Dependable, reliable Midi Controller?

[Bossbandbob]

Is there any well made, reliable 61/49 key midi controller under 400$ good for organ out there? I'm not asking here about the feel of the keys, sliders or knobs. It seems like many reviews I have read about the Edirols, Novations, M-Audios and others complain about dead or intermitent keys, dead screens, software that won't work, etc. I'm thinking that the Casio XW P1 is probably the better choice than any of those in that price range with a lot of its own sounds for back up.

[CEB]

If it has to be $400 or less I would probably look at the Arturia KeyLab 61. The controller feels decent. Not a great action but it does have some substance. The documentation support kind of sucks. It comes with some Arturia soft synths also. Some of the soft synths sound great. Installing them can be painful..... Arturia support is not the best.

 

The Novation SL 61 MKII is good. But only 8 sliders. You would need to assign a knob to act as the missing drawbar control.

 

The Novation Impulse 61 has 9 sliders but feels cheap IMO. I wouldn't trust it to be part of my working rig.

 

Personally what I would really try to do if I needed a dedicated VB3 controller would be to try to swing a Studiologic VMK-161 Organ but it is $700. But if I needed a dedicated organ controller for semi regular gig schedule or heavier I would try for something better than most of these sub $400 controllers. I just don't trust them. If this is strictly for at home use then it would be anything goes because the computer can act as 80% of the interface.

 

For $400 I guess I am at the Arturia unless I could find a used XK-2 and the XK-2 can transmit the MIDI data necessary for VB3 and if ......well this depends on a bunch of if's that I do not know a darn thing about.

 

I have never touched the Casio. I know nothing about them.

[Bossbandbob]

Thanks CEB. I forgot to mention light weight is desired as well. The Novation Mk2 did get better reliability reviews than cheaper models. I'll check out the Arturia as well. It seems those Casios hold up pretty well.

[allan_evett]

One of my students just picked up the Keylab 61; this has to be the best built, and easiest to use controller - right out of the box - that I've tried. And I've owned several 61 key controllers, all of which were eventually sold. Too many cases of the controller starting to fly off the stand when doing organ smears, etc.. The Arturia actually seems heavy enough to stay put. Plus the keyboard and control functions feel solid. I just ordered one for myself...

[Dana.]

Yamaha MX49 is worth checking out.

[Sam Mullins]

One of my students just picked up the Keylab 61; this has to be the best built, and easiest to use controller - right out of the box - that I've tried. And I've owned several 61 key controllers, all of which were eventually sold. Too many cases of the controller starting to fly off the stand when doing organ smears, etc.. The Arturia actually seems heavy enough to stay put. Plus the keyboard and control functions feel solid. I just ordered one for myself...

 

I've always been tempted by these. Just looked at them again and one thing struck me: It doesn't make much sense to buy the 49 key version; they have put the wheels to the left on that version so it is only slightly shorter than the 61 (where the wheels are on top.) I guess some people are sticklers about the wheels being to the left of the keyboard and this would fit the bill.

 

I played one in a store a while back and the action was to my liking... and they do feel like real instruments rather than plastic toys. But it's another thing in the category of "that's a really good value and it pushes by GAS pedal... but I don't need it and it would probably sit in the corner and collect dust"

[CEB]

I want to get one I want the soft synths. I THINK I can map the presets I would use and could implement this like hardware and never need to look at a monitor live. I want to start a thread on the MiniLab software but probably not today.

[Markay]

Is there any well made, reliable 61/49 key midi controller under 400$ good for organ out there? I'm not asking here about the feel of the keys, sliders or knobs. It seems like many reviews I have read about the Edirols, Novations, M-Audios and others complain about dead or intermitent keys, dead screens, software that won't work, etc. I'm thinking that the Casio XW P1 is probably the better choice than any of those in that price range with a lot of its own sounds for back up.

I have had no issues with my M Audio in 18 months of gigging. If you require, as I do, a controller with 9 faders and sustain plus expression there is not much to choose from outside m Audio, Novation, Arturia or Studio logic or possibly CME. As I understand it they all use Fatar keybeds, like Nord and many others so I wonder how much real difference there is between waterfall semi weighted 61 note keybeds from the one supplier.

 

The most obvious weak point is the USB connecter but they all have them so you need to take care that this doesn't get bumped with all of them.

 

[Delaware Dave]

Novation Impulse 61 key. 9 sliders for Hammond, 14 pounds, $339.

