A Pox on you Sam Ash KB Salesman!

[harmonizer]

This thread makes me think I am lucky to live a short 20 minute drive away from the location here in NJ where there is a GC and SA directly across the street from each other (on Route 22). I can't say they have always been great, but the responsiveness I get at these two stores from their sales people seems better than what this thread reflects. This might be the result of the sales people (and their managers) knowing that it is incredibly for me to go across the street (literally) if I am not getting what I want.

 

(Unless of course, we are talking about woodwind-related things such as sax reeds, which GC does not carry!)

[cnegrad]

Several thoughts:

 

First, being a former New Yorker I have considerable experience with both Sam's Arse and GC. In the NY/NJ area I find both chains to be absolutely intolerable no matter which of their many stores that I visit. The salespeople couldn't care less whether or not you buy from them, and the prices have always reflected that attitude. My wife absolutely refuses to enter either chain, as she always ends up leaving the store in anger and frustration.

 

However, my experience changed a bit after moving to N.Carolina. In general I find most folks around here to be much more pleasant, and that's reflected in their salesmanship (thank goodness). The management still allows the incessant wanking by people who obviously have no intention of buying. And though the salesmen are nicer, they still know very little about the products that they sell. I always seem to be the one who educates them, rather than the other way around.

 

Before SA arrived here, my only choices were GC or the now defunct Mars Music. Given my limited choices, I started a relationship with the head keyboard salesman at GC; a nice guy who genuinely seemed to want my business and enjoyed talking with me. He has since left GC and moved to SA, and I've followed him there. As long as I have a reasonable salesman to deal with, I'm willing to spend a little more to support my local stores. I think that it's important to have a powerhouse chain that I can access when need be, so I'm willing to forego out-of-state stores unless there's a huge price differential.

 

Bottom line: Rather than see SA and GC close up shop, I'd rather that they learn their lesson from discussions like these, and somehow reinvent themselves to be the kind of stores we'd want to frequent. And when I need real-world expertise or trustworthy customer service, I call Sweetwater. Again, the price isn't the cheapest, but there are definitely times when customer service is more important than the cheapest price.

 

Another thing: Those of you who shop MF really need to do more research, because generally speaking, you're just paying too much. If your criteria is getting the best price and you're going to have your gear shipped to you from out of state, at least go with some of the stores mentioned earlier in this thread and save a bunch of money.

 

My closing thought: Wanna have some sick fun? Go into your local GC and ask them for manuscript paper. I innocently did that here in NC, and they passed me off from one confused salesperson to the next. Apparently they had never heard of manuscript paper, and acted as though I was speaking a foreign language! One guy said, "you mean this?" and he handed me a pad of TAB paper. Finally they dragged the manager out from wherever he was hiding, and he said that they don't carry it; just some sheet music and TAB paper. It's sad that a well known store with the word "Guitar" in it still promotes the stereotype that guitarists are too lazy to learn to read traditional notation.

[kanker.]

And when I need real-world expertise or trustworthy customer service, I call Sweetwater. Again, the price isn't the cheapest, but there are definitely times when customer service is more important than the cheapest price.

Heh, my absolute worst, most horrific customer service experience was with Sweetwater, and there was nothing trustworthy about them - I was lied to directly by my sales rep, and that was the best part of the experience. I miss the mom and pop stores we used to have here before Mars and GC moved in - THAT was trustworthy customer service with truly knowledgeable sales staff, at least in the keyboard dept. One of those shops is still open, but their keyboard dept is virtually non-existent unfortunately, as they still have one of the most knowledgeable keyboard salesmen out there on staff. If I have to choose between Sam Ash and GC, then it's GC, hands down - Sam Ash really has no interest at all in anything but my money - GC will at least deal with you and give you a comparatively reasonable price on trade ins.

