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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: xp50player] #3007205 09/09/19 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by xp50player



There has been this “mode-less concept” hype, but there is in fact a Single Tone button that takes you to V-Piano initially, but doing so wipes out your Scene edit buffer.


That is very much like my Fantom X6. No matter what mode you were in you could push the “piano” button, and it would take you to the pianos.

I’m used to a mode-less concept since I’ve gotten my Yamaha MODX.

I see the new Fantom like this : like the X and G, its not for the lazy. Sure, you can take it out of the box and play it as is. To realize the potential, you have to take time and learn. I’ve had my MODX for several months now, and I’m still learning and discovering how deep it really is.

What I have learned so far, with my hands on demo, is that it takes the best of what the previous Fantom X and G had, and adds things they’ve learned.

With the touch screen and the way it interacts with programming lets you get into the depths.

Having the 3 class compliant USB is huge. My full report later on that. Let’s just say I plugged a USB controller in and played sounds from the Fantom.

All of the I/O connectivity is great to have.

Etc. etc.

Are these new boards for everyone? Of course not.

As far as price? It’s right in line with other top line workstations.

10 years ago The G6 was around 2,999.

I still haven’t decided if I will get it.


David
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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: AnotherScott] #3007213 09/09/19 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by GregC
Do you really believe Fantom is going to handle your cover band responsibilities ?


Personally, no... because (a) it's over my weight limit, and (b) I'm generally a multi-board guy and not likely to need a single do-everything board. But it seems a lot of people do look for an all-in-one, and the Fantom potentially looks about as capable as anything else out there for filling that role.


So I'd turn the question around... *IF* you wanted to handle your cover band responsibilities with one board (as many people do), is there any reason you think the Fantom is NOT likely to be a good choice for that? And which other boards would be better suited for that? Functionally, if it were lighter, I could easily see the Fantom being my choice, if that were my goal.


I think thats a the ' right question '.

Here's my point. This new Fantom is well above the rompler needs of doing cover material.

If I am spending $4000 on a keyboard, I am going to mine its potential. And when I watch these demos
I am impressed - that it is providing tools for a fresh break out keyboard sound.

IOW, Fantom is a board that will take the musician into a new direction.

It is much different than Kronos and Montage- I see many comparing it to these
older work stations. I think Fantom as the keyboard as a contemporary
or next generation music production tool.

I think Fantom is testing preconceptions in a way. I like that boldness.

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: GregC] #3007214 09/09/19 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by GregC
Here's my point. This new Fantom is well above the rompler needs of doing cover material.

If I am spending $4000 on a keyboard, I am going to mine its potential. And when I watch these demos
I am impressed - that it is providing tools for a fresh break out keyboard sound.

IOW, Fantom is a board that will take the musician into a new direction.

It is much different than Kronos and Montage- I see many comparing it to these
older work stations. I think Fantom as the keyboard as a contemporary
or next generation music production tool.

I think Fantom is testing preconceptions in a way. I like that boldness.

Good points. But even using it "merely" as a tool for a cover band, I find it appealing. In sounds and features it may be above what is needed, but I am drawn to all the real-time control, both for the ease of setting up sounds in advance, and for live tweaking in performance. Again, similar to the NS3 in that respect, and similarly not an inexpensive board but still one with high appeal.


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: AnotherScott] #3007218 09/09/19 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by GregC
Here's my point. This new Fantom is well above the rompler needs of doing cover material.

If I am spending $4000 on a keyboard, I am going to mine its potential. And when I watch these demos
I am impressed - that it is providing tools for a fresh break out keyboard sound.

IOW, Fantom is a board that will take the musician into a new direction.

It is much different than Kronos and Montage- I see many comparing it to these
older work stations. I think Fantom as the keyboard as a contemporary
or next generation music production tool.

I think Fantom is testing preconceptions in a way. I like that boldness.

Good points. But even using it "merely" as a tool for a cover band, I find it appealing. In sounds and features it may be above what is needed, but I am drawn to all the real-time control, both for the ease of setting up sounds in advance, and for live tweaking in performance. Again, similar to the NS3 in that respect, and similarly not an inexpensive board but still one with high appeal.



I hope I don't sound like the Roland marketing machine. In addition to the high level of sound character, the real time
controls adds an aggressive dynamic. It seems much easier to be bold .

I am not much for programming or tweaking. Using Kronos as an example, AL-1, Mod7 and Str-1 have great
potential. But there is no new high level [Korg level] programming . Karma is dead in the water. Another
fantastic tool on Kronos where the potential was not aggressively pursued.

I am hoping that Fantom will break glass on high level sound potential- where the user can
get dramatic results quickly vs months of complex and deep menu diving.

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: GregC] #3007252 09/09/19 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by GregC
Fantom is a board that will take the musician into a new direction.


