Singers and transposing

[Dave Ferris]

But also, some songs have signature riffs or modalities to the lines that kind of depend on things like being able to slide off a black key onto a white key, and they don't play/feel/sound the same if you need to transpose them to a key where you can't play them the same way, so that's something to think about, too.

 

I've never used and most likely will never use the transpose button. However there is something to be said for this, pertaining to rock, pop and blues styles then more jazz , R&B type jazz or GASB type stuff.

 

I don't know that song Scott was referring to so, showing my colors as the old guy, I'll use a couple of examples where this might hold true.

 

For instance a couple of Beatle tunes probably most know like Lady Madonna or Let it be. Most Beatle aficionados know the lick to LM in A. Say your singer had a low voice and wanted to take it down to G or F, or the female was an alto range and couldn't sing it up an octave and wanted in C or D. Now that piano part/lick is pretty specific and literally makes the tune. It's not that it's technically difficult or harmonically involved in any of those keys, but it won't have the same "ring" to it.

 

I've had to transpose down that signature piano part to Let it be before and again, nothing complex but it just doesn't sound the same.

 

Another one that just popped into my mind was the infamous and universally loved ( ) Don't go changing ..aka Just the way you are. Take that intro part from the original of D down anything more than a step and it sounds bizarre.

 

So while pop/rock stuff is way less harmonically involved then jazz/standardy things, the fact that many of these tunes are built on the *part* or the signature lick, moving them around to a different register on the keyboard doesn't resonate...literally.

 

Regarding Kanker's post about "hearing it". Yes that's the end goal of course. And that end result will happen or be made easier by doing the grunt "work" of transposing songs, sections to a few or all keys. I know it's not what a lot of people wanna hear though...

 

One last thing about transposing contemporary pop/rock tunes that sometimes can be more thorny then standards are the slash chords-like C#/B, Gb/Bb, B/E, etc.

[Dave Ferris]

Non functional chord changes are very difficult to transpose. Like Dolphin Dance, Inner Urge, Bolivia, etc. In this case, I most likely write charts.

 

Some functional chord changes are difficult to transpose too. In fact, Stella By Starlight isn't that easy to transpose. Round Midnight isn't easy either.

 

One of my goals: When somebody calls Giant Steps, I would be able to ask what key he/she plays. I know some musicians do this, and this isn't really easy because in order to say this, you are pretty comfortable to play in 12 keys on Giant Steps... Oh, playing the rhythm change in B is pretty hard too.)

 

While being able to play Giant Steps in all 12 keys or Dolphin Dance or Inner Urge down a half step is certainly desirable and admirable--the reality of that is, you will probably never be in a real world situation where these type of songs will called in anything but the original key. Unless of course you get a singer that writes their own original lyrics to Boliva or DD. And I've been there. Usually my reaction though I try not to show it is...

 

I certainly wouldn't discourage anyone from undertaking a project to learn GS, Moment's Notice or something like Lazy Bird or 26-2 in alternate keys. Heck I had the head to Confirmation in about 8 oddball keys fairly fluent at one time about 10 years ago. But to me it's still just an exercise and time and energy over the long run should be put into developing the original key. After playing many of these songs for over 30 years, I still find new areas for development written as they are.

[SpaceNorman]

As far as selecting a key for a song - far as I'm concerned it's the vocalist's pick. I may not be crazy about it - but I ain't singing it. I've found that even those keys that sound "iffy" to me end up being OK ... I just got play it in that key a couple of times to get used to it. I consider myself fortunate that my sense of "relative pitch" is pretty good - I'm not cursed with "perfect pitch". That said - I'll play it wherever they want it.

 

I'm somewhere in the middle when it comes to the transpose button. I prefer to play everything in whatever key the rest of the band is playing. For most of the pop/rock stuff - I can transpose to/from anything - with just a couple of minutes of effort. I may not play everything fluently in every key - but I can get through it and don't mind the challenge.

 

I am NOT however, a total purist that's opposed to using the transpose key under any circumstances. Under circumstances - I'll use the transpose button and not beat myself up about it. Those circumstances include - a) those situations where I know it in Key X and have to play it RIGHT now in Key Y without having any time to work through the transposition thought process (if that's going to be a regular change - I'll know it in the new key the next time we play it!); b) when I'm playing with a band that "drop tunes" (one group I play with tunes everything down a 1/2 step. Ask 'em what chords they're playing - and they'll tell you E,A,B, etc. - but for anything tuned to A440 - they're playing Eb, Ab, Bb. I hit the global tuning button for that ...

 

Lastly, on rare occasion - if I'm playing what (for me) is a challenging tune - with multiple projects in different keys. In those situations - I may opt to use the transpose button - just to keep it consistent regardless of what project I'm playing with. I don't have anything currently in my repertoire that falls into this category - but it is something I've done in the past - and would do again under the right circumstances.

