New Roland Fantom

[Mighty Motif Max]

Part D. Areas needing improvement (aside from sound deficiencies covered above) - some of these that are related to hardware might need to be in a Fantom successor rather than an update

 

- The USB interface clips horribly by default. The default output volume is 127; one must lower the volume to 30 to avoid clipping. I have no idea why this is, but it"s weird.

 

- Every OS version thus far has failed to remedy an issue relating to the Fantom freezing when loading samples to the sample pads. Earlier on, users would have the screen remain dark while the sample pads tried to load. Currently with 2.5 the screen will come on and appear ready, but the unit will be frozen while the sample pads attempt to load over and over again. There are a few other variations of this issue as well. In all cases, the Fantom will not power off and must be disconnected from power manually. The trigger right now seems to be having any midi device connected/powered on when the Fantom is started. This is unfortunate for anyone using bus-powered controllers that start up immediately upon receiving power (as I was trying to do with the Novation Launchkey).

 

- Midi controller support over USB seems to be hit or miss. Particularly with CC"s. For example, I can have my bus-powered Launchkey connected over USB midi using the 'Generic' driver setting and the Fantom will sense notes but not sustain, pitch bend, or modulation CC"s. If I connect my MX61 over 5-pin, it works fine and senses everything.

 

- The Audio Input controls are buried under Effects Edit instead of a more logical location.

 

- The sample pads are not velocity sensitive. They also click when pressed, but it feels more like they"re sticking on something. They don"t feel good; they feel cheap. The pads on my PC4, while not used for this purpose, are much better feeling.

 

- The handy realtime synth editing controls on the right side are not recorded to the sequencer, or transmitted over MIDI (from what I understand). You have to assign a fader to the CC you want to change (i.e. cutoff) to do that.

 

- The Single Tone View function isn"t very intuitive, in that if you press exit after choosing a tone and then want to go back into single tone view it erases your previous selection(s) unless you save the actual tone itself. That is very annoying.

 

- The aftertouch is nearly impossible to trigger on black keys, and quite difficult still on the white keys. It"s on par with the worn-out AT strip in my 1993 JV-1000.

 

- V-Piano tones are limited to Channel 1, and VTW tones are limited to Channel 2. This is annoying in that you can"t have a secondary midi controller transmitting on channel 2 for all your songs, then want to play a VTW organ patch on the main keyboard while still having another sound etc played from your midi controller. Since the V-Piano engine has unlimited polyphony, it is preferable to use this for your pianos, as a lot of the patches on the Fantom are polyphony-hungry. That can"t be sent up to your midi controller unless you have it transmitting on Channel 1, which then requires you to program every other Scene to have different channel assignments; that"s great until you want to have a V-Piano tone on your main keyed again and something else on your midi board. Which brings me to my last pointâ¦which isâ¦

 

- The Virtual Tonewheel Organ engine does not sense Leslie speed change (or even the tone wheel start/stop) from the mod wheel or pitch wheel of a connected midi controller. On the Fantom 7 these are assigned to the joystick left/right (Leslie speed), joystick up y-axis (Leslie brake), and and tone wheel speed up (PB wheel) and slow down/stop (mod wheel). None of these parameters change when using an external controller"s mod wheel or pitch bend wheel.

 

 

 

That about covers it for now. Let me know any questions you have!

[Mighty Motif Max]

Fantom OS 3.0 is available! Details from Roland:

 

[ Additional Functions ]

• The EXM007 n/zyme Model Expansion is now supported.
• Three types of effects have been added to MFX.

[ Functionality Improvements ]

• A pattern can now contain up to 64 measures.
• The beat can now be set in combination.

[ Bug Fixes ]
The following bugs were fixed.

• Nonexistent clips appear during integration with Ableton Live11.
• Certain WAV files cannot be read into the pad sampler.
• With the SH-101 Model Expansion, when G-AMP is selected for AMP ENV SEL, the ENV setting for PW MODE has no effect.
• When Tx Edit is set to ON, some Overdrive or Rotary parameters for VTW tones are not output via MIDI.
• When using the combination of Structure and Partial Delay in ZEN-CORE Tone, system freezing may occur when hitting the same key repeatedly.
• The timing of sound production for SN-A tones is sometimes irregular.
• With SN-A tones, tones in the E.BASS category cannot be muted smoothly.
• When CC 68 (Legato Switch) has been assigned to a knob, it cannot be turned off by operating the knob.
• The level meter display for MIXER sometimes fails to apply settings correctly.
• The default level of USB audio output has been revised.
• The first MIDI message sent after startup sometimes fails to be sent smoothly via USB MIDI.
• The Low Gain and High Gain characteristics shown on the EQ display screen are incorrect.
• Muting is applied when the Type parameter is changed while a MFX or TFX is set to OFF.

