SOT: Skills of drummers that only can play loud

[Garrafon]

Our drummer is leaving the area to pursue a new job opportunity. So, we have been auditioning drummers. We have had some people that are awful and some that are decent. We have had some come in that are really quite good. They nail the beat, nice fills, learn quickly, can get some funk going, good technical skills, good timing and general sense of rhythm, etc., but they only know how to play at one level - 11 (i.e. really freaking loud)!

 

This caused a discussion among band members about the ability of drummer's. Some think such a drummer is "good enough." And, I guess he probably is to some extent. But, I took the position (and continue to believe) that, even though a drummer might sound great and play well, a drummer who can only play loud is still missing some important qualities.

 

First of course, is a dynamics issue. And that's huge.

 

Second, I personally play better when we are not pounding away. When I have to work hard by pounding the keys to cut through the mix, my muscles tense and tighten, which ruins my flexibility and, thus, ability.

 

Third, wouldn't it seem that a drummer playing that loud is also probably not playing properly from a technical standpoint? For example, when playing the piano, we should be loose. We have all heard about the "fly away wrist." Wouldn't the same apply to drums? And if you are beating the you-know-what out of your drums, can you be playing with the appropriate lightness? It seems to me that the drummers I have always enjoyed most play with what appears to be ease and freely and loosely. But, these guys we see are tight and pound away...and they don't sound bad, but, to me, it's just not the whole package.

 

I'm curious on other people's thoughts.

[kanker.]

Here's another thing - guys who only play loud, particularly when playing an unamplified instrument (drums, piano, trumpet, etc...), tend to slow down when they do have to play quiet.

[ITGITC]

Mr. Garrafon,

 

Drummers are a dime a dozen, and they make ALL the difference in whether you're a star or you suck.

 

Find one that fits all your criteria.

 

Yes. It's just that simple.

 

Tom

 

[Skinny]

I've played with a lot of drummers in the last few years... our previous one played LOUD and way too fast.

 

Our current drummer plays dynamically and doesn't rush. He's a keeper...

 

We used to think "good enough" was "good enough". Not anymore. Don't settle for "good enough". It's not worth it. Or at least in our case, it wasn't.

 

When it got to the point of bar owners coming up right in the drummer's space during a song and yelling him to play quieter, we knew he had to go. We have good business relationships with a lot of bar owners around here, and we don't want to do anything to compromise that.

 

Don't settle for "good enough". It's not good for your performance, your ears, your hands, your rapport with bars/clubs/whoever is paying you.

 

My $.02

 

 

[drawback]

 

When a drummer only plays at one level he isn't playing with the band.

 

 

[Garrafon]

All excellent points, and things I have personally observed. Unfortunately, where we are, drummers (or decent ones anyway) are not a dime a dozen and the good ones are taken (or leaving the area for work...this has happened to us twice in three years).

 

So, we are faced with someone of a choice currently - a solid rock drummer with very good technical skills that bangs the cr&p out of his drums, or a much more laid-back, dynamic drummer who keeps a nice pocket but does not have the technical skills or experience of the other guy. My vote is for the latter. I would sacrifice some technical skill for someone who lays a killer groove and stays in the pocket and works with the band.

[kanker.]

someone who lays a killer groove and stays in the pocket and works with the band.

Those are all the technical skills a drummer needs.

[ITGITC]

Unfortunately, where we are, drummers (or decent ones anyway) are not a dime a dozen and the good ones are taken (or leaving the area for work...this has happened to us twice in three years).

 

Then you need to move.

[Eric Iverson]

A lot of it depends on the musical background of the drummer. Lots of church kids I know only seem familiar with rock, and don't seem to be aware that dynamics other than "loud" and "super-loud" even EXIST! Guitarists mainly (using effects tastelessly), but the drummers are the same way.

At one church where we played, we tried to play upstairs in a smaller room with a low ceiling. It worked OK with me on guitar and a keyboard player - we played loud enough to be heard, but the vocals were clearly audible and the singers didn't have to shout.

When they brought up the drummer and bassist, however, it forced me and the keyboardist to turn up in order not to get buried (not talking about huge amps on 11, but turning up from 2 on my little Fender Princeton to 4 or 5) and then we couldn't hear the singers and they couldn't hear each other. We tried to get them to play softer, and they tried, but after a minute or so it was back to bedlam!

I just can't deal with this sort of nonsense any more... cranky old bastid that I am.....

[timwat]

Agree with all of the suggestions (except needing to move....)

 

Push hard for the second drummer you describe, no matter what objections your bandmates present. Unless you're doing Dream Theater covers.

