correct piano technique

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

I'm wondering if when the arms and wrists are at total rest, as when just sitting in a chair with your arms realaxed and resting on your lap, will the wrist flip away more or less easily than when engaged in playing at the piano. Can the arms and their complex system of pulleys somehow be balanced and held in a way so that they "float" lighter while playing the piano than when they are just lying at rest? I know that in a state of hypnosis the arms can be directed to float upwards, so perhaps with the right technique they can be made to operate "lighter" than their inherent weight?.

I would hesitate to comment on anything re hypnosis - there are some who are skeptical of its existence.

 

The situations you mention you can easily check out for yourself, right?

[Jazz+]

Please ignore my mention of hypnosis, I wasn't asking about hypnosis.

 

I was asking if when the arms and wrists are at total rest, as when just sitting in a chair with your arms resting on your lap, will the wrist flip away more or less easily than when engaged in playing at the piano. I'm wondering if the arms and their complex system of pulleys can somehow balance and hold themselves at the piano in such a way so that they somehow float lighter than when they are just lying at rest?

[Jazz+]

I only mentioned hypnosis because I was once put under hypnosis by a doctor and he was able to talk my arm into floating up in the air without my being consciously aware of it. That experience came to mind in connection with the idea of light arms and hands. At times a meditative state of mind has enabled me to play at my most relaxed, it feels as if I am floating above the keys watching my fingers barely moving.

[Superbobus]

Originally posted by Ohtar:

he dave,

great topic, learnt al lot from it.

my question:

I have a really weird thumb, which i can bend under my fingers easily without moving my wrist, because I can bend it to behind with an angle of 90 degree's. So I always play the "TU" methode. Is it usefull to me to study on your methode??

Hey, I've got a weird thumb too!

Sorry, I'm just kidding you. This is perfectly normal. Well, 90 degrees is a lot yeah.

[RudyS]

Originally posted by Superbobus:

Originally posted by Ohtar:

he dave,

great topic, learnt al lot from it.

my question:

I have a really weird thumb, which i can bend under my fingers easily without moving my wrist, because I can bend it to behind with an angle of 90 degree's. So I always play the "TU" methode. Is it usefull to me to study on your methode??

Hey, I've got a weird thumb too!

Sorry, I'm just kidding you. This is perfectly normal. Well, 90 degrees is a lot yeah.

 

well a lot of people look stranges when i bend my thum 90 degree's to behind. but i find it really helpfull with playing, so no complaints here

[stoo schultz]

Dave Horne says:

 

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, one way to insure you have a knowledgeable teacher is to study with someone who concertizes for a living and who is affiliated with a music college. That won't guarantee that he or she is a good teacher, but it should help to eliminate the bad ones. I would ask around to people you trust and maybe they can personally recommend someone for you. Good luck.

I think this is good advice and it brings to mind some interesting observations. Classical players tend to make the best teachers of technique, but they are generally unable to help you make original music. Jazz players tend to be the best at teaching you skills related to making music, but I think it's fair to say that many are awful at teaching good technique, or even recognizing bad technique!

 

Maybe a good plan for an aspiring jazzer is to have at least two teachers focusing on these very different but equally important areas? Anybody tried something like this?

[platypus]

I have tried that. I currently have a jazz/improv teacher and a classical teacher. The classical teacher is more for technique/theory and the jazz and improv is more for, well, jazz and improv.

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by stoo schultz:

Dave Horne says:

Classical players tend to make the best teachers of technique, but they are generally unable to help you make original music. Jazz players tend to be the best at teaching you skills related to making music, but I think it's fair to say that many are awful at teaching good technique, or even recognizing bad technique!

 

Maybe a good plan for an aspiring jazzer is to have at least two teachers focusing on these very different but equally important areas? Anybody tried something like this?

Well, I kinda tried this two ways: 1. I was fortunate to have a jazz/improv teacher who first learned classical and studied enough classical piano to get a Master's Degree in Classical Performance out of it, with the local university's most demanding teacher.

 

Yeah, he's a monster. So before college I just studied with him. Then in college I was double-concentration piano major in jazz and classical. For classical, I studied with a member of the faculty. For jazz, I continued on with my pre-college teacher with the focus being strictly on the theory, musicianship, and improv techniques attendant to jazz study.

 

I ended up changing my major and not pursuing this intensive level of study, but I'm sure I've gotten something from it. Although you'd think I'd be a better player with all that coaching ...