[Mighty Motif Max]

ROLAND UNVEILS N/ZYME MODEL EXPANSION

Innovative New Synthesizer Engine Brings Fresh Creative Power to FANTOM Keyboards

For Immediate Release

Rebecca Genel
Global PR/Media Relations Manager
Roland Corporation
(323) 890-3718
Rebecca.Genel@roland.com

Los Angeles, CA, January 20, 2022 —Roland announces the n/zyme Model Expansion for the FANTOM synthesizer series, the latest addition to the acclaimed ZEN-Core Model Expansion lineup. Built for hands-on sound design, n/zyme is a thoroughly modern instrument with an innovative new synth engine from Roland. Offering layered wavetable oscillators, phase and shape modulation, resonant filters, and two powerful step LFOs, n/zyme is a highly interactive music tool that brings a new dimension of creative power to all FANTOM owners.

Wavetable-based synths are famous for their distinctive sound, but many can be hard to program. FANTOM’s hi-res touchscreen and physical controls change all that, making n/zyme a fun, tactile instrument that inspires players to take their music into uncharted sonic territory. In contrast with basic synthesizer waveforms, wavetable oscillators employ multiple waveforms, and it’s possible to jump or morph between them for everything from dramatic shifts to slowly evolving soundscapes. With the ability to mix two layers with 63 wavetables each and adjust their positions in real time, n/zyme makes it easy for creators to develop complex textures in the heat of the moment.

Players can physically shape the sound of n/zyme by drawing custom waveforms right on FANTOM’s touchscreen, and then tweak them using a range of powerful modulation tools. It’s also possible to manipulate sounds with an X/Y pad on the touchscreen, complete with automation support and tempo-synced control over speed, intensity, and more.

Two onboard Step LFOs feature 16 tempo-synced steps and 37 different shapes per step. There’s also a Step Kick Switch to add percussive attack for deeply rhythmic sounds and phrases. Going further, users can process n/zyme’s futuristic oscillators with FANTOM’s eight onboard filter types, including detailed models of vintage analog designs.

With FANTOM’s massive DSP power, players can layer multiple n/zymes for ultra-deep tones with sophisticated movement. It’s also possible to mix n/zyme with classic Roland synthesizers, acoustic instruments, and vocoders to craft sounds never heard before.

n/zyme is the latest in a growing lineup of Model Expansions for ZEN-Core instruments and is available via a Lifetime Key purchase through Roland Cloud. Support for n/zyme is included with the free Version 3.0 update for the FANTOM 6, FANTOM 7, and FANTOM 8 keyboards.

Availability & Pricing

The Roland n/zyme Model Expansion for the FANTOM synthesizer series is available now as a Lifetime Key for $149 through Roland Cloud.

For the full press kit, including hi-res images, videos, and more, click here.

To learn more about the n/zyme Model Expansion and Roland Cloud, visit Roland.com.

*Price at the time of publishing.

---------

About Roland Corporation
For nearly 50 years, Roland’s innovative electronic musical instruments and multimedia products have fueled inspiration in artists and creators around the world. Embraced by hobbyists and professionals alike, the company’s trendsetting gear spans multiple categories, from pianos, synthesizers, guitar products, and electronic percussion to DJ controllers, audio/video solutions, livestreaming products, and more. As technology evolves, Roland continues to lead the way for gigging musicians, producers, and beatmakers, providing modern software-based solutions and seamless creative workflows between hardware products, computers, and mobile devices. For more information, visit Roland.com or see your local Roland dealer.

[Mighty Motif Max]

 

[Mighty Motif Max]

n/zyme appears to be a wavetable synth engine. Unlike the previous MODEL expansions, this one costs $149.

[GovernorSilver]

I saw another $149 Model Expansion.   It was either the JD-800 or the JX-8P - I forgot exactly which.  They both came up in discussions about the 2 newest Boutiques

[Mighty Motif Max]

Just now, GovernorSilver said:

I saw another $149 Model Expansion.   It was either the JD-800 or the JX-8P - I forgot exactly which.  They both came up in discussions about the 2 newest Boutiques

Well, the JX-8P is free for FANTOM owners (right now at least - Roland *does* like to say "limited time"). The JD-800 expansion isn't compatible with the FANTOM boards yet, so we'll have to wait and see if they do charge for that version.

[lutefiasco]

Anyone see - what are the three new types of MFX?

[GovernorSilver]

7 minutes ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Well, the JX-8P is free for FANTOM owners (right now at least - Roland *does* like to say "limited time"). The JD-800 expansion isn't compatible with the FANTOM boards yet, so we'll have to wait and see if they do charge for that version.

Lucky FANTOM owners - the ones who wanted JX-8P.