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: Synthoid] #3007254 09/09/19 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Synthoid
Originally Posted by GregC
Fantom is a board that will take the musician into a new direction.


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007258 09/09/19 01:32 PM
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to expensive....nice ax though.


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: Legatoboy] #3007268 09/09/19 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Legatoboy
to expensive....nice ax though.


yes, $4000 is a lot of money. Initially.

I look at high priced keyboards long term. As in creating great music on them 5-10 years.

When the high price is amortized over 5-10 years, that justifies the purchase.

I understand, many buyers see boards as more impulse, something to play with
for 1-2 years than flip it for something else. For boards under $1500 , sure, thats
to be expected.

Once the ticket gets much larger, I suggest thinking long term, vs switching
out expensive gear every 1-2 years

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007269 09/09/19 02:33 PM
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I’ll jump when it’s $2999.
After all, MONTAGE started at $4500 or thereabouts.
Also, the “included” Roland’s RD-2000 goes for $2000 so a $3000 Fantom8 sounds reasonable.

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007282 09/09/19 03:51 PM
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Hoo boy, having reviewed the Montage in Keyboard, Roland looks like they're really trying to one-up it in a "let's throw the kitchen sink in this thing" sort of way. Ableton-inspired sequencing capabilities, extra panel of synthy knobs on the right, drum pads, Roland's virtual analog ecosystem, etc etc.

I've been asked to review the new Fantom for a quick 2-pager in the "Keyboard" section of Electronic Musician, but we'll have opportunities to talk more in-depth about it here, for sure.

The "does anyone really want a self-contained workstation anymore?" topic is well-trodden. I can say that sequencing on a workstation synth has, for at least the last ten years, felt like building a ship in a bottle compared to what I can do hooking up to a computer. If a keyboard maker could really get the interface right, they theoretically could counter-message that hooking up to a computer feels like, well, hooking up to a computer. There's already a precedent for this in the "DAWless analog and modular" culture, but for those folks, the black-and-white keyboard is not their interface of choice. Interested in the parallels for us old-school players.


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007287 09/09/19 04:16 PM
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Looking forward to reading your review, Stephen.
Meanwhile, is EscapeRocks back from his second visit yet?

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: GregC] #3007292 09/09/19 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by GregC
Originally Posted by Legatoboy
to expensive....nice ax though.


yes, $4000 is a lot of money. Initially.

and also right in line with other top of line boards. Fantom-8, Montage 8, Forte 88, are all $4k. Kronos a little less at $3800, Nord Stage 3 88 higher at $4500.

And assuming you could get the sounds you need from any of them, I'd say the Roland approaches Nord in control surface (even better in some ways), without bringing along Nord's substantial limitations in things like split/layer and MIDI flexibility. I think it's a nice step toward a worthwhile goal of workstation-like depth with Nord-style operational ergonomics. (Too bad they can't compete in travel weight, though.)

I hope they can include an organ that is at least as good as the VR-09.



Last edited by AnotherScott; 09/09/19 04:36 PM.

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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: AnotherScott] #3007296 09/09/19 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by GregC
Originally Posted by Legatoboy
to expensive....nice ax though.


yes, $4000 is a lot of money. Initially.


I hope they can include an organ that is at least as good as the VR-09.




If they do, and assuming you can run the organ out the sub-outs into a vent, and then back in through the inputs a la Kronos, you'll have a fairly decent clonewheel sound, no?

Though saying that, the inputs on the Fantom don't support stereo TRS inputs - just two mono channels. But assuming you can hard pan both, that shouldn't be an issue.

Last edited by N4dr0j; 09/09/19 05:22 PM.

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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: Fleer] #3007302 09/09/19 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Fleer
Looking forward to reading your review, Stephen.
Meanwhile, is EscapeRocks back from his second visit yet?


It's going to be awhile....... I just got busy. Hopefully tonight or tomorrow I'll share my thoughts.


David
Gig Rig: Casio PX-5S | Yamaha MODX6 |

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: Stephen Fortner] #3007304 09/09/19 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Stephen Fortner

The "does anyone really want a self-contained workstation anymore?" topic is well-trodden. I can say that sequencing on a workstation synth has, for at least the last ten years, felt like building a ship in a bottle compared to what I can do hooking up to a computer.


As big an advocate I am for Daws and hosts (Mainstage, GigPerformer), these past couple months using my MODX and PX5S at gigs has been an eye opener. While I streamlined my laptop rig, so setup was fairly easy, having to just plug in two boards and go has been a nice change, especially on Festival shows with quick change over.