[AnotherScott]

The only instruments that like A, D, E are the Guitar players and with bar chords it is no consequence for them to change key.

A lot of guitar stuff is hard to move around because they depend on open strings, it's not always as easy as moving bar chords. They can capo up, but not down. And of course, bassists playing stuff that depends on hitting a low E will lose it if you have to lower the key. Sometimes tuning down works, but only within narrow limits... and unless someone has multiple instruments on stage, they can't be switching back and forth between songs.

[Jazzwee]

The only instruments that like A, D, E are the Guitar players and with bar chords it is no consequence for them to change key.

A lot of guitar stuff is hard to move around because they depend on open strings, it's not always as easy as moving bar chords. They can capo up, but not down. And of course, bassists playing stuff that depends on hitting a low E will lose it if you have to lower the key. Sometimes tuning down works, but only within narrow limits... and unless someone has multiple instruments on stage, they can't be switching back and forth between songs.

 

But that's an easy bar chord option. At least for jazz guitar players, it's not a big deal to transpose. Soloing wise, it's even less of a concern.

 

We pianists have it really hard on transposition. If you have thumbs on black keys, your movement backward is limited for example. But even then, I swore never to use a transpose key.

 

I haven't used it yet...crossing my fingers...good thing I haven't been asked to play a lick in a new key.

[Bobadohshe]

I find that it really doesn't come down to learning a song in all 12 keys, because once you learn it in several, or at least in 4 keys a 3rd apart, then you've done the mental transposition of the thing enough that it gets much easier to do in the other keys.

 

I used to do this fun exercise with a sax player buddy where we'd play a standard like 'It Could Happen To You', blow a chorus each and then transpose up a 1/2 step, lather rinse repeat through all 12 keys. By the 3rd or 4th transposition it's quite a bit easier.

 

Of course I'm not saying I am the master with lots of tunes readily playable in all keys - I'm really not. But it's not an insurmountable challenge, to get at least some of the GASB learned that way.

[Joe Muscara]

Yeah, what Bobby said. The patterns are similar in similar keys. Learn a few, and you should be able to figure out the rest easily.

[Jazzwee]

I can play Fever, and Route 66 in any key! (and called often enough...)

[Bobadohshe]

Just sat down and tried the same thing with the same tune. What a great exercise. And there's no better way to find out that your C#m7b5 -> F#alt voicings are a little rusty than in the context of a standard when you're playing in the key of A major.

 

Playing standards in different keys is a great way to brighten up some old chestnut and give new life and sound to something.

 

I agree that the standards of the Hard Bop era aren't really tunes you'd want to do this to, but GASB tunes can sound and feel really fresh if you take them to weird keys.

 

I remember this burning version of Girl From Ipanema that Oscar played in the key of Db. Why not?

[Bobadohshe]

Putting it up there allows the melody to speak better on piano the way Oscar is voicing it with the big but light chords. And of course he slays the solo. In Db.

 

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcETI4dsMyc

[Joe Muscara]

Yeah man. I always say, "I ain't afraid of no key!"

 

(to the tune of "I want a new drug," of course. )

[CEB]

Yeah man. I always say, "I ain't afraid of no key!"

 

(to the tune of "I want a new drug," of course. )

 

I fear C major. If I don't have the piece memorized and it is too white it is easy to lose your position if you are keeping your eyes of the score. Bach's Prelude in C from WTC book one comes to mind.

[Jazzwee]

I have been playing this tune called Black Coffee (blues) which singers seem to love. Typically I've been playing it as Eb blues. So it ends up in the key Db. Not a bad key for blues I discovered.

 

As long as I have my iRealB app, it's pretty brainless to transpose to any key. I'm just not that interested in memorizing tunes I will never play instrumental.

 

Singers often bring extremely complex charts with (I hate this the most) bar divisions not divided evenly on the score.

 

I want a fixed number of bars per line and visually always in the same spot. Especially if I've never seen the chart before. And the other thing that irks me is not only the bars are spread all over, but the chords are not placed at the correct beat position. Grrrrr!

 

They're only interested in the lyrics and chords are placed on top of lyrics which I'm not going to be reading.

 

 

[Pale]

 

...

Now that piano part/lick is pretty specific and literally makes the tune. It's not that it's technically difficult or harmonically involved in any of those keys, but it won't have the same "ring" to it.

 

...

 

So while pop/rock stuff is way less harmonically involved then jazz/standardy things, the fact that many of these tunes are built on the *part* or the signature lick, moving them around to a different register on the keyboard doesn't resonate...literally.

 

 

My thoughts exactly! Sometimes it's not only about being able to transpose to another key at singers request, it's about making up a completely new arrangement on the fly because the original arrangement doesn't work in the new key at all.