I'm just saying I saw the $149 price on another Model Expansion.   I think it was the JD-800 one.  There was a guy who was asking me of all people why he couldn't buy a JD-08 and install all the ZenCore sound packs on it.   It came up during this conversation.

[jeffincltnc]

I think the 3.0 update and the demos for n/zyme by gattobus are fantastic.  Some of the sounds make me think of Pigments.   My Fantom 8 has become a lot more fun to play over the last couple of years with the models of Jupiter 8, JX8P, SH-101 and Juno 106, plus the modeled VK organ.   Putting this into the box with some of the improvements on the sequencing makes this a hell of a box for a home studio, deep integration with Logic and Mainstage in the touchscreen UI, high build quality, great hammer action for V-piano.

 

So glad to see this.  I was considering putting Fantom on the sale block a couple times and not sure if I really needed it for home use, but I'm a happy owner almost 2 years in.

[xp50player]

13 hours ago, lutefiasco said:

Anyone see - what are the three new types of MFX?

Phonograph, JD Multi and Exciter

[Cabo]

 

Excellent review / overview - Thanks Max.  

 

It's surprising how much of your sound descriptions I agree with, especially the Wurli and Clav comments -- they are truly dreadful and that's disappointing.  

 

I do have question with the electric basses--

 

On 1/15/2022 at 4:18 PM, Mighty Motif Max said:

 

- Electric Basses: Excellent! The SuperNatural electric basses in particular feel nicely playable and sound quite good. They are close to, if not virtually on par with, Yamaha's electric bass offerings.

 

 

I like the sound of the SuperNatural Electric Basses, but for some reason, for the Finger Basses (1st 5 tones) the low E gets super loud when you hit them hard and seems to trigger a more bass-y sound.  I tried to fix it by adjusting the velocity, but no luck.  It makes it unusable for me.

 

 

 

[Stokely]

Wow, very nice detailed write-up!

I don't use wurlis much but I do use clav (including on some non-keyboard songs when I get tired of organ, these are my two go-tos for being a "rhythm guitar player".)  That's disappointing to hear.

I have to say that the idea of a Fantom 7 is growing on me, Scott mentioned it as a contender in a discussion of alternatives to my PC4 (which is apparently perpetually-backordered).  I don't mind playing piano on a nice synth action, heck I'm doing ok on the MODX7's action so just about anything would be a step up for piano    This discussion has started hitting me in the nostalgia glands just like the JX boutique thread did...the idea of a big well-built modern JX-10 (ok sorta) that can also do a ton of other sounds that I couldn't get in the 80s feels very full circle!

For marquee two-keyboard gigs--as I think of them, while many of mine I'm wanting to go with just one--the idea of a Mojo above a Fantom has a lot going for it.  I don't particularly care for the MODX clavs either.   

Are the purgatory creek clavs really good?  I hear a lot about the EPs, and I do like a good Rhodes, but not much about the clavs.  If they are really good I might load it into the MODX but I have to be sure I'm going to keep it.

[Mighty Motif Max]

6 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Wow, very nice detailed write-up!

I don't use wurlis much but I do use clav (including on some non-keyboard songs when I get tired of organ, these are my two go-tos for being a "rhythm guitar player".)  That's disappointing to hear.

...I don't particularly care for the MODX clavs either.   

Are the purgatory creek clavs really good?  I hear a lot about the EPs, and I do like a good Rhodes, but not much about the clavs.  If they are really good I might load it into the MODX but I have to be sure I'm going to keep it.

I found some slightly better clavinets in the EXZ011 expansion, which apparently got wiped out when I did the OS update(?)...along with EXZ004 Power Drums and EXZ015 Vintage Synth, but those aren't improvements over anything else I already mentioned so my commentary still stands for synths and drums. The EXZ011 clavs are a little better, but still not up to the level of other boards I have. I'm actually a fan of the Motif XF clavs, which I'm guessing are close to the MODX clavs. The Purgatory Creek clavinets have a different timbre to them versus the Yamaha clavs...less "hollow" sounding might be a way to describe some of it.

[Mighty Motif Max]

On 1/21/2022 at 1:38 PM, Cabo said:

 

Excellent review / overview - Thanks Max.  

 

It's surprising how much of your sound descriptions I agree with, especially the Wurli and Clav comments -- they are truly dreadful and that's disappointing.  

 

I do have question with the electric basses--

 

 

I like the sound of the SuperNatural Electric Basses, but for some reason, for the Finger Basses (1st 5 tones) the low E gets super loud when you hit them hard and seems to trigger a more bass-y sound.  I tried to fix it by adjusting the velocity, but no luck.  It makes it unusable for me.