[ITGITC]

Given my limited choices, I started a relationship with the head keyboard salesman at GC; a nice guy who genuinely seemed to want my business and enjoyed talking with me. He has since left GC and moved to SA, and I've followed him there. As long as I have a reasonable salesman to deal with, I'm willing to spend a little more to support my local stores. I think that it's important to have a powerhouse chain that I can access when need be, so I'm willing to forego out-of-state stores unless there's a huge price differential.

 

 

You're speaking of Michael Thrower.

 

He's a great guy. Used to be with AL&M before GC and now SA.

 

I bought my QSC amp from him before he left GC (plus lots of other stuff).

 

Yeah. He has no problem taking my money.

 

 

 

 

[cnegrad]

Kevin,

 

Then I guess that it all comes down to your relationship with each individual salesman, regardless of store.

[cnegrad]

Yeah, Mike's a decent guy. I just wish he could find me an XS7 before the end of the month...

[Song80s]

Several thoughts:

 

First, being a former New Yorker I have considerable experience with both Sam's Arse and GC. In the NY/NJ area I find both chains to be absolutely intolerable no matter which of their many stores that I visit. The salespeople couldn't care less whether or not you buy from them, and the prices have always reflected that attitude. My wife absolutely refuses to enter either chain, as she always ends up leaving the store in anger and frustration.

 

which proves those 2 chains AND rudy Guiliani are too ' New Yorky ' for America

[cnegrad]

Hillary too.

[kanker.]

Kevin,

 

Then I guess that it all comes down to your relationship with each individual salesman, regardless of store.

Indeed - there are decent people everywhere, and there is slime all those same places. My experience went well beyond an individual salesman, but your point is still true.

[jay da cop]

I have to agree with kanker a few posts back. If you wanted real service it was at the mom and pop places. There were 2 in Baltimore when I lived there a number of years ago that had great service, and knowledgeable people...until they got shut out by GC and Mars. I have never been into either one for doing that. I do most of my business with Sweetwater, and don't feel bad for one moment (my Axiom61 showed up just yesterday). But, to contradict myself, there is a music store near my house that gets very little of my business since they are not interested in carrying keyboards of quality. "There's just no market in it around here" is what they tell me, forcing me to either order it from them, or elsewhere. So, I end up teaching them about the capabilities, or running an impromptu lesson on MIDI to another customer while I'm there and they have no idea (all are guitarists. That is not an indictment on guitarists by any means, they are just not interested in learning how to help customers).

 

Anyway, I can feel my blood pressure rising.

 

Jay

[jay da cop]

Oh, and +1 for Chuck Levins. Great place.

 

Jay

[RABid]

Luckily, I have delt with the same keyboard salesman since about 1982. To bad his store is 150 miles away, but it is worth the drive to find somone that actually reads the manuals and learns how to operate and program the keyboards, beatboxes and software he sales.

 

Robert

[tarkus]

Now that they screwed up, and I've talked with the manager, he assures me "satisfaction guaranteed".

 

I'm in the customer service business too, and for once I get to complain.

 

After two converstaions with him, he seems like he will do "right by me".

I just talked to Dave Smith. He says that the sales guys have in fact called him telling him they need another unit, but no one from Ash Corporate has sent a purchase order. We can't ship a unit without a purchase order...

 

dB

DSI

 

 

 

AAAAARRGH!!!

 

Heads will roll...

[Joe Muscara]

See, that's my problem with GC, whether you get a good sales person seems solely dependent on the person. If the chain were any good, they'd instill good salesmanship and customer relations from the top down. Most people don't know how to be good sales people by nature, they need to learn it. Some stores put their people through training so they can do that, like Apple. I don't expect that much training at GC, but anything would be an improvement. And it's a joke that lots of us say, "they don't know anything about the products they sell." The sales people should be at least briefed about all the products in their department, or be able and willing to get the info quickly. I don't mind when I ask a question and the reply is, "let me go find out for you."

 

Kevin, I know you had a bad experience with Sweetwater, but it's my impression both from what they say and the conversations that I've had with my rep there that they do all these things I'm talking about. I really like them and wish they were close enough to visit.