So yeah, I welcome an all inclusive...that can still talk to my computers


David
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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: AnotherScott] #3007313 09/09/19 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by GregC
Originally Posted by Legatoboy
to expensive....nice ax though.


yes, $4000 is a lot of money. Initially.

and also right in line with other top of line boards. Fantom-8, Montage 8, Forte 88, are all $4k. Kronos a little less at $3800, Nord Stage 3 88 higher at $4500.


Not at all, at least not hear in Europe. I checked the prices, here they are in $:

Fantom 6: 4042$ Montage 6: 3086$ Kronos: 3076$

That's almost a 1000$ difference!!!

Fantom 8: 4630$ Montage 8: 3777$ Kronos: 3222$

The prices at thomann.de do fluctuate a lot and right now the difference between the Fantom and its competitors from Yamaha and Korg is ridiculous high. The Kronos 88 is still almost 800$ cheaper then the smallest Fantom. Maybe the prices are different on the US market.

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: mojkarma] #3007323 09/09/19 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mojkarma
Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by GregC
Originally Posted by Legatoboy
to expensive....nice ax though.


yes, $4000 is a lot of money. Initially.

and also right in line with other top of line boards. Fantom-8, Montage 8, Forte 88, are all $4k. Kronos a little less at $3800, Nord Stage 3 88 higher at $4500.


Not at all, at least not hear in Europe. I checked the prices, here they are in $:

Fantom 6: 4042$ Montage 6: 3086$ Kronos: 3076$

That's almost a 1000$ difference!!!




why sure. We know that prices are greater outside the US. Many reasons for that

for example, you have nicer weather wink

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007324 09/09/19 07:25 PM
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@GregC, I'm not talking about the higher prices here in Europe compared to the US, I'm well aware of the reasons. I'm talking about the price differences between the Fantom and its competitors on the same (European) market!

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: mojkarma] #3007336 09/09/19 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mojkarma
@GregC, I'm not talking about the higher prices here in Europe compared to the US, I'm well aware of the reasons. I'm talking about the price differences between the Fantom and its competitors on the same (European) market!


I am guessing its roughly comparable delta here in the US

Korg Kronos 61 is $3099- across the board in the US, for example.

I vaguely recall Kronos had some price changes in some non US markets, a few months ago.

If I were you, I would ask for price history past 12 months, for all the models you list.
And maybe your country distributor will have that data and discuss the delta
with you.

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007337 09/09/19 08:56 PM
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Early adopters price?

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007364 09/09/19 11:52 PM
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From a post at Gearslutz...

Quote
-Bank B contains the first 459 patches from the AX-Edge Keytar
-Bank C is the 128 patches from the Integra-7 Synth Legends expansion.
-Bank D contains the 1109 SuperNatural Synth Tones from the Integra-7 / FA synths
-Bank E contains the 896 patches from in the XV-5080.

...and the XV-5080 sound set is also in the FA and Integra-7.

I don't know if the AX-Edge sound set is unique or derived from anything else (or some combination).

Another post says that the Fantom also includes the GM2 set from the Integra-7... that seems to be a subset of what's in its CMN bank. So it has a lot of Integra sounds, but no indication of any of the SuperNatural Acoustic sounds or SRX sounds. The potential "new" sounds for the Fantom appear to be the ones in Bank A, which are almost entirely synth sounds, and the rest of the CMN bank sounds that aren't in the Integra's GM2 set. Separately, there are also banks of V-Pipano sounds and drum sounds.

Also of interest from the manual:

Quote
What is the ZEN-Core engine?
This is a new synthesizer sound engine that was developed using cutting edge technology based on VA technology developed for the V-Synth. It features analog-like response speed and high resolution, allowing you to create a wide range of high-quality sounds. It is also fused with the PCM sound engine developed by Roland for many years, supporting even more sophisticated sound design.


My initial feeling was that the new Jupiter would focus on synth sounds (VA), and the Fantom would be more acoustic instrument (sample) oriented, but it kinda looks like they are both primarily synth boards (albeit different kinds) with acoustic tones in more of a supporting role. For acoustic instrument sounds, Jupiter X and Fantom both have the XV-5080 rompler sound set, and Fantom mostly adds the V-Piano, the Integra GM2 set, and whatever came from the AX-Edge, while the Jupiter adds some or all of the RD-700GX piano sound set. For synth sounds, the Fantom has the SuperNatural Synth engine and whatever new stuff they're doing with the V-Synth derived ZEN-Core engine; the Jupiter X has specific emulations of classic Roland synths (Jupiter 8, Juno-106, SH-101, JX-8P), and we'll see what else. (The SuperNatural and ZEN-core synth sounds of the Fantom? Not sure.)


