correct piano technique

[Mr. Nightime]

It seems to me that one way to tell if your hand posture is close to correct is to see how your hands and arms feel after a 4-5 hour gig. If you can barely move, the posture is wrong. If you're still loose, and could possibly continue playing, then you're at least doing something right.

About the only time I start to feel a little tired is if I have just played a long solo with a large amount of octave runs. But, after my solo is done they come right back by the end of the song.

[d.r.e.a.m.i.s.t]

From the link provided by Jazz+, I found a video demonstrating what the author called the thumb over approach. Is this what you're recommending, Dave?

 

The video is here (do not click the link directly, right-click it and save):

http://members.aol.com/chang8825/TOscale.wmv

 

Edit: Somehow clicking on the link directly results in unreadable characters. You need to download it first and view offline. Right-click on the link and select Save As, change the extension to .wmv as needed.

 

2nd Edit: Oh, and by the way, the author mentions that the first 2 runs were done using thumb over, and the next 2 runs were thumb under, to illustrate the difference.

[Dave Horne]

That link doesn't give me a video, just a bunch of strange characters.

[d.r.e.a.m.i.s.t]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

That link doesn't give me a video, just a bunch of strange characters.

Strange, indeed. By the way, I got the video using a download manager. I tried clicking on the link directly and I got the same thing, a bunch of strange characters.

 

Anyway, you may right-click at the link and select Save As. Change the extension of the saved file to .wmv if needed.

[BluesKeys]

Quote Dreamist

The video is here:

http://members.aol.com/chang8825/TOscale.wmv

---------------------------------------------------------

Dreamist,

I couldn't open this link.

 

I have taken one leason from an area Jazz player who is extremly good. His first comment was that my wrist was too high and I needed to lower my hands to get any speed.

 

I was taught to play like you are holding an orange. I know that is not the right way but after 41 years of playing this way, I am just not

able to keep them level with the key bed. I inevitably bring my hands up so I guess I am destined to play slower. I like to think it makes me more tasteful.

[d.r.e.a.m.i.s.t]

Originally posted by dream:

Quote Dreamist

The video is here:

http://members.aol.com/chang8825/TOscale.wmv

---------------------------------------------------------

Dreamist,

I couldn't open this link.

Please download the file and view offline. I also experienced the same problem viewing the video online.

[wfred]

Thanks to this thread for calling my attention to an absolutely amazing jazz artist, Horace Parlan!

[Joe P]

Dreamist,

Thanks for the video, this is what I thought was going on with thumb-over. Right click, save-as, add .wmv extension, no problems.

Regards,

Joe

[Jessica T]

I have a question about how you guys finger chords. The PBS guy said, "Use whatever combination of fingers feels comfortable for you." and I kind of took this to heart. For my left hand, I use my pinky, 4th and index fingers and add my thumb for 7ths. For my right, I use my index, middle and 4th fingers and add my pinky for 7ths. Is this wack, or can it work? (My only contact so far has been with a synth action board).

Also, where do your fingers lie on the keys? I usually place mine about half way between the edge and the black keys. I feel I get the most leverage this way. But then, my wrist has to turn a little sideways in order to reach the black keys. For instance, playing a C major chord, my hands are as you discribe above; flat from the forearm to the wrist, and fingers slightly curved downward with my thumb laying sideways very close to my index finger. But when I go for a B flat major chord, my wrist has to turn so that my middle finger points to 2:00 so that my pinky can reach that B flat. This sounds like a bad idea, but what should I do instead? I know this thread is no substitute for good one-on-one instruction, but I'll have to wait a few months until I'm finished with school. Was I wrong to go ahead and try to start learning? It's only been about 8 months. It seemed that I'd waited long enough to start making music and I just couldn't wait anymore, but this thread got me a little depressed for a little bit thinking that I'd done myself a disservice. But great points everyone, especially Dave.

 

P. S. you may want to look at the demo videos for the RD700SX just to watch their hand position! That helped me a lot.

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by DeCato:

So, if I understand correctly (??), you could see the TO as playing 2 seperate pieces (CDE and FGABC in the C major scale) starting from the thumb with a quick slide of the hand in between to make the slide as transparant as possible. During the slide you keep the fingers parallel to the keys.