[marino]

Originally posted by stoo schultz:

Classical players tend to make the best teachers of technique, but they are generally unable to help you make original music. Jazz players tend to be the best at teaching you skills related to making music, but I think it's fair to say that many are awful at teaching good technique, or even recognizing bad technique!

 

Maybe a good plan for an aspiring jazzer is to have at least two teachers focusing on these very different but equally important areas? Anybody tried something like this?

There are exceptions. For example, I'm a classical *and* jazz teacher. Every jazz student of mine must digest ample doses of classical music. I'm not a full-time concert pianist, but I still play chamber music (duos, trios, etc.) quite often. What's funny is, I have people coming to me saying, "I've heard that you are a good jazz teacher, so that's what I want to study with you, in addition to my classical studies with another pianist." Then the contrary happens - someone can play jazz or pop, and wants me to be their "classical" teacher!

[mdlestat]

I enthusiastically resuscitate this amazing thread for the benefit of all mankind.

 

I fricking LOVE this place people. I love it.

[Stephen Fortner]

Excellent thread, and excellent advice. I have nothing to add, other than it's made me acutely aware of how badly my own technique stinks. Then again, I'm standing up and playing unweighted synths most of the time, so my muscles get pretty forgetful when I sit at the piano.

[kanker.]

Originally posted by stoo schultz:

Dave Horne says:

 

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, one way to insure you have a knowledgeable teacher is to study with someone who concertizes for a living and who is affiliated with a music college. That won't guarantee that he or she is a good teacher, but it should help to eliminate the bad ones. I would ask around to people you trust and maybe they can personally recommend someone for you. Good luck.

I think this is good advice and it brings to mind some interesting observations. Classical players tend to make the best teachers of technique, but they are generally unable to help you make original music. Jazz players tend to be the best at teaching you skills related to making music, but I think it's fair to say that many are awful at teaching good technique, or even recognizing bad technique!

My last teacher was a phenomenal jazz pianist (I've never heard better -as good, but NEVER better), but one of the things he told me was I needed to flatten my fingers out when playing. Well, there are two reasons why I sort of ignored this advice - first, although I have large hands (I can reach 10ths comfortably) I have short fingers, so the prospect of trying to comfortably reach the keys with my fingers flat was just not happening, and second I had taken classical lessons for entirely too long to avoid a reasonable amount of curvature to my fingers. It's been quite a while since I took lessons, maybe 8 years, but in the meantime, my own opinions on my fingers has proven to be pretty much dead on. Granted, there are a bunch of non-standard techniques that I use, but at the end of the day, the majority of my playing comes from a 'proper' background. That said, I thumb under like you wouldn't believe. I can thumb under extremely accurately and with no loss in speed (I have some pretty fast fingers), but at the same time it has frequently made me feel like my fingers are glued to the keyboard, that they don't float over the keys in a way that I instinctively feel they should. I think I am grasping the concept here, and it sounds like exactly what I've been missing. I'm going to spend some time working on this, and it's coming at a great time too as I just got a piano (been without one for more than 10 years) and I've been refocusing on technique lately as a result. I think I may even have to talk to a friend of mine who's a concert pianist and see if he's taking students. I have no aspirations to play classical music anymore, but having someone qualified to coach me on my technique sounds like a real good idea right about now.

[DeCato]

It sure would be nice to have a little movie showing the TO style, as I still don't get it

 

Staying parallel to the keys but twisting the wrist at the same time does seem rather impossible to me ... but probably I just misunderstood

 

I'm pretty good using TU, but if TO can get me more speed I absolutely want to learn it.

 

Well, I'll ask my piano teacher next Monday, I hope she knows what you are all talking about.

[kanker.]

The second link that was provided describing the technique is the most clear I think - http://www.jeffreebrent.com/Lessons/posvis.html

[Dave Horne]

Staying parallel to the keys but twisting the wrist at the same time does seem rather impossible to me ... but probably I just misunderstood

___Do not___ rotate your wrist laterally. Keep your fingers always parallel to the keys and simply lift up your hand and slide it over the keys to get to the next note.

 

For example, you're playing a C maj 7th arpeggio (C, E, G, B) up and down the keyboard. The thumb on your right hand (which is glued to your 2nd finger) plays the C with its edge.

