correct piano technique

[Superbobus]

I'm lost in translation.

If you shift the hand, while keeping the fingers parallel to the keys, well... it sound like a jerky move. I guess that's not what it supposed to be and I guess that is because I can't feel the move.

Here's my experience with thumb under playing and what goes wrong all the time.

People play C-D-E and than the thumb is still at C. As a consequence they whack the thumb to the F. The thing is, that the thumb was designed to touch even your fifth finger, so here it goes: play C, than while playing the D and E, move your thumb gradually to the F. At the point where you have to hit the F, your thumb is already there and your hand will move naturally to the right.

You have to practice this real slow, then speed it up and finally scales will be freakin' fast and dynamically equal.

[Superbobus]

Originally posted by Superbobus:

[QB]I'm lost in translation.

With the thumb over method, my problem is the gap. It looks to me you hand is getting jumpy while playing thumb over. I don't get it.

Thumber under is not wrong, the thumb is different than the other ones because you can move it sideways, unlike the other fingers. Now here's what's going wrong most of the times. People play C-D-E and than the thumb is still at C. As a consequence they whack the thumb to the F. The thing is, that the thumb was designed to touch even your fifth finger, so here it goes: play C, than while playing the D and E, move your thumb gradually to the F. At the point where you have to hit the F, your thumb is already there and your hand will move naturally to the right. This is part of the "arm leads the hand" school.

I would like to know more about thumb over, but descriptions don't cut it for me. Are there some video examples or examples of piano players who are using this technique?

[marino]

I'm sorry to be in such a hurry, I would have so much to say on the subject... But Dave's tips are very wise anyway.

 

My only extra advice is to buy and read "On Piano Playing", a book by Hungarian/American pianist Gyorgy Sandor. It's the only 'written' book I know of, which has a clear explanation of all the basic concepts. It's not for absolute beginners - it's full of musical examples taken from the classical repertoire, with indications for the gestures and the types of movement they require.

 

A word of hope for those with small hands: You can still play the piano perfectly, even though you can't do 'everything' those with bigger hands do. Katia Labeque and Alicia De Larrocha both have *extremely* small hands, yet they play the whole classical repertoire. It's a matter of flexibility, practice, and being very conscious of your upper body's weight.

[steve-uk]

yep technique is VERY important - just wish I had kept up the lessons and practiced more. My piano teacher when I was a kid used to make me play scales and arppegios with a pencil rubber balanced on the back of my hand-if it fell off she gave me the added incentive of a rap over the knuckles with a ruler!!!

Happy Days....

[marino]

Originally posted by steve-uk:

yep technique is VERY important - just wish I had kept up the lessons and practiced more. My piano teacher when I was a kid used to make me play scales and arppegios with a pencil rubber balanced on the back of my hand-if it fell off she gave me the added incentive of a rap over the knuckles with a ruler!!!

Happy Days....

It's known as the Hitler method...

I've heard of such things many times, especially in England... What's sad is, while putting a small object on the back of the hand could be a good starting point to demonstrate *initial* hand position, there's no reason to force your hand to always keep such a perfectly horizontal posture. There are several situations where adjustement movements from the wrist and forearm are not only 'permissible', but very necessary. Impeding free arm movements hurts your playing, and can lend to tendon damage.

[88keys4me]

I had the good fortune of studying with gifted teachers who themselves had been trained in the Russian school of technique. Simply put, this approach recognizes that the shoulder muscles, as well as the biceps and triceps, are larger than those of the lower forearm, wrist and fingers. Thus, they are much better suited to tasks requiring strength and endurance, such as playing long, speedy, demanding passages with precision.

 

The challenge lies in translating this macro level capability into one of articulation - which can ultimately be achieved only with the fingers. It is to this end that one should aspire. By developing the relationship among all the bones, muscles, tendons and ligaments from the shoulder to the fingertips, a pianist has at his/her call an enormous amount of power and control, once the requisite synpases have been created.

 

This technique makes possible the reality of true legato, which is based not only upon depression of the keys, but also, release. When this skill has been developed, the fingers thus become merely extensions of the arms and shoulders, and are able to execute the most demanding passages with unparalleled endurance.

 

This approach is somewhat of a rude departure for many (which was my response at first exposure), but after overcoming the inital shock, it produces results beyond imagination: supple wrists, total expressive control of legato and staccato, and freedom from pain, all of which enable artistic interpretation which is otherwise impossible when trapped by restrictive technique which does not take advantage of the complete body's strength and endurance.