 

 

 

I just checked that with the SN finger basses...I don't notice it at all. They do have a slight change in timbre, sort of a darker sound at high velocities.. Perhaps you've found a resonance point in your speakers or room?

[Mighty Motif Max]

On 1/11/2022 at 7:53 PM, AnotherScott said:

The approach I would probably take wouldn't require any preset space on the controller. Set it up once to simultaneously transmit on channels 9-12. After that, just use the Montage to call up the patch for the song at hand, and place the sounds you want the second board to trigger in Parts 9-12, and you're done. The second board will always play the correct sounds for the song, over the desired set of keys. Up to 4 Parts' worth, anyway. If you want to play 8 simultaneous Montage from the controller, then the controller has too be an 8-zone controller instead of a 4, which is less common, But you could go that way, and just put all the desired externally-triggerable sounds in parts 9-16, to be triggered by the controller sending on 9-16.

...

Believe it or not, it appears that even THIS work around does not work on the Fantom. Which means the Montage is actually set up slightly better (!). Let me explain...

 

Roland does allow you to freely assign sounds to different midi channels...i.e. you can set strings, brass, and a synth to all be on channel 3, with splits/layers as well. It also can freely zone sounds across 16 midi channels. So theoretically one should be able to either connect a controller transmitting on one midi channel and play all Fantom sounds assigned to that midi channel with their splits and layers intact, or alternatively have your controller transmitting on all 16 channels and just assign different splits and layers across those channels from the Fantom. Right? Here's where it falls apart.

 

Neither of those scenarios is possible with the Fantom currently! I tried setting the Fantom up with my PC4 (a single-zone multi and a 16-zone-simulteneously multi both). You can only either play a single sound from your controller or you can play ALL tones on every midi channel you're transmitting on, BUT with NO SPLIT/LAYERS intact. So you get every sound on those channels across all 88 keys (or however many keys your controller has). Even if you set a bunch of sounds to, say Channel 1 on the Fantom, you'll get all those sounds but with no split/layer data.

 

There was a feature touted in an update called "Remote Keyboard Switch" that was supposed to help address this. It does not - it simply mirrors the entire Fantom keybed onto your midi controller, meaning whatever is playable from the Fantom (splits, layers, etc) is playable the same way on your controller, with all those splits and layers intact. The problem is, you can't play ANYTHING ELSE on the Fantom and have the controller keep those splits and layers. So all you're doing is duplicating the Fantom's current settings. There's no way to play another sound on the Fantom and have the controller play that big split/layer setup since you're just mirroring exactly what's currently playable on the Fantom.

 

So...your only option is to manually set up all your splits and layers from your midi controller, which (if you're doing a setup per song with different splits/layers each) means you will need a controller with lots of user preset space (basically something like a Kurzweil PC4). That is ridiculous...even the Montage/MODX works a bit better (which I never thought I'd be saying), since you can retain your splits/layers when playing parts from a multi-zone midi controller! You can't even do THAT work around on the Fantom!

 

The Fantom seems to be set up well to be a master controller itself, but this makes it really poor as a master sound source unless you want to have to program 2 keyboards with a setup per song each...just to do the job of one "brain".

 

Another thing to note - Roland touts a "Chord Memory" feature. One might think that's something like Kurzweil's ability to assign individual chords to up to 12 keys (and the chords are fully user-defined in terms of notes). It's not. You cannot define what notes the chords play. What you instead have are a number of factory preset progressions and/or simply the same chord (i.e. a minor 7th) transposed up into every key (i.e. you play a Bb and get a Bbm chord, play a D and get a Dm chord). I think that leaves Kurzweil as the only contender that can do that currently (not counting limited-number of presets controllers like the Novation Launchkey which can do chord pads as well). That feature is actually why I was trying to sync up the Fantom and PC4...some of this modern pop stuff has too many parts to play straight without backing tracks unless you cheat a little with chord memory. So a win for Kurzweil!

[AnotherScott]

15 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Neither of those scenarios is possible with the Fantom currently! I tried setting the Fantom up with my PC4 (a single-zone multi and a 16-zone-simulteneously multi both). You can only either play a single sound from your controller or you can play ALL tones on every midi channel you're transmitting on, BUT with NO SPLIT/LAYERS intact. So you get every sound on those channels across all 88 keys (or however many keys your controller has). Even if you set a bunch of sounds to, say Channel 1 on the Fantom, you'll get all those sounds but with no split/layer data.

I believe that's also how the Roland FA works. I'm not sure, but this may be a difference between the entire Yamaha and Roland lines, that externally driven Yamaha sounds respect internally defined split points, and Roland's do not. 

