Nicky Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Question/Puzzle for the day Nat Cole sang this song with the 1st chord being Fmaj7. Most people would say the song's in the key of "F".....but the end of the song eventually cadences to Bb maj7....so it sounds like it's in Bb at the end. The 1st 4 bars of the song (2 bars of Fmaj7, 2 bars of Abdim7) sound like the key of F. Once you get to the 5th bar (Bbmaj7 or G-7), the rest of the song could be analyzed as the key of "Bb". So is the song in "F", "Bb",....or does it start in "F" and modulate to "Bb"? No prize awarded since I don't think there's a right answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 It's been a while since I've played that tune. There are a handful of tunes where you have to add additional information when calling it out - the first melody note, the first chord, whatever. Take a look at We've Only Just Begun (Roger Nichols). The composer worked under the illusion that the first chord defined the tonality. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT156 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I always felt that the SCALE that the melody follows is the key of a song. There "could" be a lot of different chords in a song, and maybe some "accidentals" in a melody line, but a song should have some pattern of notes that the melody follows. Mike T. Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanC Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I always felt that the SCALE that the melody follows is the key of a song. Mike T. Agreed. To expand on that a bit, the scale of the song is defined by the number of sharps or flats. Stan Gig Rig: Yamaha S90 XS; Hammond SK-1; Rehearsal: Yamaha MOX8 Korg Triton Le61, Yamaha S90, Hammond XK-1 Retired: Hammond M2/Leslie 145, Wurly 200, Ensoniq VFX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Another prime example is another Carpenters tune, Close To You, whose intro is all around the IV. Studio: Yamaha P515 | Yamaha Tyros 5 | Yamaha HX1 | Moog Sub 37 Road: Yamaha YC88 | Nord Electro 5D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucasb Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Yeah, Nicky! That is a funny tune, whenever I played it I always thought that was slick how it seems to start in one key (we often played it in C so ultimately ending on F) but end in another. I'm not sure I even have an opinion but it's fun to think about different reasons why it would be one or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicky Posted September 10, 2009 Author Share Posted September 10, 2009 just to clarify....this is not a tune that "starts on the 2 chord, or starts on the 4"....but it seems to be in 2 different keys....that's why I posed the original question-"what key is it in? Try transposing it....it's a hard one to hear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Ferris Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 When it's called on a gig out here, it's "Unforgettable in F" or G. Most of the time in the original key F though. I sing it in Ab just to mess with people (just kidding) but if they make a negative facial expression when I call out Ab, I have a chart standing by. Yeah it is tricky, ya gots to know the tune for sure. I've seen a lot of bass players stumble around setting up a turnarond from Bb back to F. The tune would end in the key of Bb. https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris https://www.youtube.com/@daveferris2709 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 In other words then, going by Dave's post, the OP is right. It starts in F and ends in Bb. Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I would consider it in F as well...one of the songs that I've played a bunch, but still reach for my cheat sheet when it comes up on the gig. Sometimes a bit convoluted to cop the string lines while comping chords. Regards, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Ferris Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Yeah it is tricky, ya gots to know the tune for sure. I've seen a lot of bass players stumble around setting up the turnarond from Bb back to F.. Fwiw, I do something like : Bbmaj7 2 beats to Ab13+11 or Eb7 +11 2 beats/ Gm9 2 beats to C11 2beats// back to home base of Fmaj7. https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris https://www.youtube.com/@daveferris2709 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuzikTeechur Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 About 10 years back I was playing in a trio and the singer/sax man called "Unforgettable" and wanted "just the last 4 bars" as an intro. So, I played the last 4 bars, and he started singing in the key he "heard", which was the end, not the beginning. He was off by a 4th (or 5th, depending on which way you look at it) and was PISSED that he had been made to look/sound bad. Reamed me at the next break, to which I said "I quit. I'm sure there are plenty of guys in Bangor-Freaking-Maine who can play chords, pedals, AND take a solo when you decide to go shmooze with the clientele." Muzikteechur is Lonnie, in Kittery, Maine. HS music teacher: Concert Band, Marching Band, Jazz Band, Chorus, Music Theory, AP Music Theory, History of Rock, Musical Theatre, Piano, Guitar, Drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Ferris Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I'm sure there are plenty of guys in Bangor-Freaking-Maine who can play chords, pedals, AND take a solo when you decide to go shmooze with the clientele." Haha, too funny. I was just looking at real-estate prices the other night in Portland, man not has cheap has I would have thought. My wife would have a hard time with the cold there after all these years in S. Cal. Me, I'd love it. Clean air, no fires, lots of green, less beautiful people and probably no traffic comparatively speaking. I don't do pedals or schmooze too well either. I do sing though...haha. https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris https://www.youtube.com/@daveferris2709 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Isn't everything in the key of C? I thought that's what the transpose button was for. Keep it greazy! B3tles - Soul Jazz THEO - Prog Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Isn't