 

edit:

 

Two most talented drummers I've played with recently are similar in their sensitivity to dynamics and ability to control same. One is a straight jazz guy, but the other is a young 20-something kid who also plays death metal. He's the drummer in my contemporary jazz band. Has a wonderful attitude, humility, hunger to learn other styles and has been completely open to suggestions, correction, and guidance. I'm really thankful we found him. No, I'm not posting his name here.

[Tonysounds]

Groove above all else.

[Garrafon]

Two most talented drummers I've played with recently are similar in their sensitivity to dynamics and ability to control same. One is . . . is a young 20-something kid who also plays death metal.

 

Funny you should say that. Our current drummer played death metal and, thus, when we originally brought him in, I was deathly (no pun intended) afraid for my ear drums. He had the double kicks and the whole 9 yards. But, boy was I wrong. He was a great blend of all the above. He could kick it when it needed kicking, but he could back off when it needed backing off....all the while keeping the essential pocket. We are sorry to see him go (darn economy!).

 

Tom: Didn't you have a wedding for a daughter not too long ago? If so, I assume there is room for me in your house should I decide to move? And I'm sure you will have this drummer waiting for me:

http://www.drummerworld.com/pics/drum/dpa34/HilaryJones1.jpg

[The Real MC]

Drummers are like guitar players and singers - the good ones are few and far between.

[johnchop]

+1 what Tony said.

 

And +1 Hilary Jones, just because.

[Mr. Nightime]

I've gotten really lucky. The drummer in my band not only knows dynamics and pocket, has the technical skills needed for the wide variety of songs we play, AND is a great singer, but he's truly a nice guy.

[ITGITC]

Tom: Didn't you have a wedding for a daughter not too long ago? If so, I assume there is room for me in your house should I decide to move?

 

Mr. Garrafon, you know you are always welcome to visit me in Raleigh. We discussed this years ago; if you recall.

 

However, it was only a few days after my daughter moved out that my wife claimed her room to be the new SEWING ROOM. Since I have my Man Cave downstairs, I couldn't deny her that space. Currently the newly appropriated SEWING ROOM holds a thirty year old Dell computer and an aquarium full of snails, a Betta fish, and miscellaneous freshwater mutants.

 

Unfortunately, as long as I have lived in this area I have never found a drummer who looked like that photo - and played with dynamics. I am afraid you will have to bring her along when you come.

 

Please call first so I can stock up on cold beer and BBQ. That and fried food are all we eat in this part of the USA.

 

Tom

 

 

 

[Ken Beaumont]

Make him use these:

 

ISOLATION SHEILDS

 

or find one that uses v-drums.

[timwat]

With all due respect Toano88, I don't dig with either putting drummers in fishbowls or v-drums. The fishbowl thing invariably places additional monitoring requirements in play, still gives the drummer a false sense of what is going on, and doesn't really solve poor musicianship. It just makes it sit in the corner with a dunce cap on.

 

And playing live with v-drums is just anathema to me. I've done it in worship services, but the lack of real acoustic depth is just impossible for most bass players I've worked with to lock into. I had a drummer who just adored his v-drums. After gigging with him on them, I made it clear they would never be welcome in my band.

 

Church settings are different that working bands in a lot of respects - often, you deal with the musicianship cards you're dealt, and sensitivity to volume concerns sometimes necessitate the two solutions you've noted. But a gigging band? I think that's different.

 

Just my opinion, certainly doesn't mean I'm right.

[Garrafon]

I agree with you timwat. I'm not into the v-drums either. Someone called to audition and said that was all he had. We declined to audition him (maybe we were wrong, but I don't think so). A drummer I played with years ago (and who we gave the boot because of volume) started playing with another band and they MADE him play v-drums so they could control his volume. But, he is no longer with them either.

 

I agree that a shield or electronic drums is not the realy answer. It's only a finger in the dike (no gutter comments please).

[Ken Beaumont]

I won't play with a loud drummer period. Not anymore I value my hearing, same goes for loud guitarists. I can live with v-drums. If samples are good enough they sound just fine live.

 

It just makes it sit in the corner with a dunce cap on.

 

Exactly! Bad behavior shouldn't be tolerated.

[Mr. B.]

Guess it is time for a person who played drums of all styles for 40+ years to chime in. If the drummer plays loud all the time, don't hire him, if he does not know what dynamics are he is gone. If he/she can't play soft tunes as well as louder tunes he's gone, if he/she plays every song with a Led Zepplin beat they're gone. No disrespect at all for John Bonham but too many drummers only play like that. I have even had bass players and guitarists ask why I was playing quieter when the singer was singing and louder when the lead player was playing. I asked, have you never heard of dynamics? I got a blank look. I quit both bands. Every band I ever played with always asked who I had been playing with because I toured as a pro drummer/keyboardist for 30 years. I'm very flashy but play what the music calls for and can sing lead. I would rather play keyboards.

