What are your opinions on Hanon?

[kanker.]

OK, here's an opinion from someone with an RSI....

 

Technical exercises like Hanon should be used for one simple purpose, and it's not to build chops. They should be used to observe and address technique. Amazing how that works, technical exercises/technique, huh?

 

The goal shouldn't be to see how fast you can play them, but instead to pay attention to the fingers, the hands, the arms, and the body as you play. Deficiencies in any of these areas can then be addressed: issues of finger independence; inefficiencies in individual finger movements; structural issues in a finger, multiple fingers, the hands, the arm/shoulders, and posture; unevenness of tone and touch among the fingers; unevenness in rhythm. All of these things will show their ugly heads just a severely at slow tempos, and some will actually be much more severe at slow tempos.

 

I'm currently working on a set of exercises that I've developed that involve only the 4 fingers of each hand. My RSIs are in my thumbs. I got real lazy with my technique and began using my thumbs more like fingers than thumbs. The thumb's job is to come across the hand to grip, not to move up and down like a finger. As a result, from the perspective of a piano player, it should be treated as a member of the hand, not as a finger. The thumb doesn't require 'independence' as it's already independent. The reason I've gone to 4 finger exercises is that I don't view the thumb as important for exercise anymore. I think scales and arpeggios are much more important for practicing the use of the thumb. If you're going to run Hanon, you must keep in mind that the thumb should be played by drooping the hand, not by moving the thumb.

 

One of these days I'll get the current crop of 4 finger exercises I'm working on written down in Sibelius, but it's a pretty major task. My personal opinion is that they address more issues of technique than Hanon, partly because Hanon's approach is so scalar that issues like, for example, thirds between fingers 3 and 4 are not addressed. They also address hand independence slightly more than Hanon. Sometimes the hands are playing something in the same direction, as in Hanon, but sometimes they are going in opposite directions, which makes each hand responsible for different intervallic patterns at the same time. Anyway, one of these days I'll get that posted

[cyborg]

Frankly, I find the entire "Problems with Hanon Exercises" laughable, idiotic, and naive to the extreme. An example for all:

 

The simplified, schematic structure of these exercises takes all the music out of them so that students can (and too frequently do) end up practicing like robots, totally devoid of artistry. It does not require a musical genius to compile a Hanon type series of exercises. The joy of piano comes from the one-on-one conversations with the greatest geniuses that ever lived, when you play their compositions. It makes no sense to practice something devoid of music; remember, technique and music can never be separated.

 

Come on. A pianist knows when he's playing music, and when he's doing technique or warming up. An athlete knows that he's supposed to warm-up before running for x miles, or he will experiment fatigue much too soon. Now a musician is no athlete, but there's a physical part of playing that requires to be taken care of. No one is playing pieces only; a good musician knows how to differentiate the phases. Good, secure technique is nothing else than freedom of choice. Our hands should be a mean of transmission of our musical intentions; if they're stiff by not being warmed up, we're in trouble, simply as that.

 

 

I dare to disagree - you present typical beak approach, give a kid thread mil by Hanon and class will go by and the pupil will lose interest in music...

Comparing pianist to athlete is unfortunate. Please explain to me why Chopin, Bach or other haven't been practicing silly exercises like Hanon but were warming up on etudes and other short pieces. Life is too short to practice all possible combination they you may never use.

 

I'd say this to my student - first of all play, if you can't then practice that part so you can play.

[Sven Golly]

Please explain to me why Chopin, Bach or other haven't been practicing silly exercises like Hanon but were warming up on etudes and other short pieces.

 

So you're saying a student is a Chopin or Bach?

 

Also, if you don't believe the greats practiced rudiments in some fashion, you're smoking more of that "Duffy's a great singer" weed again.

 

I'd say this to my student - first of all play, if you can't then practice that part so you can play.

 

I can just see your teaching method. "Here's the Rach 3... come back when you've got it down cold."

 

If you were a personal trainer in a gym, would you suggest someone start by dead lifting 200 pounds, and keep trying until they got it lifted?

 

 

[Cygnus64]

I dare to disagree - you present typical beak approach, give a kid thread mil by Hanon and class will go by and the pupil will lose interest in music...

I take it that you don't know anybody who has applied for a music school lately. There's a waiting list for the waiting list. Thousands of kids could try for one spot. In China, make that tens of thousands. And all of them are doing their etudes.

[gryphon]

If you want bad ass technique, start with Hanon in all 12 keys, played correctly.

Define correctly. High, arched fingers?

