daveyb

Yeah, I was very surprised as well. Greg (Sweetwater salesman) explained that in Europe the musical market is a lot more pop/bright sound oriented. The emphasis is on bright and glossy sound. So the Nord stuff is voiced primarily for that market. Seems to have become a new standard in the States to some musicians.

HA!! it was *exhausting*. I was under pressure by my own brain the make the right decision. It gets embarrassing to keep returning boards after a number of days to the same salesman

It's like there are no accidents where quality is involved!

I just realized I completely neglected the Stage 2. I definitely prefer the Stage 2 over the Electro 4D (they almost don't sound the same- the 4D sounds like a much cheaper alternative). The Stage 2 is kind of obscenely priced, but it is an AWESOME package. The organ on the 2 is really good, as are the pianos and EP's. I wouldn't say the board sounds like the real thing(s)- sounds like an *extremely* well recorded version of the instruments that you hear on recordings. This may or may not be a good thing, but it makes it easy to have instant gratification when you can sit down and can almost exactly match the sounds you hear on recordings. The only bad thing about that is when you compare it to the real instruments, you quickly realize that it doesn't really sound/feel like an instrument. I really can't comment on the synths- I'm not a synth guy (which is a factor in why I made this move). Now that I have the Kawai, and have spent extensive time comparing the pianos in the Stage 2 with the pianos in the ES100, I can say that the Stage does a lovely job of recreating the sounds of a piano, but it does not have the action/sound/feel like the Kawai does. The Kawai has the action/escapement, the cabinet resonance, on and on. But, in the Stage's defense, they tried to set up the bed to be generally decent for all of the sounds on board. And they did a pretty good job. But I notice now that when I go from the Kawai to the Stage, I have to really fight hard to try to get the same dynamics that come so easily on the Kawai. The dynamics aren't there on the Stage. I still really like the Stage quite a bit, and in a way I'll sort of miss it. It was, for a long time, my dream board. It's cool, quirky, easy, well built, not terribly heavy while still relatively compact, and is easy to get pretty good sounds. If I weren't a jazz/classic R&B guy, I would probably consider keeping it. But, I am L O V I N G my new rig. For 1500+ less, the Kawai ES100 and Sk-1 package is just about perfect. These are *real* instruments. The vibe is unbelievable!