 

This may somehow be related to the internal architecture of the boards (as opposed to being merely a differentiation in the way a feature was implemented). Yamaha internally triggers its sound engine via MIDI... that is, when you play a note on a MODX (Motif, whatever), it sends the MIDI command for playing that note to the sound engine. The Yamaha implementation of this also means that, if you have the keyboard set up with a split, and you hit Transpose to, say, move everything down a semitone, it does this by shifting the MIDI Note On command down by one, which means not only does everything sound a semitone lower, but you'll also find that your split point has appeared to move a half-step higher. From a MIDI perspective, it hasn't really moved, the same sounds are still assigned to the same MIDI notes, but since those notes are now being triggered by different keys, the split will be in a different place when you play. It can be a real problem if you have a split set up very precisely for a song, and the singer wants to drop the key, and now some of your notes will play the wrong sound. There is a solution for that which generally works (as long as you're playing internal sounds only), but I don't want to derail the thread for that here. What matters here is that Rolands don't work that way... when you transpose, it seems you're not doing it simply by changing MIDI Note events, because the transpose works without changing the split point (which would not be possible with the Yamaha approach of simply adding to or subtracting from the MIDI Note number). And this is actually how most people would prefer it, advantage Roland. BUT this means that, unlike on a Yamaha, Roland key ranges are not tied to MIDI note locations.

 

IOW, if my understanding of what's going on is correct, because Yamaha's method of triggering its internal sounds is strictly tied to MIDI NOTE events (unlike Roland), the key ranges (split points) must be observed over MIDI, or they wouldn't be able to work at all! So I think it's not that Yamaha specifically programmed MODX to respect split points when channels were triggered observed MIDI; rather it can't not respect them, it's the only way splits can work, it's part of the fundamental architecture of the board. Roland, OTOH, somehow separates the MIDI functionality from the key range functionality, such that one can transpose the pitches without altering which keys are playing which sound. Looked at that way, it's a feature, not a bug. But since a sound's split point is not determined by MIDI location in the first place, it makes sense that the split point would not normally be seen when the channel is triggered over MIDI either.

 

So unlike Yamaha's architecture, where they basically had to "do nothing" for the feature to work the way you want it to, Roland would have to figure out some way to do it in their very different architecture where note ranges are not tied to MIDI locations. It would be cool if they added that ability to "zone" an external keyboard. Without knowing the ins and outs of their architecture, we don't know if it would be easy to do, hard to do, or impossible to do (nor do we know if they would care about trying to do it anyway). But regardless, it's nothing these Rolands do today. So if you need that, yeah, you have to go with a Yamaha for that one. Maybe a Korg? I'm not sure how their workstations handle this. Or you could go with a Kurzweil, which, as is so often the case when it comes to MIDI, I'm pretty sure does it all just the way you'd want it to. I know that Kurz transpose keeps your split points where you want them, and I'm pretty sure it can zone an external keyboard, too. Whether it does it automatically (like Yamaha does, because I believe it architecturally can't do otherwise), or there is something else you need to do to implement that zoning, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure I read that that function was added to the Kurz OS some years back, unless I'm mixing it up with something else.

 

ETA: I suspect Korg's workstation approach is similar to Yamaha's, because (a) unlike with Roland, I don't remember ever reading someone complain that external boards didn't respect part key ranges, and (b) the biggest drawback of Yamaha's approach is the unfortunate way the transpose buttons work in conjunction with splits... and Korg is kind of famous for not having transpose buttons, which you have to admit, would be one way of avoiding that problem.

[Mighty Motif Max]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I believe that's also how the Roland FA works. I'm not sure, but this may be a difference between the entire Yamaha and Roland lines, that externally driven Yamaha sounds respect internally defined split points, and Roland's do not. 

 

This may somehow be related to the internal architecture of the boards (as opposed to being merely a differentiation in the way a feature was implemented). Yamaha internally triggers its sound engine via MIDI... that is, when you play a note on a MODX (Motif, whatever), it sends the MIDI command for playing that note to the sound engine. The Yamaha implementation of this also means that, if you have the keyboard set up with a split, and you hit Transpose to, say, move everything down a semitone, it does this by shifting the MIDI Note On command down by one, which means not only does everything sound a semitone lower, but you'll also find that your split point has appeared to move a half-step higher. From a MIDI perspective, it hasn't really moved, the same sounds are still assigned to the same MIDI notes, but since those notes are now being triggered by different keys, the split will be in a different place when you play. It can be a real problem if you have a split set up very precisely for a song, and the singer wants to drop the key, and now some of your notes will play the wrong sound. There is a solution for that which generally works (as long as you're playing internal sounds only), but I don't want to derail the thread for that here. What matters here is that Rolands don't work that way... when you transpose, it seems you're not doing it simply by changing MIDI Note events, because the transpose works without changing the split point (which would not be possible with the Yamaha approach of simply adding to or subtracting from the MIDI Note number). And this is actually how most people would prefer it, advantage Roland. BUT this means that, unlike on a Yamaha, Roland key ranges are not tied to MIDI note locations.