 

This was not an easily learned lesson, nor one which remains on call unless kept up with (sadly, impractical for all but those who aspire to concert pianist glory): four hours daily of only scales, followed by four hours of challenging manuscript.

 

However, those who would devote even half the time to what I have described would soon find themselves on the threshold of virtuosity. Where they go from there is their choice, and will be accelerated with the help of a qualifed teacher, preferably, trained in the Russian school of technique.

[Anomaly]

I was lucky to have been taught Dave's method when I was a youngster and it has served me well. But, the one thing I have never seemed to over come is when I am gigging in a band where I have a difficult time pulling the piano out of the mix. When this happens, I change to using my top forarm muscles, they tense up, it wears me out and the next day I feel like I have an advanced case of arthritis. It takes several days of rest to overcome this. Fortunately, I usually have my own stage system, but when I have to depend on a mono stage monitor and there are more than a couple other musicians, I am in trouble. I can't relax my wrists and still play no matter what I do.

 

Anyone have any suggestions?

[Jazz+]

Hal Galper's advice derives from his early studies with Madam Chaloff while student in Boston:

 

http://www.amenablemusic.net/fmb/ffingerings.htm

[RaGe]

Thanks Dave for the advice. You guys have no idea how useful all of this is to me.

[alcohol_]

The eye opener for piano technique for me was not so much how to pas your thumb under or hold your hands loose but how to visualize what you're playing.

 

It was a simultaneous exoerience of finding a book that described my own observations. I noticed that if I was playing popular music or Jazz, I would almost never falter, even excuting complex and difficult runs. However, when playing classical, if I faltered, recovery would be difficult.

 

It was at the time of making that observation I found the book, Piano Technique by Walter Gieseking. In the book he describes a method of visualization and memorization that for me quickened my ability to learn and memorize a piece of music by many factors. The method, which is essentially mental, allows for relaxed observation on one's technique directily. I highly recommend the book.

[Jeebus]

Back when I took classical lessons, I was taught the TU method. Over time, I think my playing style gradually morphed into some hybrid of the TU and the TO method, without even realizing it.

 

Interesting thread.

[Dave Horne]

If you shift the hand, while keeping the fingers parallel to the keys, well... it sound like a jerky move. I guess that's not what it supposed to be and I guess that is because I can't feel the move.

Perhaps 'shift' was not the best choice of words, ... language.

 

The C major scale again, right hand - thumb glued to your index finger and you play C with the side of your thumb. D and E are then played with your index and middle fingers. Now this next part takes practice - lifting your hand slightly above the keys and sliding (instead of shifting?) your hand _keeping_ your fingers parallel to the keys and the when your thumb is over the F you play it.

 

That motion takes practice and your thumb moves very little if at all under your hand (in this example), it's your hand that moves (while remaining parallel to the keys). As an example, try this at your desk - thumb glued to your index finger (fingers nicely arched) and, with your fingers at a 90 degree angle to the edge of your desk, slide your hand from left to right in front or you. (A video is worth a thousand words.) Your hand will pivot laterally from your wrist, but it will be a gradual pivot as you move up and down your desk. With this method you're not reaching under your hand so much with your thumb, you're moving your entire hand as a unit. This takes practice to become second nature (as with anything).

 

I can't explain that any better, but that's the basic principle. If that's still not clear, perhaps someone else can help me here.

 

The bottom line is still - if your top forearm muscle tenses up or if your wrist does not fly away from the keyboard, you're using the wrong set of muscles and you should see a teacher who can help.

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by Anomaly:

I was lucky to have been taught Dave's method when I was a youngster and it has served me well. But, the one thing I have never seemed to over come is when I am gigging in a band where I have a difficult time pulling the piano out of the mix. When this happens, I change to using my top forarm muscles, they tense up, it wears me out and the next day I feel like I have an advanced case of arthritis. It takes several days of rest to overcome this. Fortunately, I usually have my own stage system, but when I have to depend on a mono stage monitor and there are more than a couple other musicians, I am in trouble. I can't relax my wrists and still play no matter what I do.

 

Anyone have any suggestions?

Believe it or not, when I have a nice sound system and I can hear clearly what I am playing, I play even lighter. It's when I can't hear myself that I start playing much harder (unnecessarily hard).

 

Try using a set of headphones so you can hear what you are doing.

[Analogaddict]

Originally posted by Anomaly:

I was lucky to have been taught Dave's method when I was a youngster and it has served me well. But, the one thing I have never seemed to over come is when I am gigging in a band where I have a difficult time pulling the piano out of the mix. When this happens, I change to using my top forarm muscles, they tense up, it wears me out and the next day I feel like I have an advanced case of arthritis. It takes several days of rest to overcome this. Fortunately, I usually have my own stage system, but when I have to depend on a mono stage monitor and there are more than a couple other musicians, I am in trouble. I can't relax my wrists and still play no matter what I do.