 

The 2nd, 3rd and 4th fingers play the E,G and B. Now the tricky part which takes a lot of practice - keep your fingers parallel to the keys and slightly lift up your hand and slide it until the thumb is over the next C. ___Do not___ laterally rotate your wrist to get there more easily. In the beginning you will hear a break in the sound between the playing of your 4th finger and your thumb. It takes time before this goes very smoothly and where you don't hear a break in the sound. You're not going to accomplish this in one day. It took me months before this was second nature.

 

If you rotate your wrist it becomes a bad habit. It won't make any difference in the sound but will affect your ability to play extremely fast. You can have all kinds of bad habits when playing slowly, the trouble is, when you want to play very fast, those bad habits get in the way of your playing and you will be frustrated. You have a lot to keep track of but it will become second nature after months of playing correctly.

 

I hate to say 'trust me, it works', but trust me, it really works.

[Sven Golly]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

___Do not___ rotate your wrist laterally. Keep your fingers always parallel to the keys and simply lift up your hand and slide it over the keys to get to the next note.

I think people are taking the 'always parallel' edict too literally. When playing a legato passage (or, to simplify, the C major scale in a legato fashion), the 3rd finger on E will not be able to stay 'always parallel'; while the rest of the hand moves to the right so that the thumb is over the F, the 3rd finger will no longer point at 12 o'clock (perhaps clock coordinates would be better to illustrate the concept? Not sure), but would be pointing more towards 10 or 11.

 

Or have I misunderstood as well?

 

Edited to say: I think perhaps I have misunderstood... so my question is, how does one achieve a legato passage with this lifting of the hands? Or is that the exception to the rule?

 

Perhaps it's just too early in the day for me.

 

Cheers,

SG

[Dave Horne]

Sven, the big problem will come (on that C maj 7th arpeggio) between the B and the C. Some folks will rotate their wrist to 'make' the C while others will simply slide the wrist with the fingers parallel to the key (with the thumb basically glued to the 2nd finger). They will rotate their wrist and at the same time slide the thumb under the hand - that's what we don't want.

 

By keeping the thumb glued to the second finger the player will not place the thumb under the hand to reach that C. That's a difficult concept for some to practice. At slow tempos it really won't make any difference - the advantage comes at break neck speeds.

 

(Actually all of this as covered somewhere in this long thread and I'm basically repeating what was already written.)

[Sven Golly]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

(Actually all of this as covered somewhere in this long thread and I'm basically repeating what was already written.)

Damn, you got here before I had a chance to edit my original message... I went back and re-read the whole thread, because I thought I recalled this being covered. My apologies for missing that.

 

Cheers,

SG

[Dave Horne]

Sven, the W on my keyboard is finicky - sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I meant to say was and not as in your quote.

[JeffLearman]

hooboy, gonna take some time to read all of this one ... but hopefully worth it. I'm self taught, but schooled piano players who've seen me play said my technique didn't suck as bad as it should, given that. Except when playing ... er, trying to play, Jerry Lee Lewis right hand fast stuff, I am relaxed and I think someone could easily push my wrists away. I don't get cramped up forearms except when keeping up that Jerry Lee thing too long. My striking movement is allegedly good. However, I bet my finger movement through scales and runs is poor -- need to practice it the right way and will be examining the advice above!

 

Whenever I sight read something or play something relatively new, I try to play as fast (translates to slowly) as I can play _without_ making a mistake.

Decades ago, I was trying to play a new piece on classical guitar (also self-taught) when my next-room neighbor, a classical guitar student at university, popped his head through my doorway and said something that I'll never forget:

In order to play that phrase well, you'll have to do it right more times than you've done it wrong!

Of course, this was dispiriting at the time, but it sure is true. Go slow and do it right -- far better than too fast and making mistakes!

 

However, I do find that from time to time it does help to play faster and faster without worrying too much about bad articulation or mistakes, just for a moment, then returning to playing properly. The key is that going too fast has to be the exception, not the rule! I got a lot faster by going slower.

[Joe P]

Folks,

I have tried thumb-over and it is promising. Ascending right hand scales have always been a weakness of mine. I've been practicing thumb-over the last few days, and have come to find that just before the thumb crosses over, it seems I have to pull the preceding finger (either the third or fourth) back and tuck it. The finger contacts the key fine but seems to need to slide into a tucked position. Am I doing something wrong, or is this something I have to get used to? Regardless, I can see the potential for this technique to greatly increase my speed.

Regards,

Joe

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Staying parallel to the keys but twisting the wrist at the same time does seem rather impossible to me ... but probably I just misunderstood

__

David Horne expressed it best - your arm glides smoothly up the keyboard and you play the key as it goes by.