Latest update: So I took the VR-09 back to Sweetwater today (I live about 4 miles away). So I go into the *large* display room, and begin to check out the Nord Electro 4D, and right below it is the Nord Stage 2 (which I currently own). Greg comes in and greets me. I tell him I'm sorta interested in checking out the Hammond SK-1 (in my mind I've determined to walk out with an Electro 4d). There is no SK-1 out on display, so he calls the on-site warehouse. In 5 minutes we have one up and running. So here I stand, with a VR-09, Nord Electro 4D, Hammond SK-1, and Nord Stage 2 sitting in front of me. It is Tuesday morning, and there are very few people around. I have total freedom to do what I want as loud as I want. The following may seem a bit rambly, but it's how my bizarro mind analyzed the data: First of all, the Electro 4D is a disappointment. The VR-09 is *VERY* competitive. The organ on the 4D (singular- only ONE set of tone-wheels) to my feeling is a bit too artificially boosted in the higher frequencies. I mean it's really pretty good, but it does not have the warmth and organic spread and harmonic depth. I don't get why everyone raves about the rotary simulation- it's no better than anything else out there. The EP's on the 4d are reasonably decent. Versus the VR-09, they sound very similar, with the 4D having a bit more controllable dynamic response. Again with the "initial touch" setting on the VR-09. but sound wise, the VR-09 has an edge (if you can stomach the action/keybed). Acoustic piano wise, it's mezzo e mezzo (half and half in Italian, lol). They both sound about the same. I think the Roland sounds slightly fuller. If you like bright (like Yamaha), you'd probably slightly prefer the 4D. NOW, enter the SK-1. First of all, the organ does indeed KILL. Immediately. No comparison. end of story. Hammond (whomever owns them now) has had enough of other brands doing the tone wheel thing!). EP's. This is where I was REALLY critical. I spent about an hour comparing the three. Okay- I do NOT understand all of the reviews and forum posts all over the internet that I've read in my decision making process. There is NO WAY IN HELL the Nord even comes close to the SK-1 on the EP's. Doesn't matter which model- Rhodes, Wurli, or Clav. The SK-1 destroys the 4D. And when it comes to the Clav, the 4D sounds like an 80's Casio- even against the VR-09. It's laughable to me that I spent so many hours reading review after review and post after post of people raving about the EP's on the 4D. They are overly bright, lack dynamics, and don't breath. If pressed, I could probably name at least a dozen boards/workstations that are 10 years old that could sack the 4D's ep's. The acoustic piano on the SK-1 is actually pretty good. with a proper weighted controller, it would be decent. Action wise (including physical controls), the 4D is a GIANT downer. The whole board does not have the quality feel I've come to expect (objectively speaking, I expected it to be a smaller version of the Stage 2). Yes, the drawbars are clicky (which I *like*), the SK-1's drawbars do not click (but feel more substantial), but the drawbars on the 4D feel CHEAP. I think I could easily bend the posts/break the plastic if I were in a pissy mood. The action on the 4D is just about the same as the VR-09, without the divers. I was so convinced that I would just *love* the action on the 4D. NO WAY. so cheap/plasticy feeling (wondering if both companies source the same key beds?). The action on the SK-1 is the closest I've ever felt in comparison to my mighty A100. I'm sitting here right now screwing around with both, and aside from the fact that my A100 has over 60 years of wear, the SK-1 feels very very similar. The keybed feels very substantial and solid. Nice size keys (I think nearly identical to my A100), good weight, very minimal lateral movement. These things were built to LAST. Control wise, my favorite is the VR-09. GOD- it's just SO NICE to be able to decipher what a control does, reach for it, turn/press it, and it work. The Electro 4D comes in second. The SK-1 has a learning curve. I think i'll get used to it, but it's not straightforward. Size wise, the SK-1 is about as compact as you can get. It's funny- in real life the SK-1 'feels' lighter, because it is so much more compact than the Electro or the VR-09. I say this because spec-wise, they're nearly identical in weight. The VR-09 is a bit lighter yet, but it also feels like I could put a hand on each end and if I twisted hard enough, I could do some damage. As most might suspect, I came home with the SK-1. Aside from the learning curve, this was a no-brainer. If you're on a budget, get the VR-09. if you can do afford it, get the SK-1. if you just LOVE the color red, get the 4D. Oh, and leslie- I'm thinking I'll keep my trusty gen 1 Ventilator. The rotary on the SK-1 is fairly good, but the Vent still has my heart. re: edits. ha! When you're passionately typing away, it's funny how many little goofs happen!

I can certainly see your point. I'm playing mostly jazz, and for me it just doesn't work.

the trigger point does not appear to be easily adjusted- BUT I don't own an iPad, so perhaps many of these things can be fine tuned? If that's the case, I damn sure am not going to purchase an iPad I don't need, just to be able to tweak a board that could have easily been better from the factory. Plus, any time I spend tweaking is time away from practicing

Agreed. In my humble opinion, Roland would have had a much more competitive product had they simply installed a better keybed and charged accordingly. It would still be a lowish cost alternative to the Electro or SK1. I agree with you about the other models as well- not quite all of the features : ( You mean like the DX7? That was $1995 in 1983. That would be about $4700 today. Maybe that helps explain why a keyboard of that quality is not in a $995 keyboard. ;-) The point is that low-cost keyboards aren't likely to have high-cost actions in them. (Another issue is weight... the DX7 was 31 lbs., and other boards with that action were on the heavy side as well, at least by today's standards.) Roland does makes some very nice feeling actions, but they are in keyboards that are notably pricier and/or heavier... the VR-700, Jupiter 50, and Jupiter 80 use 3 different synth/organ actions, they are all nicer than the VR-09. It would be interesting to know how one of those actions might have affected the weight and price of the VR-09. But it seems clear that the mission of the VR-09 was to be as light and as cheap as possible. It is their bottom-of-the-line board of its type, so it's not surprising it has their worst action. If you want something better, Roland has other models... though nothing with quite the VR-09 feature set, so you always lose something when you gain something else!