 

How do you guys deal with that? Are you able to "wing it" in all keys, considering both transpose and "new arrangement" issue?

 

 

Also, at risk of appearing ignorant, what are GASB tunes? It might be language barrier, but I never heard of it, and google says it's either "Governmental Accounting Standards Board" or "Galium Antimonide". My guess is it's neither of those

[b3halt]

The famous version of The Girl from Ipanema (Astrud Gilberto & Stan Getz) is in Db.

 

I guess Oscar Peterson recorded the song in Db because of this. Or there are some other reasons. Obviously, Db sounds darker and I like how it sounds compared with F.

 

By the way, Jack McDuff recorded the song in Db as well. Groove Holmes did in F. I played this song in many different keys, but E and B are kind of hard to improvise.

 

Some keys sound darker or brighter. It also depends on the style of music (I don't like to categorize music though). If you play Chicago blues, you play in D, E, A, C, and G a lot. Occasionally, B and F#. If you play jump blues, you play in F, Bb, and C a lot. The same thing happens with jazz standards.

 

By the way, Jack McDuff played some blues in Db. If you play with big bands, some blues songs are in Db too.

 

Each key has different colors, and I think if you play Gospel, you probably play in Db and Ab a lot because the color of the keys is kind of related to how it sounds.

[Joe Muscara]

Also, at risk of appearing ignorant, what are GASB tunes? It might be language barrier, but I never heard of it, and google says it's either "Governmental Accounting Standards Board" or "Galium Antimonide". My guess is it's neither of those

Great American Song Book. It took me a few passes to realize the acronym as well.

[area51recording]

GASB= Great American Song Book I'm guessing....

[Steveaudio]

I think I will start memorizing the tunes!. This will help with transposing.

 

I am good at reading charts, but not so good at playing by memory or by ear.

 

To play jazz standard type gigs, yeah, you need to get lots & lots of tunes memorized. Most jazz or even "club date" musicians won't want to work with someone who has to look up every tune in the Real Book or wherever. The "transposing on the fly" thing, that gets into a whole 'nother level, so at least memorize the tunes first in the commonly used keys.

 

A (bad) story: I went to a Mel Torme concert in FL about 25 years ago. Big band, everyone had charts of course, mainly local musicians. Then at the end, Torme called for the (local) piano player to accompany him in "What Are You Doing the Rest of Your Life?", in some bizarre key. Unrehearsed, the piano player had no idea this was coming. The Local piano player fumbled it, Mel Torme kicked him off the piano bench, then of course played & sang it perfectly, being used to it in that key. Local piano player thereby humiliated.

 

Some might blame the pianist. I thought it was atrocious, it was a planned out show with charts, that the local pianist had played perfectly, that's what he was hired for, & he was sand-bagged, IMO. And btw, if he

 

Want a guy/gal who can play "every tune in every key"? Then hire them. Want a guy/gal who's great at reading involved charts? Hire them. They're not always the same musicians....

 

Just my 2 cents,,,,

 

 

 

[Bobadohshe]

A (bad) story: I went to a Mel Torme concert in FL about 25 years ago. Big band, everyone had charts of course, mainly local musicians. Then at the end, Torme called for the (local) piano player to accompany him in "What Are You Doing the Rest of Your Life?", in some bizarre key. Unrehearsed, the piano player had no idea this was coming. The Local piano player fumbled it, Mel Torme kicked him off the piano bench, then of course played & sang it perfectly, being used to it in that key. Local piano player thereby humiliated.

 

Brutal! But it DOES happen. That's the point. The best of the best can do it.

[Dave Ferris]

Yeah that Mel Torme story is unfortunate and not at all fair to the pianist. What are you doing troyl is a tough tune to begin with in Am the original, and in many circles not played all that often. I know some top notch jazz pianists in this town that would be hard pressed to transpose that on the spot to an oddball key. I haven't played it in awhile myself, so I'd definitely need a minute to run a few of the tricky spots in my head before just doing it.

 

Yet another added thought--I wonder why Mel would choose another key then A minor for that. He's a tenor and that is a very standard key for a high male voice.

 

Regarding knowing tunes-- Man I did a gig with a younger bass player, probably 30-38, a few weeks ago. He was good player but he had to read EVERYTHING ! I'm sorry but you get to that age, you're an upright player and do jazz gigs, you shouldn't be reading Autumn Leaves, no matter what key. We were backing up a singer who did have charts for almost everything. A lot of it was standard stuff in standard keys but he still looked at every chart..For a trio tune I called Solar, out comes the iPhone with the changes. Ditto Someday My Prince.. So consequently this kid's playing while certainly at a pro level and all, still had a very generic, uncreative, uninspiring quality to it. Which I attribute, in part, to not really knowing any tunes. Man lose that real book and learn some of the music..