 

As far as mom and pop stores, it seems keyboards are probably the worst instrument for that. I can go to at least half a dozen different small stores around here and shop for guitars, but very few stores with keyboards, and usually the selection consists of stuff like arranger keyboards from Yammy and/or Casio.

[Mark Zeger]

Another +1 for Chuck Levin's though I've only dealt with the band instrument department. I've had good experiences buying a trumpet, a flugelhorn, and a mute there in the past 18 months.

 

When I'm in NYC, I'll browse through (but never buy from) the 4 Sam Ash stores and Manny's on 48th St. but it's not the same as when Manny's was independent and Alex Music and We Buy Guitars were still there.

 

Tarkus: have you considered going upstate to Alto Music in Middletown for future major purchases? It's a great store, probably an hour from the GWB via I87 and 17.

 

[Joe Muscara]

BTW, GC owns MF, for those of you who don't know. Supposedly it's a "wholly-owned, independent subsidiary."

 

http://www.guitarcenter.com/company/90s.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musician's_Friend

 

Apparently they own Music123 as well.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar_Center

 

Just FYI.

[MikeT156]

Taurus:

 

In your initial post, you said you "paid with a credit card". Question? Did you play in FULL with your order or did you give them a deposit?

 

Either way, based on with db said that the unit still hasn't shipped, go to the store and DEMAND a full refund on your credit card purchase. Being that you haven't gotten any product from them, you are in the driver's seat. "Some" stores will not give you a refund, only a credit, for merchandise once a customer takes delivery on the product. However, they have your money and you didn't get the product when they said they would have it. Another salesman "sold" yours because your salesman wasn't in that day.

 

That is the WORST management of a store I ever heard of! No more excuses. Get your refund and buy it somewhere else. If these guys are screwing you around like this BEFORE the sales, what do you think is going to happen AFTER the sale if you have a problem?

 

Mike T.

[cnegrad]

Now see, if I was the owner of one of these chains (SA or GC), I'd jump into this thread and make my feelings known. I know that Sweetwater's owner Chuck Surack and his staff have made their presence known here, and always seem to do their best to own up to any mistakes they may have made. I give them a lot of credit for that.

HEY KEYBOARD MAGAZINE STAFF: Care to invite the owners of SA and GC to participate in a polite discussion on the state of MI Retail from the customer's viewpoint? Seems to me that it has the potential of doing a lot of good. I think that both chains could stand to learn that a little communication can go a long way...

[MikeT156]

I'd venture a guess that Sweetwater has the MEK in stock. They charge MAP price, but free shipping. NYC has the highest sales tax in the land, so unless Tarkus got a really low price, the difference in not being charged sales tax by Sweetwater adds up. Tarkus: I'd consider it if you're tired of waiting for your synth.

 

Mike T.

[Legatoboy]

Kanker,

 

Indeed - there are decent people everywhere, and there is slime all those same places.

 

I second this also. . . .work environments are pretty weird nowadays in general in regards to people's behavior.The American public (this includes Sales people) have pretty much been driven crazy by the powers that be in the past 35 years to be fair! Sam's Arse still has good people working there like I said yesterday!

 

lb

[cnegrad]

legatoboy,

Sam's Arse still has good people working there like I said yesterday!

I know; but when the overwhelming public perception is this negative, it's time for these chains to take a good look in the mirror and do something about it.

[Legatoboy]

CNEGRAD,

 

No, I agree if you witnessed my vitriol on my previous posts here, I just feel sorry for some of the good people that work at Ash, especially in the sheetmusic/orchestral dept.. Ash has a good Sheetmusic department and the people behind the counter their alot of times are real musicians not salesmen. I don't want to see that 'go away' or see that outlet to work closed to good people tying to make an honest buck. Nor do I want to have to buy everything online.

 

That's all, the dicotomies of good and evil in the retail sales world! Some of them are unduely obnoxious, yes!

 

lb

[cnegrad]

I know, but a retail business has to try to see things in the eyes of it's customers or it's going to suffer.