 

This would make a legato impossible but would indeed be unnoticed in fast passages.

 

Please tell me I am right this time

No - the slide is happening as you play the first three notes. Its not play-slide-play. If it were you could only play as fast as your big arm muscles could control the motion of the arm. And because those are big muscles on long levers, that is slow. You want the wrist to move continuously without effort from the arm. To me it feels like my fingers are legs running under the body which is my hand. When you run you don't stop the forward motion of the body on each stride.

[Byrdman]

Now how on earth did that end up as a double post?

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by Joe P:

Dreamist,

Thanks for the video, this is what I thought was going on with thumb-over. Right click, save-as, add .wmv extension, no problems.

Regards,

Joe

I have a problem with his technique - his wrist is bobbing up and down. It should remain at the same level throughout. There's no way you can take that action up to speed. I get the impression his elbows are flying around too. Could just be thinking that because that's what I used to do.

[d.r.e.a.m.i.s.t]

Originally posted by Byrdman:

Originally posted by Joe P:

Dreamist,

Thanks for the video, this is what I thought was going on with thumb-over. Right click, save-as, add .wmv extension, no problems.

Regards,

Joe

I have a problem with his technique - his wrist is bobbing up and down. It should remain at the same level throughout. There's no way you can take that action up to speed. I get the impression his elbows are flying around too. Could just be thinking that because that's what I used to do.

That's why we need a good demo video, preferably shot from several angles.

 

Any volunteer?

[gangsu]

Originally posted by Jessica Tomlinson:

But when I go for a B flat major chord, my wrist has to turn so that my middle finger points to 2:00 so that my pinky can reach that B flat.

hi jessica, just move your hand forward so that you don't have to twist your hand. Sure, your index finger will be closer to the fallboard, and that's one reason why some pianos are less pleasant to play than others. If it's not a well-balanced key, it'll be harder to depress. But that's not your problem.

 

Edit. haha, I'm not sure if you're playing a 4-note chord or a triad, but same difference. Move in.

[Ed Coury]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

If someone can place their hand under your wrist while you are playing and can flip your wrist away from the keyboard in one swift motion, you are playing correctly. If your wrist stays locked in place, you are using the wrong set of muscles. See a teacher who can correct this.

Also, if someone can take the lid on a Steinway grand and slam it on your hands while you're droning on about being the master of technique, you've probably gone on way too long...see a therapist who can correct this...

[Dave Horne]

Also, if someone can take the lid on a Steinway grand and slam it on your hands while you're droning on about being the master of technique, you've probably gone on way too long...see a therapist who can correct this...

Ah yes, a post from Ed. Anytime I make a post he has to comment. He rarely adds to the thread but feels the need to comment nonetheless.

 

I didn't revive this thread Ed.

 

I only passed on the original information because I learned the correct way to play when I was 28. I started playing when I was 12 or 13. None of the teachers I had in high school or college ever corrected the basic flaws I had. I sought out help when I was 28 and was devastated to start from the very beginning. I have played incorrectly and correctly ... and I can easily spot and demonstrate how to accomplish both methods of playing. That's the reason this is very important to me.

 

As a matter of fact, my wife and I had two guests in our house yesterday. We live in a small village and there's a Chinese 'take out' within 100 meters of our house. The couple who owns the restaurant knows from speaking to my wife that I'm a professional pianist. The mother is very proud of her 14 year old daughter and she wanted her daughter to meet with me. My wife made the appointment and the mother and daughter stopped by yesterday.

 

This girl plays amazingly (especially for her age). She has many classical pieces committed to memory. She goes to the university on Saturday's to receive music classes. She also plays using the wrong set of muscles.

 

Her top forearm muscles become tight after a short time of playing. Her teacher at the university talks about technique to her but does not offer concrete ways of dealing with this problem. I spent a great deal of time showing her how to correctly approach the keyboard and gave her concrete ways to check her own playing.

 

Ed, I am not God's gift to the piano. I only learned at 28 how to correctly play. I had the good fortune to take ten lessons from a guy who explained and demonstrated technique in a very concrete manner. That's the reason all of this is very personal to me, I lived through it - it not just words.