Do not just settle, find a really great drummer who knows how to play.

[burningbusch]

I assume you're talking rock or similar. Drums are your only acoustic instrument and have an omnidirectional sound. If you're playing medium size venues chances are, with a loud drummer, a lot of the acoustic sound is going to leak through even if the kit is mic'ed up. All of the other instruments are directional and are coming through the PA. I think it sounds like amateur hour whenever I hear either an un-mic'ed kit or an overpowering drummer in a rock situation. The best sound is when everyone is coming through the mains--tight and crisp.

 

Busch.

 

[timwat]

Thanks for chiming in, Blue_eyesis. Can't disagree with anything you've said. It just makes it hard in the reality of working bands when you've got gigs on the calendar, an empty drum throne, and no one but Bonham wannabes auditioning.

[Garrafon]

Thanks for chiming in, Blue_eyesis. Can't disagree with anything you've said. It just makes it hard in the reality of working bands when you've got gigs on the calendar, an empty drum throne, and no one but Bonham wannabes auditioning.

 

Exactly....

[area51recording]

I used to enjoy playing with a local group of buddies in a blues band. I wasn't an actual member of the band but had an open invite to play w/them on keys and sax any time I was available. They recently got a new drummer. The new guy's a good player, but bashes the living crap out of everything, changed the whole vibe of the band from happy-go-lucky to kind of, for a better word, "angry". I also got the definite vibe, even tho nothing was said, that keys and sax are not quite "rock-and-roll" enough for these guys any more, like they're trying to be the next freakin' ZZ Top or something. Kind of a drag, I miss playing w/them, but not the way they are now...

[ITGITC]

It's a business.

 

Playing for fun can be... fun.

 

Otherwise, you are there to earn money.

 

If you keep this in the forefront of your mind at all times, you won't put up with a bad drummer; or any other second-rate musician in your band.

 

The drummer and the bassist work together to form the foundation. If you work with a top-drawer guy who can deliver a solid groove, then most any gig will be a pleasure. Otherwise, it's like pulling teeth and you will regret it until the drummer leaves the band - or you quit.

 

Personally, I appreciate a human clock. However, I understand where MikeT is coming from when he sings the praises of his one man band act. Not only can he make more money, but he can control the sound and, as he always states, he doesn't have to put up with the egos and otherwise crazy personalities that often make up a standard band.

 

Of all the drummers with whom I've performed with, I can count on one hand those that really made the gig easy for me.

 

No kidding. I would rather sit at home than to perform with a drummer who can't deliver the goods. And unfortunately, I now believe that really good drummers are harder to find than any other type of muso. They are out there. But they are as rare as hen's teeth.

 

 

[Joe Muscara]

And the real John Bonham had finesse, but most people only think of the heavy stuff.

[longfuse]

I play drums but there aren't many modern drummers that I like or aspire to be like. It's not because I'm stuck in the past musically, it's a genuine dislike for the heavy-handedness that most drummers engage in these days.

 

I could say that they've all been tainted by rock, but I was listening to some Deep Purple the other day and Ian Paice, although heavy for the times, might as well have been playing brushes compared with today's crowd. Again, I don't say this from a 'music was better in them thar days' point of view because I'd never really listened to Deep Purple before: I was curious and some of their albums were on we7.com (totally legal site).

 

And then there's Mitch Mitchell, who was basically a jazz drummer. Does Hendrix sound limp?? You don't have to smash the crap out of a drumset to create rhythm.

 

Another pet hate of mine are funk drummers who can't groove. Again, modern players are too loud. All the originals were, or aspired to be, jazzers and had a surprising lightness of touch. Some of those guys have got heavier over the years as the fashions have changed, and they no longer sound as groovy.

 

I mainly play brushes. I might as well tatoo "I am ghey" on my forehead...

 

 

[DanL]

someone who lays a killer groove and stays in the pocket and works with the band.

Those are all the technical skills a drummer needs.

 

This is what I'd take too.

 

The drummer I play with now has those skills. He can bash when needed, but when we're doing a restaurant gig, he gets that it has to be soft but still have energy.

 

My brother is a pretty good drummer. He recently filled in a gig for us, and when we practiced with him, he hits his snare so loud that it hurt. I finally told him to put a towel on it or something to muffle it some. He was fine on the gig, but rehearsing in a small room wasn't real fun.

[Outkaster]

Billy Joel had that problem with Liberty Devito. There was an interview with him saying it was hard to work with him in the studio but they found a way around it.