 

Good pianists I know are self-aware. They know where their weaknesses lie, and can work on them independently of Hanon and Czerny. Some develop their own exercises to overcome their weaknesses. I know some good reach exercises developed by a jazz pianist that are used by others (and not published).

[NewImprov]

My piano teacher in college had me do the first 20 exercises from Hanon in all 12 keys. To this day, I'll run run one through 3 or 4 keys, along with some scalar exercises he showed me, as a kind of mindless prelude to "real" practicing. I don't always do this, but I have noticed that when I take the 10-15 minutes to do it, the rest of my playing feels more fluid.

[MikeT156]

Define correctly. High, arched fingers?

 

Start with practicing Hanon SLOWLY. Be sure both hands and fingers are striking each note at exactly the same time and for the same duration. Never increase your speed if the above rule cannot be maintained. That's a start.

 

 

Mike T.

[gryphon]

lol. It doesn't answer my question.

[marino]

I dare to disagree - you present typical beak approach, give a kid thread mil by Hanon and class will go by and the pupil will lose interest in music...

A "beak approach"? My God... tell me doc, is it contagious?!

Jokes aside, before someone believes I'm an advocate of practicing finger exercises forever at the expense of actual music, I'm not, as it's clear from reading my posts. All I'm saying is that Hanon and other similar exercises can be very useful for their purpose.

Frankly, in my experience, every serious student understands this in very little time.

 

Comparing pianist to athlete is unfortunate.

This doesn't deserve an answer... read my post a few words later.

 

Please explain to me why Chopin, Bach or other haven't been practicing silly exercises like Hanon but were warming up on etudes and other short pieces. Life is too short to practice all possible combination they you may never use.

You must be joking. Just to put things in perspective, here's how Forkel describes Bach's keyboard teaching: "The pupils had to practice finger exercises aimed at achieving a distinct and clean touch. According to Bach's opinion these exercises had to be continued from six to twelve months."

 

About Chopin, his lessons usually began with technical exercises, then proceeded with such works as Cramers Etudes and Clementis Gradus ad Parnassum (tons of sources about that out there).

 

I could go on with Listz and Brahms and Busoni and many, many other greats, who wrote finger exercises themselves, in addition to their etudes and, of course, pieces.

 

I'd say this to my student - first of all play, if you can't then practice that part so you can play.

That's your prerogative - I know many different methods can work. But in my opinion, you're overlooking one useful resource.

 

 

[Joe Muscara]

Carlo,

 

Maybe there is a language barrier you can work thru here.

[MikeT156]

by Joe Muscara:

 

Maybe there is a language barrier you can work thru here.

 

Ha, if only that was the problem. At times, its as thick as mud around here.

 

 

Mike T.

[SK]

"thick as mud"

 

I used the Hanon exercises, but when I was young, I eventually found it hard to listen to myself while practicing. I was always pushing myself to become a better player - so I developed my own hand stretches and exercises away from the keyboard to strengthen the weaker fingers, as well as 'tongue twister' lines I worked out on the piano. That worked for me but it won't work for everyone.

 

Looking over the thread, I see four things:

 

1. Exercises such as Hanon are long proven, reliable, helpful tools to technical improvement.

 

2. Balance technical exercises with actual playing so your musicality is maintained.

 

3. Every player has individual abilities and weaknesses. Once you've identified them, focus more on your specific technical needs.

 

4. And cyborg/delirium, no one should tell others how to approach it or that they're wasting their time with Hanon exercises. That goes nowhere - it only wastes their time and yours.

 

Now if anyone can possibly find anything to debate in something I just said be my guest, but I have nothing further to add.

[Dave Ferris]

I was never a "Hanon guy" although I certainly don't dismiss the method, especially in all 12 keys. I think that kind of work can give you much in return.

I wish I was disciplined enough and had a teacher when I was a teenager to impart the benefits of it. I would be an even better player today.

 

As I've detailed in posts past, I did do the Joseffy for probably close to 15 years as a warmup.. I explained it and other "technical" type things I work on here, on page 3 at the top of this thread:

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2115353/Re_Is_practicing_all_these_sca#Post2115353

[Dave Ferris]

4. And cyborg/delirium, no one should tell others how to approach it or that they're wasting their time with Hanon exercises.

 

There is a certain familiarity about the posts.........

 

Wanted to also add an extra to Carlo's recommendation of the Brahms exercises. They are very musical and in places almost like a piece in and of itself.

[cyborg]

4. And cyborg/delirium, no one should tell others how to approach it or that they're wasting their time with Hanon exercises.