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007385 09/10/19 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
My initial feeling was that the new Jupiter would focus on synth sounds (VA), and the Fantom would be more acoustic instrument (sample) oriented, but it kinda looks like they are both primarily synth boards (albeit different kinds) with acoustic tones in more of a supporting role.
I too thought the Fantom would feature more acoustic instrument programs than the Jupiter, on balance. As I watched the Fantom videos there seemed to be a disproportionate number of synth vs. acoustic sounds. Other than acoustic piano, all I’ve heard were a few section strings patches. I did look at the patch/voice list and found numerous strings, brass, flute, etc., programs, but if these come from the 5080, that’s really...old?


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007389 09/10/19 03:11 AM
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Yeah, the XV-5080 is going on 20 years old. I believe it was a 64 mb sample set. The newer non-synth sounds in the Fantom would appear to be the V-piano, the GM2 set from the Integra, and the sounds from the AX-Edge, and apart from maybe the V, I don't think that stuff is particularly jaw-dropping. But according to a facebook post, SuperNatural Acoustic tones are supposed to be coming for it at some point.


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007393 09/10/19 03:38 AM
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This thing looks really cool! Good to hear Guitar Center has them already. Hopefully I can try one soon. Won't be buying one soon, way to expensive for my budget. Glad to see the Fantom back though. Maybe this will lower the prices of the older models.

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: AnotherScott] #3007414 09/10/19 08:05 AM
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I have to say, it's been -years- since Roland has got my interest with any of their new products - but all these (apart from the groovebox) are very intriguing. I'm probably gonna go for the JU06A (despite the unforgivably crap polyphony and the miniplug) and/or the Jupiter Xm.

Originally Posted by AnotherScott
From a post at Gearslutz...

Quote
-Bank B contains the first 459 patches from the AX-Edge Keytar
-Bank C is the 128 patches from the Integra-7 Synth Legends expansion.
-Bank D contains the 1109 SuperNatural Synth Tones from the Integra-7 / FA synths
-Bank E contains the 896 patches from in the XV-5080.

...and the XV-5080 sound set is also in the FA and Integra-7.



I know Roland is (at least nowadays) known for recycling most of their sounds, but this actually makes it a very nice "best of" package. Shame about the possible lack of acoustic SN sounds, though, if that is the case.

Originally Posted by Moonglow
Originally Posted by AnotherScott
My initial feeling was that the new Jupiter would focus on synth sounds (VA), and the Fantom would be more acoustic instrument (sample) oriented, but it kinda looks like they are both primarily synth boards (albeit different kinds) with acoustic tones in more of a supporting role.
I too thought the Fantom would feature more acoustic instrument programs than the Jupiter, on balance. As I watched the Fantom videos there seemed to be a disproportionate number of synth vs. acoustic sounds. Other than acoustic piano, all I’ve heard were a few section strings patches. I did look at the patch/voice list and found numerous strings, brass, flute, etc., programs, but if these come from the 5080, that’s really...old?


That's a good point. I was wondering why most of the demos had only the "synthy" stuff on display - maybe this is why. Some people say that the 5080 still holds up, although I'm sure not in "realistic" acoustic tones. I've been getting into rack modules again and have actually been considering one...


Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007447 09/10/19 03:55 PM
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I’m not asking for a full clone wheel experience but it’s a big turnoff if the Fantom is just using organ samples. Does this not even have a basic VR engine?


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: jeffinpghpa] #3007463 09/10/19 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffinpghpa
I’m not asking for a full clone wheel experience but it’s a big turnoff if the Fantom is just using organ samples. Does this not even have a basic VR engine?

That's a bit of an unknown. In one of the demos, Scott Tibbs said that the sliders could be used for drawbar adjustments, but there's no indication of any "organ engine" in the Fantom. Maybe there's something hidden in there somewhere, or maybe they are intending to provide it in an update...?


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: AnotherScott] #3007468 09/10/19 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
there's no indication of any "organ engine" in the Fantom. Maybe there's something hidden in there somewhere, or maybe they are intending to provide it in an update...?


After all this time of not releasing a new big workstation, you'd at least think it would be ready now. Oy! taz


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007469 09/10/19 06:01 PM
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We really don't know how recently they made the decision to re-enter the high-end market, so we don't know how much development time this has had.


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007488 09/10/19 07:39 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,364
Meh - this feels like a "Now with added synth. And extra synth on top of the synth" kind of board. Rather like the Montage with its FM capabilities, except that does have Yamaha's finest acoustic/ROMpler samples as well. If Fantom is harking back to the XV5080 with its ROMpler samples, and not incorporating the Supernatural acoustic tones, and (like Montage) not incorporating a clonewheel engine, then it feels like an EDM tool, rather than a covers band gigging tool. I'll give it points for the V-Piano capabilities, but that doesn't make it a winner (yet) in my book.

And yet the USB capabilities, the pads, the 9 faders, have so much potential...

Cheers, Mike.


AX48.PM351.FC7.VFP2
One or two keyboards.
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