[Bossbandbob]

Yamaha MX49 is worth checking out.[/quote

No sliders for DB control on the MX. I'm actually using my MM6 now for an organ controller with a Korg Nanocontrol2 but don't like the sliders (and having to hook up yet one more thing).

[Dana.]

Yamaha MX49 is worth checking out.[/quote

No sliders for DB control on the MX. I'm actually using my MM6 now for an organ controller with a Korg Nanocontrol2 but don't like the sliders (and having to hook up yet one more thing).

You didn't specify that it needed to have sliders. To quote you: "Is there any well made, reliable 61/49 key midi controller under 400$ good for organ out there? I'm not asking here about the feel of the keys, sliders or knobs."

 

So, with that criteria, I gave you a solid option. After all, plenty of people play organ on keyboards that don't have sliders.

 

[Bossbandbob]

Thanks to all for your suggestions. I have a bit of research to do! I'm considering selling a bunch of gear and getting a Casio PX5S for my bottom board and one of these controllers with VB3 for the top.

[midinut]

I want to get one I want the soft synths. I THINK I can map the presets I would use and could implement this like hardware and never need to look at a monitor live. I want to start a thread on the MiniLab software but probably not today.

 

I'll watch for your MiniLab thread. I bought the hardware and of course got the software for free. The most fun I've had with my clothes on in quite a while.

 

To the OP. I give you another vote for the Arturia KeyLab 61. Built like a tank!

[Craig MacDonald]

Is there any well made, reliable 61/49 key midi controller under 400$ good for organ out there? I'm not asking here about the feel of the keys, sliders or knobs. It seems like many reviews I have read about the Edirols, Novations, M-Audios and others complain about dead or intermitent keys, dead screens, software that won't work, etc. I'm thinking that the Casio XW P1 is probably the better choice than any of those in that price range with a lot of its own sounds for back up.

 

I've used an Edirol PCR-800 in my studio for years and had no issues with it.. and there's a lot of things that I like about it.. it comes with MAP's that work with VB3, and the sliders work well as drawbars for two reasons, 1st because they're close enough that you can grab them all with one hand, and second, they have a relatively long through (distance front to back) compared to other controllers. The Roland A-800 PRO is the replacement for the Edirol PCR-800, but it doesn't seem quite as well built as the Edirol, and I can't vouch for it.. but the drawbars do seem to be the same.. DON'T buy a controller with square piano keys because you will not be able to do glisses and palm slurs easily.. so I would never use the Axiom controllers for organ (my opinion of course).

 

I do see a lot of value in using a keyboard with it's own sounds rather than simply a controller, because things can easily go wrong with VST set ups.. IF you do it right you can build a pretty reliable VST rig but all too often I think they're just pieced together with whatever laptop and interface you happen to have, and this isn't reliable.

 

At the $400 price point I think that your Casio XW-P1 is a good idea.. although I hate the drawbar organ sounds in it! However you're just talking about emergency back up (or maybe not because you can use the Casio both as a controller and as a sound source). If I was building a VST rig I would not use controllers I would look for an inexpensive keyboard that has it's own sounds for backup.

 

Given your $400 budget I don't think there's a better organ controller than the Casio XW-P1, but getting it for $400 could be a stretch,as they're on sale at Sweetwater for $499 (but I do recall them blowing them out up here in Canada a few months back) and stay away from the Studiologic VMK-161 controller, it's beyond your budget and it sucks for a number of reasons.

 

Good luck sorting all this out.

 

 

[Reezekeys]

I use a Roland A800 also but in my case it's my main gigging axe as well as a studio tool. After about a year of ownership I must say I'm a little disappointed with it. The USB port does not grip cables tightly anymore, causing the cable to loosen as I play and leading to stuck notes and a broken connection to my computer. The LCD is small and hard to read - it's all the way over to the left and the view of the last character in the display (which is the value you're sending) is blocked by the bezel if you play seated. While they did add features compared to the previous controller I used (Edirol PCR-M80, two generations back), such as the ability to split the keyboard, pads, and aftertouch, they also took some away. You can no longer program the sliders as drawbars from the keyboard as you could with the PCR-M80; you need a computer now (that's one of a few parameters like this). Pressing the shift key on the keypad causes all the LEDs to "lock" in their lit or unlit state. Also, it's my contention that they plain forgot to add a "panic" function. It's described in the manual but doesn't exist in the keyboard! And they crippled the semitone transpose function compared to the M80 - you need to dig through layers of menus to eventually set a single transpose value which then stays in memory. I better not say anymore about that, since it got several forum members to bring out the blowtorches!