 

Anyone have any suggestions?

Boring indeed, but try to learn playing even without hearing with your ears - if you can hear the sound of your licks and voicings in your head, you will be less dependant on the actual aural feedback. When I´m in situations where I for some reason can´t hear myself as clearly as I´d like to, I rely on my ears more than ever - if I already know the sound of my playing, I can rely on that. Except for that one gig where the bass player leaned over after the first tune saying "dude, we´re tuned in E flat to save the singer´s voice..!"

 

/J nas

[Analogaddict]

I forgot to mention that when I´m not trying so hard to hear myself, I play lighter than when I struggle! And - of course - this only applies to for instance loud bar gigs, parties and not to accompanying singers or playing jazz or whatever...

[pete psingpy]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

[QB]

Do you pivot your hand "laterally" at the wrist to get the thumb to move forward? Or does the wrist not pivot but rather the whole arm moves smoothly? At some point, the thumb s going to have to do some moving under the 2nd and 3rd fingers, isn't it?

If you move your hand laterally (your hand sideways from the wrist), you will actually lose speed as you play faster. Your hand / fingers should always be parallel to the keys at all times. That last sentence might not seem to make sense, but it really does when you play extremely fast - you do not want any wasted movement.

QB]

I think I finally understand "thumb glued to index", but I'm not sure.

 

If you play a C scale this way, after you hit the E with finger 3, the thumb is still next to the index finger. You lift your hand up and move your hand sideways (not turning at the wrist) to get the thumb on the F. You keep your hand parallel to the keys without pivoting the hand at the wrist. The forearm moves with the hand to bring the hand foreward and to get the thumg over the F.

 

The way I play scales, which I gather might be called "thumb under", I would play the C scale like this:

After hitting the D with finger 2, I start to curl my thumb under to reach for the F. I turn my wrist somewhat while I reach. Then turn the wrist back the other way as I come off the F to G, etc.

 

For a fast scale, the hand is turning back ond forth quickly, and I think this is what you mean Dave by wasted motion.

 

Do you always use the "thumb glued to index" technique, even for slow passages? If I understood previous messages, it most suited to very fast runs.

[Dave Horne]

Do you always use the "thumb glued to index" technique, even for slow passages? If I understood previous messages, it most suited to very fast runs.

Of course, you can't keep your thumb 'glued' to your index finger all the time, but it's a good thing to keep in mind just the same.

 

The trouble occurs when you get in a bad habit when playing slowly, you might continue to keep that bad habit when you play fast.

 

One more thing about the thumb, when I first started playing with that new teacher, he noticed that my thumb was being used like a finger and not like a thumb. It's a good idea to always play with the side of the thumb, so even if your thumb goes under your palm, you are still playing on the side or edge of your thumb.

 

An important thing to always keep in mind is to keep your fingers parallel to the keys at all times, no lateral motion between the hand and the wrist. I think if you do that, the thumb will fall into place.

 

There is no substitute for a good teacher in these matters. I am not an expert here, I just listened to that one teacher and gave everything he said a lot of thought and it has worked wonders for my playing.

[Superbobus]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

If you shift the hand, while keeping the fingers parallel to the keys, well... it sound like a jerky move. I guess that's not what it supposed to be and I guess that is because I can't feel the move.

Perhaps 'shift' was not the best choice of words, ... language.

 

The C major scale again, right hand - thumb glued to your index finger and you play C with the side of your thumb. D and E are then played with your index and middle fingers. Now this next part takes practice - lifting your hand slightly above the keys and sliding (instead of shifting?) your hand _keeping_ your fingers parallel to the keys and the when your thumb is over the F you play it.

 

That motion takes practice and your thumb moves very little if at all under your hand (in this example), it's your hand that moves (while remaining parallel to the keys). As an example, try this at your desk - thumb glued to your index finger (fingers nicely arched) and, with your fingers at a 90 degree angle to the edge of your desk, slide your hand from left to right in front or you. (A video is worth a thousand words.) Your hand will pivot laterally from your wrist, but it will be a gradual pivot as you move up and down your desk. With this method you're not reaching under your hand so much with your thumb, you're moving your entire hand as a unit. This takes practice to become second nature (as with anything).

 

I can't explain that any better, but that's the basic principle. If that's still not clear, perhaps someone else can help me here.