 

There is a certain familiarity about the posts.........

 

ok, I got it - whoever is in disagreement with you guys has to be automatically in delirium state, interesting approach...

 

 

 

I'd say this to my student - first of all play, if you can't then practice that part so you can play.

That's your prerogative - I know many different methods can work. But in my opinion, you're overlooking one useful resource.

 

I only say IMO it's boring and waste of time, because I can do the same along with melody and rhythm, meaning playing music not only practicing fingers.

I know that because I waste that time personally on Hanon, scales and passages playing 6 hours a day in different keys.

What I got? perfect dry technique, nobody could play faster then me at music school but that's about it...

[GovernorSilver]

My last piano teacher (a gigging jazz pro in the South Florida region) had me working a lot with Alfred's Adult All-In-One Piano Course (plus other stuff, of course - no teacher sticks to one book). It was through the Alfred's course I got introduced to Hanon exercises. The course doesn't have all the Hanons, just a selection.

 

This thread makes me curious enough to pull out those Hanon exercises and work them a bit, even though I'm not a "serious" pianist. It'll be interesting to compare them with the Graham Clark Scale method that I'd been practicing.

[MikeT156]

cyborg:

 

No question Hanon Studies are boring as hell to play. All I can say is they are worth doing as a warm up, same as scales. The rest of what I play sounds more musical than if I don't do warm-up exercises. I'm sure there are other methods of practicing to improve one's chops. I'd say that anyone that has time to play 6 to 8 hours a day on an acoustic piano should be a "pretty darn good" piano player too, no matter what he/she plays.

 

 

Mike T.

[Sven Golly]

I know that because I waste that time personally on Hanon, scales and passages playing 6 hours a day in different keys.

What I got? perfect dry technique, nobody could play faster then me at music school but that's about it...

 

Okay, so let me sum up here: because you didn't know what Hanon was for, and misused it, it's crap?

 

Got it.

 

[Cygnus64]

I know that because I waste that time personally on Hanon, scales and passages playing 6 hours a day in different keys.

What I got? perfect dry technique, nobody could play faster then me at music school but that's about it...

I know that you're probably trolling and all, but:

 

if you played Hanon and scales 6 hours a day (which I don't believe for a second), than you're an absolute maroon. That would be like eating corn, only corn, every meal for 6 months. Etudes and studies are supposed to be about 20 percent of a practice regimen. They have a distinct purpose, which apparently nobody ever told you about (or you simply couldnt figure out on your own.)

[cyborg]

 

 

[kylethiessen]

That would be like eating corn, only corn, every meal for 6 months.

 

Have you seen Food, Inc.? That's essentially what most Americans are doing today. (thought this thread could stand a hijacking)

[Mike Davis]

I played a lot of Hanon when I was a kid, and although I could never prove this scientifically, I always had the impression that it helped build a muscle memory foundation that has stayed with me.

 

I don't know about you guys, but once I became a working pro (I was gonna say 'grew up,' but maybe not ) it became a lot harder for me to practice for hours every day.

 

Side trip:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Hanon-Leo-Alfassy/dp/0825622239

 

 

 

[Bobadohshe]

I didn't get exposed to Hanon until I was about 18 and I got a new, better teacher. Soon after, my technique started to grow by leaps and bounds. I was resentful that my earlier teachers (who weren't really suited to teach more advanced students, being kind of amateur players themselves) hadn't exposed me to it.

 

Since then, (10 years ago), I have had an on again off again love hate relationship with Hanon. I've found myself wondering several things, including:

 

-Is this really the most efficient way to practice technique?

-If I learn all 60 of these and play all 60 every day as it suggests (which would certainly take about 90 minutes to two hours) will I be able to play anything and everything I am challenged with?

-Am I missing out by not doing other excercises in different keys?

-Does playing the SAME set of excecises everyday expose me to repetitive stress injuries?

-What about more MUSICAL exercises with dynamics and phrasing?

 

And I've heard from pedagogy students and even BETTER teachers that I've had that Hanon isn't good for you, or at best, it isn't a be all and end all. But I still pull it out and play it sometimes. I'll sometimes do 1-10 or 11-20, or I'll do the thumb tucking ones before the scales.

 

But lately I've been much more enthralled with the alternatives, and I'm surprised they haven't received more run here. The alternatives being:

 

CZERNY, and even more under the radar here, PISCHNA.

 

Anyone else here do PISCHNA? It's not easy by any means, but it is much better at tackling different keys, and gets into a number of technical challenges I don't really see in Hanon.