 

But, thanks again for your comment Ed.

[gangsu]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Ah yes, a post from Ed. Anytime I make a post he has to comment. He rarely adds to the thread but feels the need to comment nonetheless.

I wouldn't take it personally, Dave. Ed has that rare ability to nail any one of us in one foul shot. You're not so special.

[Dave Horne]

Sue, it wasn't the first time, thus my reaction.

[gangsu]

So smarten up and don't let it happen again.

 

Hi Ed.

[NachoBA]

Hi, it´s my first entry in this forum. I will introduce myself quickly, I live in Buenos Aires and started piano lessons this year. My teacher follows (I don´t know if the correct term is "school" but I will use it anyway) the Sandor school.

I read this thread carefully and if I´m not misunderstanding you Dave, it´s seems that Sandor´s teachings are pretty much in line with what your are saying here.

 

1. TO not TU

2. Minimum effort, quick relaxation of muscles after being used

3. Moving wrists

 

Isn´t it Dave?

 

One additional question...I keep practicing scales using TO from the begining and the gap when I switch from the 3d. or 4th. finger to the thumb is still noticed. I know I´m really a beginer...my teacher ensures me that eventually my scales would be even and that I would be able to play legato.

I´m skeptikal...je!

 

Anyway it´s good to hear that it´s seems I have a "good" teacher.

 

cheers

[K K]

Originally posted by Ed Coury:

Also, if someone can take the lid on a Steinway grand and slam it on your hands while you're droning on about being the master of technique, you've probably gone on way too long...see a therapist who can correct this...

Ouch.

[kad]

Many of the ideas about technique discussed in this thread are covered by Abby Whiteside in her classic book: Click Here

 

Reading this book was a major turning point for me as a player. Be warned however that while Ms. Whiteside was a revolutionary teacher, she was not a particulary articulate writer. You'll find that often times you will need to read a sentence several times in order to understand what she is trying to communicate. However, the results are well worth the effort.

 

Kirk

[Garrafon]

Dave, I, for one, appreciate hearing your (and others) insights and suggestions. It is sharing with one another that helps us all learn.

[Ed Coury]

Originally posted by gangsu:

So smarten up and don't let it happen again.

 

Hi Ed.

Helllllllo....perhaps I should mellow....

[gangsu]

Nahhh...perhaps some people could take down their shingle...now that we know who they are.

[delirium]

I knew something was holding me back, although I was (quite fast) but I didnt know what. After this thread and some articles mentioned here I got it Thumb Under!

Solution = Forget about it unless youre playing slow legato.

thanks

[Jazzwee]

I have to resurrect this excellent thread for a few questions of my own. As I do more technically demanding exercises (for example, fast repetitive 16th notes), I'm getting a workout on my back and chest muscles. No muscle tension on my upper forearm but tension on my lower forearm. Fingers are stronger. Any red flags here?

 

I had a little tendonitis on around one of the knuckles after working on wide chord exercises that really stretch the fingers. The doctor injected a little cortisone on it and that seems to be the end of that.

 

Practice is becoming a workout. So far, aside from getting stronger and the tendonitis above, I'm not feeling any pain. But I'm just worried that I'm developing the wrong muscles.

[Dave Horne]

Since you stated you have tension in your lower forearm, that actually means you're playing correctly but just playing too much - take it easy. It's the tension in the top forearm muscle that should raise the red flag.

 

(Before the newbies start commenting on ... everything, take a few minutes to read the entire thread.)

[Jazzwee]

Thanks Dave. The problem for me with playing fast is that it is pretty hard give the muscle a chance to recover. My understanding is that fatigue does not set in when there are moments of tension-relaxation. Doing a fast repetitive pattern using all fingers of one hand, I'm not getting a period of relaxation. When you play fast lines are you able to train your muscles to relax for milliseconds? Think of situation here when one is playing a stream of sixteenth notes.

[kanker.]

There's a big difference between playing lines really fast and playing exercises really fast in my experience. The relaxation comes in to play because when you're gigging or whatever, you're not focusing on how you're playing the notes in the same way that you are when you are running exercises. It's a very different kind of exertion.