 

The bottom line is still - if your top forearm muscle tenses up or if your wrist does not fly away from the keyboard, you're using the wrong set of muscles and you should see a teacher who can help.

I get it.

My impression is that this is more like flying over the piano instead of playing into it and most useful when playing "from the finger", but I'll give it a shot.

I used to have a teacher who was talking about twenty or twenty five ways of tickling the ivories, so there's always room for one more.

Bootom rule for me is that the moves are economical and with a maximum of result.

[Jazz+]

"My impression is that this is more like flying over the piano instead of playing into it"

 

I like that description, it's the way I play fast bebop using a light and flowing technique. My arm extremity glides smoothly as it hovers above the keys as I let my fingers fit the shapes of the scale I'm running. As I glide my arm along it's as is it's being pulled by and invisible string or sliding along an invisible cable in the air up the keyboard.

 

I also like the idea mentioned in an earlier post of imaging playing the piano like a flute, that gives me a good image of a light touch.

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

"My impression is that this is more like flying over the piano instead of playing into it"

 

I like that description, it's the way I play fast bebop using a light and flowing technique. My arm extremity glides smoothly as it hovers above the keys as I let my fingers fit the shapes of the scale I'm running. As I glide my arm along it's as is it's being pulled by and invisible string or sliding along an invisible cable in the air up the keyboard.

 

I also like the idea mentioned in an earlier post of imaging playing the piano like a flute, that gives me a good image of a light touch.

The 'string' pulling your hand from the side was also mentioned by a teacher I had; I had forgotten that. That's an excellent way to imagine the hand moving along the keyboard. Thanks! (More info to throw at my occasional students.)

[RudyS]

he dave,

great topic, learnt al lot from it.

my question:

I have a really weird thumb, which i can bend under my fingers easily without moving my wrist, because I can bend it to behind with an angle of 90 degree's. So I always play the "TU" methode. Is it usefull to me to study on your methode??

[Jazz+]

dbl post

[RudyS]

he dave,

great topic, learnt al lot from it.

my question:

I have a really weird thumb, which i can bend under my fingers easily without moving my wrist, because I can bend it to behind with an angle of 90 degree's. So I always play the "TU" methode. Is it usefull to me to study on your methode??

[RudyS]

sorry. double post.

[RudyS]

oops

[Jazz+]

Don't classical organ masters play more from their fingers alone and with less arm weight than pianists? I would think so since it takes less weight to depress an organ key than a piano key. So, don't organists play with a lighter downard pressure than pianists and wouldn't their wrists flip away even easier?

[RudyS]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

Don't classical organ masters play more from their fingers alone and with less arm weight than pianists? I would think so since it takes less weight to depress an organ key than a piano key. So, don't organists play with a lighter downard pressure than pianists and wouldn't their wrists flip away even easier?

yes, I think you are right. I play classical organ, and I always have been taught to play only with my fingers, and not move my arm/wrist!!

to play forte on a piano, I have to move my arms a lot more.

[Jazz+]

I'm wondering if when the arms and wrists are at total rest, as when just sitting in a chair with your arms realaxed and resting on your lap, will the wrist flip away more or less easily than when engaged in playing at the piano. Can the arms and their complex system of pulleys somehow be balanced and held in a way so that they "float" lighter while playing the piano than when they are just lying at rest? I know that in a state of hypnosis the arms can be directed to float upwards, so perhaps with the right technique they can be made to operate "lighter" than their inherent weight?.

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by Ohtar:

he dave,

great topic, learnt al lot from it.

my question:

I have a really weird thumb, which i can bend under my fingers easily without moving my wrist, because I can bend it to behind with an angle of 90 degree's. So I always play the "TU" methode. Is it usefull to me to study on your methode??

First, these are not my methods per se. As long as you do not suffer from the two items I numbered in my initial post, it wouldn't hurt to try what I suggested, but the final judgment should come from a teacher working with you. This thread is no substitute for a good teacher.

 

No tension in your upper arm at all, your hand will fly away from the keyboard? If you have either of those two issues to deal with, everything else is secondary and they should be corrected.

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

Don't classical organ masters play more from their fingers alone and with less arm weight than pianists? I would think so since it takes less weight to depress an organ key than a piano key. So, don't organists play with a lighter downard pressure than pianists and wouldn't their wrists flip away even easier?

I was an organ major in college and organists talked less about technique than pianists in general.

 

A Tracker organ keyboard becomes progressively more difficult to play with the addition of more stops. It's been so long since I played a pipe organ, I would hesitate to offer any thoughts re them. (One thing worth mentioning re pipe organs is the delay in sound - it would drive me crazy.)