 

IOW, if my understanding of what's going on is correct, because Yamaha's method of triggering its internal sounds is strictly tied to MIDI NOTE events (unlike Roland), the key ranges (split points) must be observed over MIDI, or they wouldn't be able to work at all! So I think it's not that Yamaha specifically programmed MODX to respect split points when channels were triggered observed MIDI; rather it can't not respect them, it's the only way splits can work, it's part of the fundamental architecture of the board. Roland, OTOH, somehow separates the MIDI functionality from the key range functionality, such that one can transpose the pitches without altering which keys are playing which sound. Looked at that way, it's a feature, not a bug. But since a sound's split point is not determined by MIDI location in the first place, it makes sense that the split point would not normally be seen when the channel is triggered over MIDI either.

 

...

That's definitely a possibility, as that would certainly explain why Roland has not implemented it yet in the Fantom (or possibly in other boards). Your point about the transpose functionality differences between Yamaha and Roland is interesting...I've never run into that issue, but that's probably because the Motif XF, which is my primary keyboard (and only pro-grade Yamaha not counting the old YS200), doesn't actually have any transpose features immediately accessible. You could theoretically use the global tune settings to lower or raise everything, but otherwise you're limited to octave shifts up and down from the front panel. If you want to transpose things, you have to go into your individual Performance or Mixing setup/Multi and note shift every individual patch. At which point you can re-define split points right there as well. So I've never once actually had any issues with splits transposing onto incorrect keys and that sort of thing with Yamaha. But that's kind of like your point about Korg's usual omission of transpose features to, eh?

 

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

...

So unlike Yamaha's architecture, where they basically had to "do nothing" for the feature to work the way you want it to, Roland would have to figure out some way to do it in their very different architecture where note ranges are not tied to MIDI locations. It would be cool if they added that ability to "zone" an external keyboard. Without knowing the ins and outs of their architecture, we don't know if it would be easy to do, hard to do, or impossible to do (nor do we know if they would care about trying to do it anyway). But regardless, it's nothing these Rolands do today. So if you need that, yeah, you have to go with a Yamaha for that one. Maybe a Korg? I'm not sure how their workstations handle this. Or you could go with a Kurzweil, which, as is so often the case when it comes to MIDI, I'm pretty sure does it all just the way you'd want it to. I know that Kurz transpose keeps your split points where you want them, and I'm pretty sure it can zone an external keyboard, too. Whether it does it automatically (like Yamaha does, because I believe it architecturally can't do otherwise), or there is something else you need to do to implement that zoning, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure I read that that function was added to the Kurz OS some years back, unless I'm mixing it up with something else.

I would love it if Roland did add that feature, but like you said who knows how difficult or easy it is to add if their architecture is that different. I'm really curious how they defined split points and zones without using midi, especially once sounds are shifted onto one midi channel (which you can do). Maybe a hardware keybed sensor or something? Could be a rabbit hole lol.

 

Anyways, Kurzweil can absolutely do this (at least the current PC4/Forte/K2700, not sure about the SP6/PC4SE/older boards). I did a week of twice-daily gigs that relied on the PC4 and Yamaha MX61 which required lots of zoning from the PC4 side for the MX61, which I basically kept running on Channel 1 for external control and Channel 2 for its own sounds to be triggered by the PC4 (or vice versa, which required getting the PC4 and MX61 to actually talk to each other for program changes [and a calculator]). This is how you would set up any zone on the PC4 to be controlled only by an external keyboard (ignore the transpose settings and program change stuff, but the other settings are important). The key is setting your input channel to [channel #] M (for MIDI) and setting the Destination to LOCAL. You can do this for any zone you want your controller to play, then just set the note ranges via the regular Multi overview page. It works great once you get the hang of it.

 

 

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

ETA: I suspect Korg's workstation approach is similar to Yamaha's, because (a) unlike with Roland, I don't remember ever reading someone complain that external boards didn't respect part key ranges, and (b) the biggest drawback of Yamaha's approach is the unfortunate way the transpose buttons work in conjunction with splits... and Korg is kind of famous for not having transpose buttons, which you have to admit, would be one way of avoiding that problem.

I could set my Krome up to work just like my Motif in that regard, so Korg also has this functionality. There are slightly different ways of accomplishing it of course, but the underlying principle of having zones remain over midi works on Yamaha, Korg, and Kurzweil.

 

And yeah, simply omitting the transpose controls does work. Which is what Yamaha did with my Motif XF8 as well.