 

Looking at what else is out there at the price points of these keyboards, I'm coming to the conclusion that they are not meant to be gigging instruments. I'm resigned to opening them up, fixing whatever I can that breaks, and keeping them going as long as I can - which will probably be 2 or 3 years max. Then I toss it and it's on to the next one. I do plan to check out the Arturia, although it's twice the weight of the Roland. Anyway I hope this helps anyone looking into buying the A-PRO or other ~$400 61-key controller.

[AnotherScott]

No sliders for DB control on the MX.

And over your $400 target, with no controller features to speak of, it basically just gives you keys. If all you need are the keys, you could buy a Yamaha NP-11 for a lot less money.

 

So I guess a question would be, what controller features are you looking for? It does sound like you want the 9 sliders. You may also want to be able to program buttons to call up presets (i.e. send definable MIDI Program Changes), or be able to assign buttons to things like percussion and CV. It's too bad you don't like the nanokontrol, because putting that on the NP-11 would probably be about your cheapest solution, and yamahas are generally pretty reliable.

 

I don't know anything about its reliability, and I haven't played one myself, but I wonder if a Samson Graphite 49 might be worth looking at.

[allan_evett]

I tried the Yamaha MX-61 as a live keyboard controller with on-board sounds; even for single channel / sound control it was an epic fail as a controller. It's main strength is being a compact, sound powerhouse. Also, it's set up for certain types of DAW control - though not as a detailed sound editing source.

The PCR-800 is a well appointed live and studio controller, but it's a little on the light side. There were still times it slid slightly on the stand.

For a keyboard controller with 'back up' sounds, I'd take the Casio XW-P1 over anything else currently available. It has full, four-zone MIDI / USB control; it's rather comprehensive as a 61 key controller.

[Craig MacDonald]

+1

I agree with Allan on this one.. I think that when you consider all factors, and given what I know about the Casio, I think the Casio XW-P1 may be your best bet both as an inexpensive controller with sliders for drawbars, with half decent internal sounds (except for the organ..ugh) to use as emergency backup..

[AnotherScott]

There are a couple of demo/customer return XW-P1 on eBay at the moment that creep in just barely under the $400 mark.

[Bossbandbob]

+1

I agree with Allan on this one.. I think that when you consider all factors, and given what I know about the Casio, I think the Casio XW-P1 may be your best bet both as an inexpensive controller with sliders for drawbars, with half decent internal sounds (except for the organ..ugh) to use as emergency backup..

 

I think I agree. I have the WK-7500 now and it basically has the same drawbar organs and sim as the Casio XW-P1. Alone not that great but sounds very good with a Vent (except for a real fast Leslie setting phasing due to its harmonic beating on some chords/drawbars which I have previously posted about. Slowing down the fast rotor speed helps a bit.) No expression pedal input either but I can work around that. Either way it would be a good choice as a controller with built in back up. I have a friend in Canada that somehow scored one brand new on the last Boxing Day for 200$! Gee if I end up with that on top and a PX5s as my bottom board I'd be a gigging Casio endorsement. Hey Mike does that earn me a discount? LOL I must say that with Mike Martin's help on an issue I had with the WK, Casio's Customer service was outstanding. Actually the PX5s probably has the same organ as well(it actually sound better than the other two on the Casio site demos at least) and with 88 keys could be split for organ when needed as an emergency back up for one of the other controllers mentioned on top as well. It does have 6 sliders. Only problem is that they are hammer weighted keys. I don't mind playing organ parts on synth style keys but I would have to try the PX5's piano weighted ones first to see if would work for me as at least as a backup.

[keyman27]

I've had the Arturia KeyLab for a month or so. Had to send the first one back because of a dead screen. Gotta be honest, I wish I had just sent it back and not got another one. I haven't been able to easily figure out how to use it as a controller, although I haven't tried that hard yet. Guess I need to find time to RTFM. The thing really is like a tank, or at least it's heavy like a tank. The keybed is not great... the plastic keys have a bit of sideways wiggle in them.

[Bossbandbob]

Why do so many keyboards have screen problems now? Is it just because there are more keyboards now or has quality control gone downhill? Is it mostly lower quality screens in cheaper boards?