I agree with you- that's part of my problem. They're like hair-triggered. I've spent a good deal of time trying to adjust the touch sensitivity, and it's just too coarse of adjustments. I don't find a way to adjust how far into the throw the note sounds. But I reiterate that it's really quite a good board- a tremendous value. Lightweight, good sounds, lots of easy controls. I just don't like the action.

Not the board- the keybed. keys, hinges, action. You mean like the DX7? That was $1995 in 1983. That would be about $4700 today. Maybe that helps explain why a keyboard of that quality is not in a $995 keyboard. ;-)

I've decided that I cannot take the action of the VR-09. It's just too flimsy, the keys are slightly undersized. There's just no substance. I'm returning it, and getting a Nord Electro 4D. The other candidate would be the Hammond SK1, but I am confident that the 4D would hold it's value better, and be a bit more solid. The VR-09 has reasonably good sounds, small and light package, and really is a very good value for the money. I like the immediacy of the controls as well. But coming from a Stage 2 and A100, it's just too cheap feeling for my taste. I actually have a hard time playing it. I don't understand why they can't made a keybed like Yamaha made 30 years ago!? I'd be glad to pay another couple hundred more for good action.

I have the DX7. I really love the action, key size, and throw. A bit heavy, but it's a quality piece (limited functionality of course). I have a Roland EV-7 expression pedal, and it works really well with the VR-09. It is very reminiscent of my A-100 pedal action! I agree, it's super easy to shape sounds and feel on the fly. easier, in fact, than the Stage 2!

I happened upon this thread while researching the VR-09. I have to say that HammondDave, you are a pain in the a**. Your whole objective seems to be to rail against Roland. GOD!! If you have an axe to grind, call them and b!tch them out, and get it off of your chest. If you're such a purist, why are you even on this thread?! I really just wanted to read objective opinions *from people who have laid hands on the product*, not an on-going tirade! It just gets annoying to read PAGE AFTER PAGE AFTER PAGE AFTER PAGE of you're obsessive ranting. People like you are what turned me off of forums a few years back. To Craig and others that used this thread for it's *intended purpose*, thanks for your time and your opinion. I decided yesterday to go to Sweetwater and purchase this board, and so far I'm relatively happy with it (coming from a Nord Stage 2 with a DX7 on top). It's sort of like going from a BMW to an Acura- the BMW is uber, but expensive and not necessary. The Acura is pretty nice, but I won't pull my hair out if it gets a scratch or ding. That's how I feel about the Stage 2- it's pretty awesome if not a bit overrated (but no drawbars- i've never gotten used to the buttons, so I use the morph wheel, which is surprisingly rather satisfying). But, I'm afraid to gig with it because I'm afraid of a scratch or ding! So I bought a Kawai ES100 for bottom (really a nice board for straight piano, and decent EP's, etc), and the VR-09 for the top (organ, ep's, supplemental sounds). I am not crazy about the keys- they're fast, great for smears, and very responsive, but a bit too small for my fingers. But I'll adjust and probably love them. I'm going to spend the next weeks comparing this rig to the Stage 2/DX7, but so far it's very competitive. The VR-09 through my Vent is actually REALLY good. I think I am liking the ES100 more than the Stage 2 for AP's. plus there are 8 of them. FYI- I own a Hammond A100 and Leslie 142 for comparison, which probably colors my objective opinion regarding the action on the VR-09. I am playing jazz/r&b/pop/funk/soul, and I think my new rig will be really good for this. and if one of these boards gets a ding or scratch, I won't be totally distraught. oh, and side note- I do not like the clavs on the Stage 2. The voicing might as well be on a budget arranger.