[AnotherScott]

39 minutes ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

probably because the Motif XF...doesn't actually have any transpose features immediately accessible. You could theoretically use the global tune settings to lower or raise everything

 

That's the MODX workaround... you do a global Note Shift, and then you can transpose for the song and all your split settings stay where you want them. The problem is, it's not a MIDI function, its an entirely internal manipulation of the pitches of the sounds. Since MIDI output is not affected, if your splits/layers include any external zones, those will NOT be shifted. So if you use Note Shift to transpose your playing down a whole step, the sounds coming from your external gear will not be shifted, instead remaining in the original key. Obviously an imperfect solution. ;-)

 

There are other ways to achieve the results you want, the problem is that they take more time, shifting things in multiple places, making those methods impractical for shifting "on the fly" e.g. when you're about to start a song and the singer asks you to drop it a step. If you've got no external sounds, it's fine. If you do, you have to go with the other method and live with displaced split points.

[Cabo]

On 1/30/2022 at 12:11 AM, Mighty Motif Max said:

I just checked that with the SN finger basses...I don't notice it at all. They do have a slight change in timbre, sort of a darker sound at high velocities.. Perhaps you've found a resonance point in your speakers or room?

 

Nope, I'm using headphones and it's the same through speakers too.  If I repeatedly play the E0 note (and below) with SN-A PRST 0021:Fing Bass 2, it blasts the low end much more than notes above E0 at high velocities.

 

 

[Mighty Motif Max]

21 minutes ago, Cabo said:

 

Nope, I'm using headphones and it's the same through speakers too.  If I repeatedly play the E0 note (and below) with SN-A PRST 0021:Fing Bass 2, it blasts the low end much more than notes above E0 at high velocities.

 

 

Interesting...I'm using headphones that, if anything, have too much bass response (closed-back isolating headphones from Direct Sound) and I don't notice it. I just notice a timbral shift to a darker, woodier tone, but not necessarily something that's even more bass-y. I mean, an open string on a real bass might be a little more resonant, but not like you're describing I don't think.

[AnotherScott]

On 1/30/2022 at 5:01 PM, Mighty Motif Max said:

I'm really curious how they defined split points and zones without using midi, especially once sounds are shifted onto one midi channel (which you can do). Maybe a hardware keybed sensor or something?

 

Yeah, it's interesting, and I'm not very knowledgable about the guts of these things. But in the 70s and into the 80s, keyboards communicated "directly" to the sound generating electronics (i.e. not via MIDI) because MIDI didn't yet exist. Then when MIDI came along, that didn't necessarily change, MIDI could have been implemented as a separate thing just for external linkage (in fact, back then, you could even often get MIDI retrofits to add MIDI to keyboards that didn't have it to begin with). Today, I don't know how prevalent one design is over the other, but the Yamahas we're talking about would be an example of boards that appear to use MIDI both internally and externally, while other boards seemingly do not, based on their behavior. Besides this Roland situation, I'm also thinking about various organ-centric boards that can trigger their sounds from a shallow sensor point internally, but only use the deep sensor point when transmitting over MIDI. There is definitely some difference between how they are processing key information internally vs. externally.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Since the Virtual ToneWheel engine has received much attention but rather little commentary, here's a playthrough of all of the VTW presets in the Fantom, plus three user presets at the end. The engine is quite tweakable. After working with it some I think I prefer it over the KB3 in my PC4 for sure. I've used it live (hopefully that video will be available soon) in a very exposed organ trio context and it sounded pretty good, especially for me as someone who doesn't play B3 patches all that much.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

19 minutes ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

After working with it some I think I prefer it over the KB3 in my PC4 for sure.

I agree. Though I haven't spent much time with it, and both have aspects where I might prefer one over the other, if I had to pick one of the two, it would be the Roland. For the key click alone! I need to experiment more with the overdrive options on the Roland, though. (And maybe some EQ?) 

[Mighty Motif Max]

I wrapped up a week of worship gigs (3/day, 6 days) last week using just the Fantom 7. My verdict? This keyboard is very well set-up for a live player...multiple times I had to program scenes or edit zones on the fly during the gig due to last minute set changes and changes right before or during a song. I was pretty quickly able to get what I needed in short order, something I definitely would have NOT been able to do on my Motif. This is mainly due to the presence of the Zone switch buttons and keyboard switch groups, which took away the issue of merging midi channels and consequently momentarily not having all your sounds available while that specific zone was being switched to your main midi channel. So I could keep playing while adding and editing zones. Also being able to switch the drawbars to display in any scene using an organ by pressing SW2 (you can set this in System Settings or your Scene itself) came in very handy.