[bluzeyone]

I've had m-audio controller for 4 years now .. while the action is nowhere near my yammy, I can honestly say I beat the dog pee pee outta it and it never layed down on me .. Reliable fo sho..;-)

[Markay]

+1

I agree with Allan on this one.. I think that when you consider all factors, and given what I know about the Casio, I think the Casio XW-P1 may be your best bet both as an inexpensive controller with sliders for drawbars, with half decent internal sounds (except for the organ..ugh) to use as emergency backup..

 

If the XW-P1 catered for an expression pedal input I would have bought one instead the Axiom when the XW-P1 was released. Similarly if the much loved VR-09 had standard midi for the drawbars and all other controls I would have bought one to use as a controller. If the PX5S had 9 long throw faders same story.

 

Similarly most other low end hardware boards do not fully implement midi or do so in a non-standard way.

 

Midi controllers do it all using standard midi, anything else is a compromise and requires additional controllers or surfaces to add the missing functionality. (Expression or faders etc.) You would really have to hate the action on all of the dedicated midi controllers to be bothered complicating a live rig to overcome these shortcomings for organ use.

 

The Axioms and Novation are the mainstream choice at the low end. I might add that I have an Avid era Axiom. The current Axiom Air range is produced by the same folk who do Akai and Alesis contollers.

 

If I had to replace the Axiom now I would have considered the Arturia keylab, but it seems to have the same shortcomings as the Axiom and Novation based on comments above.

 

Maybe Casio will add expression to the XW-P1 by the time I decide to replace the Axiom. Although it too has a lip on the keys so it would not suit Craig despite his recommendation.

 

If lips on the keys are important you will find the available options considerably more limited.

 

 

[NewImprov]

I have a first generation Axiom 61 (I guess that was Avid era?) that I bought new, and it has been through literally hundreds of gigs, was used on the road for several years, and has been hauled to many gigs without a case since then. A couple of the slider shafts have broken off, but that's entirely my fault for mishandling it, but otherwise, it's perfectly functional after all these years.

[David Loving]

I have an Alesis Q88 I like. They make a Q61 I think

[Mark Schmieder]

Yep, another solid vote for the Arturia, which I doubt I'll ever sell. I considered upgrading to the new version until I saw that it is deeper, meaning it won't fit on my computer table in front of my computer monitor.

 

One of the nice things Arturia thought about was to provide a power switch, so that you don't accidentally cause a voltage spike if things aren't hooked up throughout your system the way you think they are.

 

Built like a tank, great ergonomic feel (of course this is subject to each person's tastes), and perfect MIDI implementation with 100% resolution (quite unusual; most keyboards discretize -- and inconsistently -- the MIDI values and thus don't cover the full continuous range from 1 to 127).

[Reezekeys]

most keyboards discretize -- and inconsistently -- the MIDI values and thus don't cover the full continuous range from 1 to 127.

Not sure what you mean by "discretize." Round the values up or down to a fraction of the 127 possible? Where did you hear that most keyboards do this?

[Bossbandbob]

As usual I found the solution for an organ controller and backup (at least for now) right under my nose. I will be getting one of the above recommended controllers (probably not the Casio) when I decide on the right one and find the right deal. With their track record of problems mentioned here and elsewhere I think if anyone gets one of these they should get it new. Between the special sales and 15-20% discount offers they won't cost that much more than used and if you use a credit card that gives an extra year warranty you have repairs covered. There are also of course extra protection plans offered by many retailers some I have seen for around 20$ a year. Unless I get it dirt cheap I'm not buying one without a warranty.

For my bottom keyboard and back up I'll use a Casio but it will be the WK-7500 I already have. I have tweaked the pianos to sound pretty decent and even made one sound exactly like the piano I like on my Yammy p50m. The ep's and lot of the other voices are quite good through external amplification and it shares many with the XW-P1 anyway(the sitar BTW is outstanding). It is light weight (19 lbs), has 76 semi weighted synth style keys (which are easily split and then saved in registration banks)and I can play acoustic piano parts AND organ parts fine on it (particularly with tendonitis issues I have been fighting). Although the drawbar organs and internal sim are so-so and the same ones as the XW-P1, they are slider and button adjustable and will work OK as an emergency back-up. At some point I will upgrade the WK but whatever I get has to have all the features I mentioned.

[bluzeyone]

Cool beans and taters! I have a wk 7500. It feels surprisingly good! Just remember tho that that board doesn't have midi connections .. It uses a usb port.