinet resonance, on and on. But, in the Stage's defense, they tried to set up the bed to be generally decent for all of the sounds on board. And they did a pretty good job. But I notice now that when I go from the Kawai to the Stage, I have to really fight hard to try to get the same dynamics that come so easily on the Kawai. The dynamics aren't there on the Stage.

 

I still really like the Stage quite a bit, and in a way I'll sort of miss it. It was, for a long time, my dream board. It's cool, quirky, easy, well built, not terribly heavy while still relatively compact, and is easy to get pretty good sounds. If I weren't a jazz/classic R&B guy, I would probably consider keeping it. But, I am L O V I N G my new rig. For 1500+ less, the Kawai ES100 and Sk-1 package is just about perfect. These are *real* instruments. The vibe is unbelievable!

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