 

The rest of the verdict? The guitars really do absolutely suck, as do the Wurlis, to the point of being virtually unusable. The guitars sucked so bad that I ended up sampling my Yamaha electric just to get a passable backing electric guitar layer patch, which wasn't that fantastic either, but were significantly better than the Roland sounds (which says something about the lack of effort put into the Roland patches/samples). The other sounds I can get close enough to what I need for the most part (although a decent celesta would be nice), especially for a live setting. For the majority of our songs my piano was a custom V-Piano preset I cooked up, as I didn't like any of the stock presets that much. Most of the songs with Hammond I used custom VTW presets as well, as I don't care for most of the factory VTW presets either (among other things, the rotary speed is not quite where I like it). Probably 70% of the songs I was just using a V-Piano patch and a VTW Hammond patch, which to me says that those are pretty strong points of the Fantom. Would I want to do high-profile solo piano gigs with the V-Piano? Maybe for pop music. Otherwise, it's not quite where I want it, but for anything other than a solo piano gig or super exposed jazz trio I think the V-Piano is more than good enough. Which is a surprise to me honestly as I hadn't been that impressed in the past with Roland pianos.

 

The gig was ALSO in stereo, for the first time in ages, and that made a big difference in what the audience heard it seems. I head lots of positive comments on the keys sounds from lots of people over the week, and I think the thing I heard the most often was that the keys patches sounded really clean. Interesting. Overall the F7 is a keeper, and a very fun board for live gigs. I really do like the VTW engine...and I even had an occasional excuse to use the tonewheels turning on effect. I've also been able to tweak the velocity curve plus the velocity offset to get a pretty decent piano playing response.

 

One thing that could really be improved - when switching between switch groups the "main zone" you land on is whatever the lowest number is that is enabled (i.e. if you switch to a group with zones 3, 4, and 7, your "main zone" that is selected is zone 3). It would be a great feature to be able to choose what zone is selected automatically, due to the fact that none of the VTW engine controls are recognized when any zone other than Zone 2 is selected. What I found myself doing was switching to a new switch group and then rushing to switch the selected zone to Zone 2 to have the rotary speed and drawbars work. So that would be a great feature addition!

 

[allan_evett]

On 7/3/2022 at 9:09 PM, Mighty Motif Max said:

The guitars really do absolutely suck, as do the Wurlis, to the point of being virtually unusable.

 

On 7/3/2022 at 9:09 PM, Mighty Motif Max said:

For the majority of our songs my piano was a custom V-Piano preset I cooked up, as I didn't like any of the stock presets that much. Most of the songs with Hammond I used custom VTW presets as well...

 

This closely matches my last live gig with the Fantom 7, which was fall of 2021.  Though I've often used it in a two-keys rig, that gig was first with the Fantom as my main instrument. My Stage 3, 76 was in the shop, so I programmed a couple handfuls of Tones 'n Scenes and plunged in.  The pianos worked very well, though the SN Tones are still my preference for band mixes.  The Rhodes sounds were passable, Wurlis not so much.  Strings/pads layered over piano are top-notch; the synth models and string samples/blends are stellar - typical for Roland.  I like the VTW organs, they can be almost-abnormally clean or down-n-dirty. Though if I want to get as close to real tonewheels as feasible - w/o moving furniture, the IK MM/Hammond B3-X app is it, over anything else I own.

 

While I did use some of the guitar tones in a JP-50, ten years back, there are much better guitar emulations among other brands. I agree, Roland still has some catching up to do there.  When I do need to cover rhythm backing, Yamaha is still ahead of the pack; the Voices/amp sims/FX in the YC88 are freakishly good.  And the Rhodes and Wurlis in that one are some of the strongest I've played in a hardware instrument.   Meanwhile, Korg seems to cover almost all of the above quite well, too. I've been working a Nautilus 61 into my live rig, 2nd-tier, since last fall. 

 

The Fantom is a very strong instrument, and I sure like having it as a sound resource in my teaching/writing workspace.  Considering the state of my iMac (which is not aging gracefully), relying on hardware-based tones, etc. is helpful - especially when the Fantom's sequencer save my behind when Logic - via the iMac - went belly-up during a paying project last year. 

[Mighty Motif Max]

Exciting news from Roland. https://articles.roland.com/roland-engineering-designing-fantom/

 

"What can FANTOM users look forward to soon?  

The FANTOM Development Team has been working hard to unveil a massive breakthrough: bringing Analog Circuit Behavior (ACB) to FANTOM. We are excited to share this, plus other new expansions and features, with all FANTOM users very soon."

[Mighty Motif Max]

Fantom EX Upgrade: https://www.roland.com/us/products/rc_fantom_ex_upgrade/

 

Adds 2 pianos (SuperNatural Acoustic Piano 3, German Concert V-Piano), ACB synthesis, JD-800 model, the previously-released n-zyme model, and new Shimmer and Mod reverb effects. $199 - wish it was cheaper but IIRC that's cheaper than the n-zyme was on its own.