everything in the key of C? I thought that's what the transpose button was for. It is. The question is, how the hell did you install one on your B3? A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITGITC Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 My wife would have a hard time with the...less beautiful people... Now if you came right out and said that people in Portland Maine are just down-right butt-ugly, it would be a lot clearer. But I liked the way you slid that in - you Devil.... Devil Dave. Kinda has a ring to it, methinks. "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Tatum Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 In other words then, going by Dave's post, the OP is right. It starts in F and ends in Bb. That's the way I view it. Starts in one key, ends in another. So, what other pop tunes/standards do that? I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I'm sure there must be a couple out there (relative minor/major doesn't count) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Isn't everything in the key of C? I thought that's what the transpose button was for. It is. The question is, how the hell did you install one on your B3? Trust me, there's one on Jim's XK-3. Jim and I watched a guy using the XK-3's transpose to its "fullest" a few weeks ago.... A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 That's the way I view it. Starts in one key, ends in another. So, what other pop tunes/standards do that? "Just Friends" goes a fifth higher. If you start it in C, it will end in G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonksDream Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 "One For the Road" starts in Eb and ends in G. It's an AABA tune where the first A is in Eb and the rest of the tune is in G. "Limehouse Blues" starts on the 4th IIRC. Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicky Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share Posted September 11, 2009 "Just Friends" could be thought of as starting on the 4 chord © in the key of G, so it can be thought of as all in one key. Don't know "One For the Road" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Don't know "One For the Road" Sure you do. [video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53sCut6XxZE No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 A different type of oddity in a tune I'd almost forgotten about - "Good Morning Heartache", going from a minor key feel to a major key in 2 bars. CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Tatum Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 "Just Friends" goes a fifth higher. If you start it in C, it will end in G. Just Friends doesn't count, because the key signature doesn't actually change - it just starts on the IV chord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Tatum Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 A different type of oddity in a tune I'd almost forgotten about - "Good Morning Heartache", going from a minor key feel to a major key in 2 bars. Yes, that's a lovely bit of musical trickery in that tune, one of my favourites. Speaking of musical trickery, there's Giant Steps - what key is that in, B or Eb? But, then again, it's a musical universe unto itself, unlike any other tune - it's like there's no key centre, or maybe there's three - B, Eb, and G, and constantly moving from one to another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Tatum Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 "One For the Road" starts in Eb and ends in G. It's an AABA tune where the first A is in Eb and the rest of the tune is in G. "Limehouse Blues" starts on the 4th IIRC. Yes, One for the Road. Nice tune. Limehouse Blues doesn't count - the key signature doesn't actually change, it just starts on the IV chord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Lots of tunes have temporary tonics. Star Eyes is full of them, Like Someone in Love, I Love You, Just You Just Me, and on and on. Stella uses the V as a temporary tonic. Whispering Pines by The Band is another great example. I think Unforgettable is just an extreme example of the power of a temporary tonic. A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Speaking of musical trickery, there's Giant Steps - what key is that in, B or Eb? But, then again, it's a musical universe unto itself, unlike any other tune - it's like there's no key centre, or maybe there's three - B, Eb, and G, and constantly moving from one to another. Yep, GS is considered in those 3 key centers. In order to break down that "musical universe unto itself", the best thing to do is play GS as a funky jam. PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Tatum Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Lots of tunes have temporary tonics. Star Eyes is full of them, Like Someone in Love, I Love You, Just You Just Me, and on and on. Stella uses the V as a temporary tonic. Whispering Pines by The Band is another great example. I think Unforgettable is just an extreme example of the power of a temporary tonic. I think temporary tonics is a different subject. That's where a song temporarily modulates to a different key. As you say, there are tons of examples of that. But most of them end in the same key they started (that is not to say that they necessarily started on the 1 chord). Unforgettable is a different kind of thing - it starts in one key, and cleverly ends in a different one. I didn't think I'd have to explain this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Ferris Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Do you guys play " Spring Can Really Hang You Up The Most" ? That is a great example, ingenious imo the way the last A section coming out of the bridge goes to the V Maj7, ( Key of C) G Maj 7 to F Maj7 for just the one bar and then reverts back to the C Ma7 BbMaj7 of the original A section. That is one of the coolest movements in any standard or even Jazz tune that I've come across. Leave it to a former St. Louisan, Tommy Wolf, to write something like that. https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris https://www.youtube.com/@daveferris2709 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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