[David Loving]

That is a stressful way for the bass player to navigate through a gig.

[Bridog6996]

I think the memorization thing goes for all music. You can't be truly focused on what you're playing if you're having to read at the same time. That's why the top concert pianists, for example, almost never have the music onstage, except in certain circumstances. You learn the ink in practice, then you go out and perform it.

[Jazzwee]

Sometimes though, you may know the chords but the form is forgotten.

 

Is Song for My Father AAB or AABA? QUICK! Don't look.

 

Well suffice it to say, I've had to go with the flow on this and ended up with the bass player having the wrong form. If you're looking at the chart, then the form is clear.

 

In a jazz group that doesn't rehearse (like mine), I'd rather play it safe and have my Iphone/Ipad open for all. I can be macho about not using charts but the audience deserves as perfect a performance as we can provide.

 

The reality though is after the umpteenth time you play the same stuff over and over, it does stick with you so mostly I'm just taking quick glance.

 

But I hate a repeat of playing Windows in B- while one soloist is on Bb-. We sounded really outside that night...

 

 

 

 

 

[theGman]

I transpose half steps up/down with the button, if a one button deal is indeed available, which I guess Nord hasn't yet figured out.

One song which sounds odd in a different key is "Sweet Child of Mine".

 

That would be a good thread: "Which songs just sound wrong and jump out at you if played in a different key?"

 

[jimmymio]

The only instruments that like A, D, E are the Guitar players and with bar chords it is no consequence for them to change key. To the rest of us, it's a bigger deal particularly when a solo is involved.

 

I get your drift but rock guitarists/bassists can get pretty huffy when moving songs away from the original keys of D,A, and E. They often rely on open strings to get a particular sound/vibe. A big rock anthem in E just ain't gonna sound the same played in Eb.

[joeljjison]

Transposing the tune by looking at the chart and calculating "Must go up x amount" on every chord does not help your transposition ability in a sensible way. It's better to think of the chord progression as numbers, and to have a good understanding of harmony, so that you can easily memorise the progression rather than the song in a specific key.

 

In the meantime, rewrite the songs. My reasoning? I'll quote you then offer you an analogy!

 

"Will you re-write the songs in the new keys or will you keep practicing with the original charts transposing on the fly?"

 

This is like a boxer saying 'Shall I bother training and looking for info on my opponent, or shall I just do my best, as it'll be a more hardcore way for me to learn"

 

It's just unprofessional to not do your best to get a good immediate result. Maybe its better for your abilities playing music, but your just risking screwing up, and throwing the singer off, which wouldn't be cool!

 

Save that kind of practice for when you are practicing on your own time.

[JeffLearman]

... and is a big enough leap that you can't easily use mental shortcuts, like if you can if you're just playing a half-step away.

1/2 step transposition is by far the hardest for me. The easiest are a 4th or 5th away. Go figure.

[Joe Muscara]

1/2 step transposition is by far the hardest for me. The easiest are a 4th or 5th away. Go figure.

That's because 1/2 step can be *completely* different, where 4ths or 5ths can be somewhat similar. F isn't much different than C, neither is G. Bb and Eb aren't unlike. etc.

 

That said, I can see the similarity between F and F#, one is all white and the other is sort of the inverse, all black. Or so.

[Outkaster]

I learn how a song sounds - instead of memorizing the changes as numbers or as literal chord names, I learn to hear the song as a whole, the motion of the changes That way transposition is much less of an issue for me. Don't get me wrong - every now and then I have to think about what a change will be when it's a more unexpected change, but in general, I can pull a tune off transposed without much effort.

 

Here's a way to work on that. First, get familiar with the way different changes sound, particularly different turnarounds - ii V I, iv ii b5 V i, iv bVII I, etc.... The more you can just internalize the way common changes sound, the easier it is to internalize songs. Then, when learning the changes to something, only look at the changes for the first 2 or 3 choruses. Try to internalize the sound of the changes, not memorize the chord names. By the fourth chorus, turn the page or just ignore the chart. The more you do it, the easier it gets. You'll be able to learn lots of songs just by listening to them away from the piano.

 

Melodies - that's something else entirely. Transposing melodies is not a skill I've worked on much because generally when I'm having to transpose a song, the singer has the melody. That said, the better you train your ear, the easier transposing melodies becomes.

 

There are plenty of times that I've done gigs where someone has requested a song I've never played, but that I 'know' because I've heard it so much. If I can, I'll play the song, faking the changes and the melody as accurately as possible. It's a fun challenge. It's even harder when it's just me on organ with a drummer

 

This

[CEB]

If you get the 1 right then everything else can be a passing tone.