[Legatoboy]

yep!

lb

[Martin Hines]

I played the game with Sam Ash, they beat all prices.

 

Unfortunately "lowest price" does not always equal "best deal" when everything is considered.

 

Hopefully they can get you your keyboard.

 

 

I know; but when the overwhelming public perception is this negative, it's time for these chains to take a good look in the mirror and do something about it.

Unfortunately, we consumers are to blame for poor service. We reward "lowest price" stores with our business, then wonder why those stores provide crappy service.

[kanker.]

Now see, if I was the owner of one of these chains (SA or GC), I'd jump into this thread and make my feelings known. I know that Sweetwater's owner Chuck Surack and his staff have made their presence known here, and always seem to do their best to own up to any mistakes they may have made. I give them a lot of credit for that.

They also advertise on this site quite a bit, so it's to their benefit to 'make their presence known'. At the same time, they are also more than capable of reading my posts and replying to them directly or privately, and they have not done that, even when I mentioned this in another thread that a Sweetwater rep did participate in. His comment was something to the effect of 'if anyone has a problem, please contact me'. Noble, but were he that concerned he would have taken the time out of HIS schedule to contact me directly - THAT is customer service. It is solely because of my own sense of ethics and the fact that the transaction in question doesn't involve only me as a customer that I haven't told the story - it's not all my story to tell. All I can do is balance out some of the 'Sweetwater is wonderful' claims with my own vague warning that they can be at least as bad as the next retailer.

[Legatoboy]

Guess who!

 

http://www.jonco48.com/blog/jack_20ass.jpg

 

LB

[ProfD]

So, some of you remember when keyboard salespeople could actually play well enough to make you want to buy it AND knew the difference between a LFO and UFO?

 

Nowadays, if it were not a matter of floor space, the keyboards could be stacked up similar to MIDI controllers. Then, the only thing left for us to do is take it to the cash register.

 

 

[MikeT156]

Quote by Martin Hines:

 

"Unfortunately "lowest price" does not always equal "best deal" when everything is considered".

 

And....

 

"Unfortunately, we consumers are to blame for poor service. We reward "lowest price" stores with our business, then wonder why those stores provide crappy service."

 

Martin I agree with the first statement for the most part. The second statement is something that has "that depends" in the question of whether or not you buy from a dealer.

 

The biggest problem I've had down through the years with "local dealers" is "typically" they don't know the product any better than I do, often times, they know less.

 

Secondly, a lot of dealers don't give you any "value add" over the lowest price internet dealer. No service department, no parts, no help of any kind. So, why would I pay more?

 

I've bought products from Internet dealers, for low price. Not expecting any after sale service. Typically, I buy my Yamaha equipment that way, because I never had a Yamaha piece of equipment fail on me in over 30 years.

 

That said, I've also dealt with a regional dealer the DOES have a full service department and will provide a loaner if my KB, amp, speakers etc., goes belly up, and I have a gig. I am willing to pay more with that dealer because they give me a reason to pay more.

 

But just to support a local dealer that doesn't know his product line and gives me no reason to buy from him? Nope. He probably doesn't deserve to be in business.

 

Reality check.

 

Mike T.

[teleman65]

I've had limited experience dealing with Sam Ash, GC etc.

We don't have them in Canada.

I was in New York last month and bought some stuff in the keyboard dept at GC. They were more helpful than the clowns I find at Long and McQuade in Toronto.

I walked into Sam Ash on 48th and was put off by their staff. It was like Long and McQuade but in $US.

Since Tarkus paid they didn't deliver it would seem to me that Sam Ash breached their contract. Tarkus ought to be refunded in full and if Sam Ash can't deliver(and throw in compensation for the inconvenience) then the Credit Card company should do a chargeback at Tarkus's request.

 

That is not an indictment on guitarists by any means, they are just not interested in learning how to help customers)

I've had better customer service from guitarists over the last 30 years than I've had from keyboard players. YMMV