[jarrell]

One topic being addressed here is, is it helpful to focus on just practicing technical stuff, as opposed to actual music? The answer most people I think would agree with is yes, but within an overall balance. I don't think anyone thinks Hanon is the be all and end all, and as Cygnus and others have said, technical exercises should not be the main focus of one's practice time.

 

Let's trot out the athlete analogy again - if a pro athlete (baseball, basketball, football, tennis, whatever) works out regularly at a gym in addition to playing their sport, would it help them in playing their sport? Or, a thought experiment - imagine two parallel universes, identical, except in one the athlete in addition to their regular practice also hits the gym for 2 hours a day 5 days a week. Another version, where the player who in addition to practicing pieces they want to play spends 1 hour a day 5 days a week on Hanon, scales, arpeggios, and whatnot? Would these players be the better for the extra focus? Of course you could say they would be just as much better if they took that extra time and just practiced their sport or their tunes, but hundreds of years of classical music pedagogy says no, better to do both.

 

I think one important part of becoming a good player, or a good anything, is the ability to understand what one needs to improve, the knowledge of the best and most efficient way(s) to improve those things, and the discipline to focus on that. Sometimes you just have to focus on the technical, the mechanics of it.

[Dave Ferris]

..., and even more under the radar here, PISCHNA.

 

Anyone else here do PISCHNA? It's not easy by any means, but it is much better at tackling different keys, and gets into a number of technical challenges I don't really see in Hanon.

 

I did when I was in my early 20s with a teacher in St. Louis. Not for any substantial length of time, maybe 8 months to a year if my memory banks go back that far. Also he was not has strict, focused and intense as Terry Trotter so I probably wasn't getting full benefit out of Pischna anyway.

 

I do remember asking Terry about Pischna when I started with him. He said he liked the exercises but preferred to have me do the Joseffy, Brahms or Beringer. Between those and the Major scales he felt that was plenty of time devoted to "exercises". The other time he wanted me working on the pieces....and the Jazz.

[marino]

To Bob and Dave F.: I don't do, and don't recommend, the Pischna book. The concept of keeping the hand in an almost-fixed position, and doing various types of 'body-building' exercises with the fingers, doesn't seem very efficient to me, simply because it prevents the support from the arm and shoulder to the finger movements. The result is very often a stiff forearm, and the loss of control of the arm weight applied to the keyboard.

 

Some of the Brahms exercises are to be treated with care for the same reasons.

 

 

[GovernorSilver]

My last piano teacher (a gigging jazz pro in the South Florida region) had me working a lot with Alfred's Adult All-In-One Piano Course (plus other stuff, of course - no teacher sticks to one book). It was through the Alfred's course I got introduced to Hanon exercises. The course doesn't have all the Hanons, just a selection.

 

This thread makes me curious enough to pull out those Hanon exercises and work them a bit, even though I'm not a "serious" pianist. It'll be interesting to compare them with the Graham Clark Scale method that I'd been practicing.

 

I revisited these Hanon exercises last night. There are only 3 of them in the Alfreds books with a note after the 3rd exercise to refer to either of two Hanon books for more exercises if one wishes to learn more. The three that do appear in the Alfreds books are clearly intended to increase the dynamic range of the ring finger and pinky, with the goal of being able to play notes just as loud with those fingers as with any other digits of the hand. It took merely a few minutes to play the first two exercises up and down an octave, so afterwards I was amused at the drama/controversy of how they are a waste of time, given that they take up so little time on their own.

 

The Graham Clark Method is different for a number of reasons - it not specific to the piano (I've tried it on viola, guitar, and piano), and it places heavier emphasis on the modes, intervals, triads and tetrads of the scale.

[Canoehead]

I have found the Hanon, Schmidt and Donyani exercises all to be very helpful for developing and sustaining technique.

 

Cheers,

Gord

[MAJUSCULE]

I read that Coltrane did Hanon on sax back in the day. Now, because one guy does it doesn't mean we all should, but he was a beast, to say the least.

[Bobadohshe]

To Bob and Dave F.: I don't do, and don't recommend, the Pischna book. The concept of keeping the hand in an almost-fixed position, and doing various types of 'body-building' exercises with the fingers, doesn't seem very efficient to me, simply because it prevents the support from the arm and shoulder to the finger movements. The result is very often a stiff forearm, and the loss of control of the arm weight applied to the keyboard.

 

Some of the Brahms exercises are to be treated with care for the same reasons.

 

 

Do you do Czerny with your students? If so, which?