 

But if you are turning your thumb over as you do this you will see that your wrist rocks slightly from side to side as you go. So the fingers do not stay mathematically parallel to the keys.

 

Note that it is quite possible to play arpeggios in this way without using the thumb at all! Of course, its not legato - works well when you are pedalling.

 

Otherwise your fingers would have to collapse sideways while you hold the key. That is a good way to hurt yourself.

 

Note that the fingers remain parallel to the keys on average and the motion (with practice) occurs automatically and its not a commanded action.

[Dave Horne]

I had one teacher (of the two who taught me piano) who gave the visualization of a string pulling your hand from either direction up or down (laterally, of course) across the keyboard.

 

It _is_ possible to play smoothly without a break in the sound with the thumb basically glued to your index finger using that C maj 7th arpeggio as an example. (Some of you have called this the thumb over technique.)

 

At any rate, a forum like this is no substitute for a teacher who is standing next to you with a heavy ruler ready to beat you ... sorry, standing next to you offering solid advice.

[DeCato]

So, if I understand correctly (??), you could see the TO as playing 2 seperate pieces (CDE and FGABC in the C major scale) starting from the thumb with a quick slide of the hand in between to make the slide as transparant as possible. During the slide you keep the fingers parallel to the keys.

 

This would make a legato impossible but would indeed be unnoticed in fast passages.

 

Please tell me I am right this time

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by DeCato:

So, if I understand correctly (??), you could see the TO as playing 2 seperate pieces (CDE and FGABC in the C major scale) starting from the thumb with a quick slide of the hand in between to make the slide as transparant as possible. During the slide you keep the fingers parallel to the keys.

 

This would make a legato impossible but would indeed be unnoticed in fast passages.

 

Please tell me I am right this time

That's correct. You'd be surprised, however, what thousands of hours of practice can accomplish to playing smoothly without breaks at any tempo. It is possible.

 

I've written this several times - what can work at very slow tempos even if you play incorrectly can in fact work at slow tempos. The problem comes when you continue to play with those bad habits at very fast tempos - you'll pay for it every time.

 

If you ever look at a video of a concert pianist playing some arpeggios or scales at very fast tempo, you probably say to yourself ... looks easy and takes no effort. It just takes many hours of practicing to make it happen to look so effortless.

[mdlestat]

I would practically pay to have you place a webcam in above your hand, and then to the side, to show a slow motion example of exactly what you're describing-- Dave? Anyone?

 

This would be such an easy thing to do, and would only take seconds to perform...and would eliminate all confusion almost instantly...

 

Just a suggestion.

 

(If nobody wants to do it here, point me somewhere that I can see the technique you're describing in action)

[Dave Horne]

You don't need a video though that could make it easier to 'see'.

 

Take your hand and place it on the desk in front of you. Your hand is nicely arched and the bottom of your wrist is about at the same level as your finger tips which are resting on the desk top. The edge of your thumb is also resting on the desk top.

 

_Without_ playing, simply move your hand laterally up and down the desk top and keep your fingers parallel to the 'keys' ... while you also keep your thumb glued to your second finger. That's pretty much it for hand position. Playing with the least amount of effort was covered several times in this too long thread.

 

(Of course, you don't keep your thumb glued to your second finger all the time, but you should keep your hand in a compact position whenever you can. If you're just playing one note at the keyboard, your hand is very compact and your fingers are not splayed out.)

[Sven Golly]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Take your hand and place it on the desk in front of you. Your hand is nicely arched and the bottom of your wrist is about at the same level as your finger tips which are resting on the desk top. The edge of your thumb is also resting on the desk top.

Dave, sorry to belabour this, but I have ask you to confirm one thing, and that is the wrist position. Are you really suggesting that the bottom of the wrist is level with the tops of the keys? That is a definite precursor to RSI, as you're supinating the wrist.

 

By your description above, I'm visualizing your first knuckles (closest to the wrist) being above the wrist/forearm level. Is this what you're describing?

 

Cheers,

SG

[Dave Horne]

Sven, for me, at least, the bottom of my wrist is either level with the undepressed white keys or a cm or so higher. How's that for you?

 

(My previous post was done at the desk and not at a keyboard.)

[kanker.]

My hands basically form a constant plane from the big knuckles where the fingers connect to the rest of the hand back through the wrist and the forearm. Granted, they're not locked like that or anything, and my wrists do move vertically when playing, but the majority of the time they are relatively even.